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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Flat spot with Holley 350 carb

Started by kerryann, April 17, 2014, 07:31:40 PM

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kerryann

im actually only 27 years old.  nowhere near old enough to have enough experience or have gone through the learning experience most others on here probably have with the old american made stuff.  the pinto is my girl friend's car (that's why the name kerryann).  The car and all the technology used here was made long before we were born.  It's also the newest vehicle we own, and we have many cars and trucks.

Hope I havent come across the wrong way to anybody.  we got this holley 350 for $20 at a swap meet after reading peoples experiences with the swap on this forum.  wanted to see if i could make it work.  it's been a fun project so far.  fairly simple and purely mechanical which is what i like.  think i am on the right track now, just have to put the time in.  we work on this one outside and weather up here in new england has been awful, hopefully it warms up soon.

As far as the 8" rear, im sure it wont be a bolt in, but i dont mind chopping the mounts and moving them.  fabrication is another aspect of the hot rodding hobby i really enjoy.  supposed to end up with 3 mini stock 8" rears out of pintos and the one from the mustang II all for under $100 so i'll see what i can come up with from the pile.

74 PintoWagon

Well, I'm not quite that young, LOL... Well, I've always known them to be called dash pots even the dealers called them that, back in the 70's we ran a tunnelram on the Altered for a while and the damn thing would never shut down right away so we put one of them on end of problem, I used them on a lot of vehicles after that they work great..

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Dashpot/_/N-8ve9e?itemIdentifier=615831_0_0_
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

Oh, and you took that rather well, most young people now will get all in your face over the slightest perceived slight, not that I was trying to, as I was not. And not that I know how old you are either. Just like to give credit where due. So hard to find people who don't freak out over every little thing now................the people here onsite are by and large quite reserved I've noticed. I probably fly off the handle more than most of them (not my better side unfortunately).

Actually dashpot more accurately describes the rubber damper that just slows down throttle falloff for decel emissions or to stop stalling at throttle rolloff. But yes I have heard the term bandied about. How about 'sol-a-dash' or combination solenoid AND dashpot? Ain't heard that one in a while.

74 PintoWagon

Those are called dash pots, I love them things..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

FYI, you can run a simple manual choke cable easily to the 5200, I drove one like that for years.

Thinking the leaves on M II rear are different width than Pinto, could be wrong. Affects mounting pads. I had one around for a while, considering using it until looked at that. Rear won't be 8" if 6 or 4, rather the 6 3/4" one. Someone will jump in to correct me..................

BTW I made good use of a solenoid on the throttle that dropped the idle speed setting to completely closed throttle when key cut off. I had no pinging but the very dickens with after running (dieseling) after motor killed.

74 PintoWagon

Don't worry about initial total is critical, run the total as close to 36 as you can go before it pings(no vacuum), if you can't go any more than 27 total before it pings then you'll have to run better gas, either that or you're running very lean now??. Have you read the plugs after a good run??..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

understood.  but pinging hasnt popped up until i got greedy trying to get close to 34-36 total.  if i back initial down to 6-8, it goes away but my total suffers (around 26-27).  haven't changed vacuum advance at all yet.  i would like to limit it as talked about before.  if there any way to know that youre close to a reasonable range of vacuum + initial by checking initial timing in park with vacuum advance hooked up?  or even in drive at idle with someone else holding foot on the brake so im able to check my initial timing?  im sure i can limit vacuum, but how much is too much?

this is my first 4 banger ive tuned.  spent a lot of time over the years with holleys on small block v8s.  yes carbs with smaller primaries like edelbrocks, rochesters, carters, etc might get better gas mileage but ive never been able to match performance.  i persoanlly hate the edelbrocks, just good for cruising around.  im pretty good with the rochester 2 barrels just because i have to be for some of the circle track classes ive run.  as far as holleys, most people just instantly go for a holley that's too big.  the best combo ive used on a chevy 350 is a 450 cfm holley mech secondary 4 barrel carb with no secondary accelerator pump (non double pumper).  it required swapping to a 1850 model 650 metering block to get the right fuel curve.  that carb was dead reliable and could hit full throttle from any rpm, dead stop to 3/4 throttle cruise with no hesitation or flat spot at all.  cruised and drag raced with it.  got very good mileage for a 350 v8.  i like tuning and having all the small parts interchangeable.  only thing that kills them is throttle shaft bushing wear.  once they are worn they will never perform right.  there are a lot of ill performing holleys driving around but when they are right they work.

that being said, i know there is nothing wrong with the factory carbs.  i wanted to clean the car up, get rid of the 1980 vacuum mess, and use something im familiar with.  we now have a header, no catalytic converters (took out two) and no smog pump.  wasnt sure what small parts id have to buy to rejet if necessary or tune the stock weber.  some of these old carbs like rochesters can be a pain to get the small parts for and for me to be satisfied with the weber i would have had to eliminate all fast idle, choke, or any other annoying automatic mouse traps on it.  i warm my cars up with my foot in the colder months.  can't stand something that chooses rpm for me or locks out my throttle blades.  no offense to anyone on carb preference but i was just intrigued on here with the success people have had with the 350 holley.  so far i am pretty happy with it.  the stock weber is still sitting around but i doubt i'll try and go back.  i supposed if i get a spare moment i'll do some investigation and figure out where the issue with it is.

im more interested in getting a better flowing intake now.  and i may also switch to an 8" rear that a friend has out of a mustang II to go from 3.08 in the little 7.5 to a 3.40.

i type too long of posts haha, thanks for all the help, all opinions and ideas are much appreciated, this is one of the most helpful forums ive been on so far.  i will report back once i make some progress on this thing.

amc49

X2..........

'holleys are all pretty much the same and the easiest to work with............'

I for one do not agree, if you truly understand how a Holley works then you already understand how others work as well, it becomes simply a take-it-apart-and-see-how-they-do-it exercise after that. The 32/36 is mucho more adjustable than the Holley and dead reliable. It will get better mileage too. The flat spot here may well be Holley induced, or the difference between calling one booster online vs two, four cylinders will initiate flow faster at a single venturi than two of them.

Start simply switching metering blocks out on Holleys and quickly find out about how they are 'all pretty much the same'................taint so. I've certainly straightened out enough of them that were butchered by so-called 'experts'. Correct metering block on carb is check #1, you'd be amazed how many mess up a block and swap wrong one to have the carb go to crap, then they cannot figure out what's wrong. Or piece one carb together from five then want $150 for junk. If numbers don't match I don't touch them, a waste of time. Having a Holley on it is much more likely to run into trouble later, they always want to screw with it. The other brands highly likely to have a virgin carb, they are scared of them. You have no idea how many Holley sales I stifled back in the day by simply changing or fixing a $20 issue on a carb the person was afraid of. They always wanted to 'put a Holley on it' (sound familiar?), much of the time they realized later it was a mistake. Holleys never get as good mileage as OEM carbs, they are metered rich for performance and utterly destroy emissions levels. When they insisted I always added 'keep the old carb!', often it went back on the car.

Holleys are great for power but almost nothing can repeat the driveability of an OEM carb in proper working order on almost every vehicle out there. They don't spend millions in carb/engine research for nothing there.


74 PintoWagon

The initial won't help the pinging, if it only pings at cruise you need to limit the vacuum advance. First thing you need to do is set the centrifugal vacuum is last, get the right curve and set the total where you want it, drive it without vacuum hooked up, it shouldn't rattle through the rpm range if it does you'll have to back it down some, after it's right then set your vacuum advance.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

hey thanks for those links, thats exactly what i needed.  going to fine tune the centrifugal advance next chance i get.  should solve my timing problem.  the car must be set on 10L right now, or have a problem there thats not allowing it to fully advance.  i'll worry about the speed that it all comes in at after.  the pinging should go away if i can limit the initial.

im never going back to that 36/32 carb. still have it sitting in the basement if someone is interested in one.  car was undriveable with it.  i know they can be fixed.  just don't want to learn those carbs, don't care for the dozens of vacuum lines everywhere either.  holleys are all pretty much the same and the easiest to work with.  flat spot is just about gone.  i'll get back on that issue as soon as im happy with my timing curve.  might be on the hunt for a better intake soon as well.  thanks for all the help so far.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

IIRC used to be Ford and GM used different advance springs. Mr. Gasket made a set of earlier curve ones for each. We used the GM ones on AMCs since the distributor was a GM Delco-Remy one.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: kerryann on April 28, 2014, 09:48:17 PM
i'll try and find a tach and see when im getting total in.  if i need to change can you use the different color springs like crane sells for the chevys?  not sure if the ford is a different size,  already have some if the chevy springs fit.

im all for altering what i have.  im sure i can limit the vacuum easy enough.  if i set this thing at 36 total, what is an acceptable range for initial?  i was told 10 earlier in this thread.  i just can't do that without modification. that's 26 degrees centrifugal advance. i'll alter the weights/stop if i have to, just curious if its even necessary if some of you are running a very high initial without issue.
Check the advance slot if you're on the narrow one rotate it to the wide one, if you're on the wide one grind a little don't take much though to make a difference. Don't remember about the springs just take one off and compare them. I just bought a reman Duraspark for mine and it's out to lunch, my initial is 18 and all I get is 32, gotta dig into that soon..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

AT this point, you would be better off going back to the stock 36/32 carb unless you just want all these problems.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

kerryann

i'll try and find a tach and see when im getting total in.  if i need to change can you use the different color springs like crane sells for the chevys?  not sure if the ford is a different size,  already have some if the chevy springs fit.

im all for altering what i have.  im sure i can limit the vacuum easy enough.  if i set this thing at 36 total, what is an acceptable range for initial?  i was told 10 earlier in this thread.  i just can't do that without modification. that's 26 degrees centrifugal advance. i'll alter the weights/stop if i have to, just curious if its even necessary if some of you are running a very high initial without issue.

amc49


74 PintoWagon

You should be at 36 get yourself an adjustable canister or one with a shorter slot. BTW, what rpm does your total come in?? it should be all in by 2700-2800...
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

it is pinging very little.  just frustrated that my total is only at 32 and initial is at 11.  i figured if a lower static centrifugal number could be achieved, when combined with vacuum it might not ping then but still advance to 34-36 range which ive been told is optimum with these motors.  i can bump the timing back to 8 or so initial and probably be all set but then my total is back to 29 or so.

74 PintoWagon

I got the lower EFI intake seems like the one to use. Changing the centrifugal will not change the vacuum advance, you need to limit the travel of the vacuum unit that's why you get adjustable ones, or one that has less travel, if it's pinging very little you could back it off a degree and try it don't take much sometimes.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

74 pintowagon which intake are you going to use?

i do have what i think is a slight ping rattle at light cruise, especially up a small grade so i think i may need to either limit vacuum advance or increase my centrifugal range higher than 21 degrees.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: amc49 on April 28, 2014, 02:01:38 AM
How do they feel here about copyrighted material from a company that is still in business? Some places get pretty uptight about it, you can be sued over it. I see this in the onsite registration agreement...........they refuse responsibility in the standard disclaimer and put it all on me, don't really wanna go there.

'You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.'

I do see some stuff in the onsite articles from Car Craft and Hot Rod. Is Car Craft magazine still around?
Yep they're still around, if articles are on the net and you can copy/paste than it's not copyrighted anymore, you see articles pasted on every board around, every time I run across something copyrighted it won't let me copy it, so far I haven't been able to anyhow...

http://www.carcraft.com
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Clydesdale80

Quote from: amc49 on April 28, 2014, 02:01:38 AM
How do they feel here about copyrighted material from a company that is still in business? Some places get pretty uptight about it, you can be sued over it. I see this in the onsite registration agreement...........they refuse responsibility in the standard disclaimer and put it all on me, don't really wanna go there.

'You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.'

I do see some stuff in the onsite articles from Car Craft and Hot Rod. Is Car Craft magazine still around?

ok, I hadn't thought about that.  I sure don't want to get anyone in trouble.
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

74 PintoWagon

You always have vacuum at at idle that's ok, it idles a lot smoother and the throttle can be closed a lot further exposing less transfer slot. You can get aftermarket canisters that have an adjusting screw and some have a shorter slot to limit the travel, but if it don't rattle at cruise you're ok. I'm new to these little motors so I'm learning this stuff, but just looking at these intakes the lower EFI gotta be way better, already have the intake and header for mine just need the carb, the Autolite I want seems petty hard to find but as soon as I find one I'll be doing the switch, adapter don't look hard to make, already found a chunk in the scrap, er, I mean material bin to make one.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

74 pinto wagon, i have read that article before, straightened me out on where to run the vacuum.  my only reason for thinking ported may work here is because of the very high advance saw at idle. it's most likely fine under load.  i didnt know if there was adjustable vacuum canisters for the ford distributors. ive used the crane adjustable canisters on the gm distributors and they work well.  i still feel as though i may need a bigger range of centrifugal advance.  i only get 21 degrees out of it.  to get 36 total that gives me an initial timing of 15 degrees.  Should i grind the weight or look for a different set?

After reading about some other distributors on the early models, a 1980 2.3 wouldn't have a timing retard port on it would it?  i only see one vacuum port and it definitely advances the distributor.

As far as the intake and carb, i only switched to the holley 350 for ease of use.  Wasn't so much concerned with increasing hp.  The stock weber is an octopus of vacuum lines and it kept sticking throttle position at half to 3/4.  Must have been some fast idle setting issue or something wearing out, but wouldnt go away even when warm.  these little cars can be hard to stop at a stop sign on wet pavement when the throttle doesnt return.  that is one thing i cant stand so we just switched to the holley since i already now them inside and out and all tuning parts are readily available.

A 2.0 intake is the way to go?  What about late model intakes off mustangs and rangers?  Isn't the EFI intake a good swap?  I think those use a 4 barrel throttle body but an adapter could be used for the 2 barrel right?

amc49

How do they feel here about copyrighted material from a company that is still in business? Some places get pretty uptight about it, you can be sued over it. I see this in the onsite registration agreement...........they refuse responsibility in the standard disclaimer and put it all on me, don't really wanna go there.

'You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.'

I do see some stuff in the onsite articles from Car Craft and Hot Rod. Is Car Craft magazine still around?

Clydesdale80

Quote from: amc49 on April 26, 2014, 07:36:51 PM
Found what I was looking for-the 350 Holley may well be a moot point.

June 1983 Popular Hot Rodding, '2.3 Liter Ford Power Tricks' article by Dave Vizard.........

The stock 2.3 intake is a bottleneck past about 250-275 cfm carb. He flow tests the stock intake with stock 5200 and then same intake with 350 Holley, both flowed while bolted to a head. The 5200 carb flowed 117 cfm including air filter, the 350 flowed 119.

That's TWO measly cfm for the bigger carb, it doesn't help there at all, the manifold kills it.

The article also shows the Offy plus 390 Holley 4 bbl. does not flow as well as the 2.0 intake with adapter on the 2.3 plus a Holley 2 bbl. Even with the 2.0/2.3 mismatch that occurs there because of different runners.

Does anyone know where to find this article online? If not, would it be possible for you to scan and upload it?  I'm sure many people on this site would find it interesting.  I searched for it but google didn't turn up anything this old.
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

I did ever thing I could think of to 2.3 intakes and it only made them worse. I welded them, ported them, added dividers, cut-welded-beat-ground and in ever case, it ran the same. Then I talked to a Ford tech who told me that on the dyno it made no difference what carb was used, the 2.3 put out the same HP. Why? Cause that's all the intake would flow. JUNK!!!!
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

While one of the first things you look for is for the runners to be even, it is more about area. Shorter runners can be slightly bigger in size and have the same area as longer ones with smaller diameters. How Edelbrock made millions with the Torker intakes, the runners were all different sizes. They assured you in every set of instructions that if you matched ports to head you just destroyed the manifold. The engine sees the area more than the length since they are all too short anyway, tuned length has them more like EFI manifolds now, or much longer.

I do not know if the 2.0 intake has different areas in runners or not but Vizard swore by the fact the manifold was also very efficient runner to runner. Like 93% or so. So sometimes appearance can be deceiving. Part of it to me is the much better plenum shape, which just blows a 2.3 plenum all to h-ll. The 2.3 has jagged points sticking out and dead flat with no room to turn at all. EGR plate just makes it worse. Worst of the worst there. The 2 & 3 are even worse, half the port is missing inside the plenum so maybe 2 inches long. All hard angles and calculated to not flow smooth. Airflow loves gradual turns, i.e. the 2.0.

Motors can be funny things, sometimes what looks right is not, that article pointed that out about the stock 2.3 intake as far as just viewing it from the outside. It's a real disaster once you look under the carb and there's no fixing it.


Srt

Quote from: jeremysdad on April 26, 2014, 11:07:03 PM
IT IS a pretty good stock intake...but the short 2&3 runners...it should be even...the runners need to be even! :)


i had a manifold that came over from europe (don't know if it was from the UK or Germany) on my 2.0 that had the #'s 1 & 4 runners meet the plenum at the inside (cylinder head side) and the #'s 2 & 3 runners meet the plenum at the outside (fender well side).


made for a more favorable combination of runner lengths.


it was a Ford OE part but from what i haven't a clue.  in my case it did help with fuel distribution issues concerning #'s 1 & 4 running lean at high boost levels.


the occurrence of melted pistons in those holes was darn near eliminated.  prior to the use off this manifold those two rascals were draining my wallet pretty fast!


the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!