Mini Classifieds

Custom Pinto Project

Date: 06/12/2016 07:37 pm
99' 2.5l lima cylinder head

Date: 01/13/2017 01:56 am
Holley 2305 progressive 2 bbl carb 350cfm

Date: 10/11/2019 11:13 am
Holley 4bbl carb. & Offenhauser intake.

Date: 08/09/2018 07:49 am
1976 (non hatchback) pinto (90% complete project)

Date: 07/10/2016 10:17 am
1978 Pinto Wagon V8
Date: 04/28/2023 03:26 pm
Crankshaft Pulley
Date: 10/01/2018 05:00 pm
New cam

Date: 01/23/2017 05:11 pm
Pinto Wagon
Date: 05/25/2018 01:50 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Flat spot with Holley 350 carb

Started by kerryann, April 17, 2014, 07:31:40 PM

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jeremysdad

Quote from: dick1172762 on April 26, 2014, 11:01:43 PM
Racer Walsh once told me that the 2.0 intake with a 500 Holley 2 barrel, made with in 5 HP of the best he ever got with weber side drafts. And this was on a dyno. Best stock intake ever???? Sure sounds like it.

IT IS a pretty good stock intake...but the short 2&3 runners...it should be even...the runners need to be even! :)

dick1172762

Racer Walsh once told me that the 2.0 intake with a 500 Holley 2 barrel, made with in 5 HP of the best he ever got with weber side drafts. And this was on a dyno. Best stock intake ever???? Sure sounds like it.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

Found what I was looking for-the 350 Holley may well be a moot point.

June 1983 Popular Hot Rodding, '2.3 Liter Ford Power Tricks' article by Dave Vizard.........

The stock 2.3 intake is a bottleneck past about 250-275 cfm carb. He flow tests the stock intake with stock 5200 and then same intake with 350 Holley, both flowed while bolted to a head. The 5200 carb flowed 117 cfm including air filter, the 350 flowed 119.

That's TWO measly cfm for the bigger carb, it doesn't help there at all, the manifold kills it.

The article also shows the Offy plus 390 Holley 4 bbl. does not flow as well as the 2.0 intake with adapter on the 2.3 plus a Holley 2 bbl. Even with the 2.0/2.3 mismatch that occurs there because of different runners.

74 PintoWagon

That article is on just about every automotive related site out there, I snagged it from a Ford site this time, LOL. Don't know what the confusion is though..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Clydesdale80

I just read this on another forum the other day lol.  There seems to be widespread confusion about this topic.
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

74 PintoWagon

You want vacuum at cruise for more advance that's where the mileage comes in, you can get adjustable vacuum canisters to adjust the amount of advance if it starts to ping at cruise.... Here is an article about vacuum advance that will help understand the purpose/function of vacuum advance..

TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren't fully-deployed until they see about 15" Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don't work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15" Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will "dither" in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15" Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that's fully-deployed at least 1", preferably 2" of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8" of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don't understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.
__________________
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

i thought that was the case but when driving the car around with a vacuum gauge hooked up it still pulls vacuum at a cruise.  drops down to 6-7" until you go past half throttle or so.  im only mentioning this because it may be seeing a lot of advance at a cruise, and this is the same at light cruise whether ported or manifold.

74 PintoWagon

I never checked it since it's all out to lunch anyhow, but initial and total without vacuum is what I set, mainly total. Even if you have 40 at idle with the vacuum when you get on the throttle it all goes away anyhow and you're on mechanical until you back off the throttle.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

im having the same problem.  if i set this car at the initial 6 degrees they recommend id be at 27 total.  id be happy if i could get around 10 initial with 34-36 total but can't do it.  have you ever checked to see what your initial is with no load with vacuum hooked to the manifold?  i was seeing 40 degrees at an idle.  seems a little ridiculous.  this car pulls 15" vacuum in gear at idle when hot and over 20" hot in park.

74 PintoWagon

That's not mine just a pic I snatched, timing depends on your application but I don't think you want more than 36 total maybe 10-12 initial though just have to try it and see, if it pings then you have to back it down some or run better gas, I always hook up the vacuum to manifold vacuum, ported is for smog. Mine is all out to lunch right now, my initial is around 18 an total 32 and it comes in too late, I'm surprised it runs as good as it does.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

ah, i can see it now.  so the stop in your picture is located on the weight that says 21R correct?  this would give you 21 degrees advance?  looks pretty easy to get a little more.  can you flip the weights around to use the 18R and limit to 18 degrees advance?  in my case im thinking i need more.  what are your initial and total timing settings?  where do you have your vacuum hooked and what is your initial and total in park with vacuum hooked up?

74 PintoWagon

Here's the Ford unit, the numbers stamped indicate the amount of advance it has, they are available with different slots which limits the advance but it's very common to grind them to give more advance travel done it many times, also you can increase or decrease the rounded edge of the weights to speed up or slow down the time it takes the weight to go to full advance, you use the springs to get it to full advance at the rpm you want..

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

kerryann

ok.  i have not looked under the cap here so im not sure what the advance mechanism looks like.  but changing the advance limits by grinding weights is pretty common.  almost all gm distributors will give 24 degrees advance, but there are different shaped weights available, instead of buying these many people grind them down to change the built in stop in their profile and open up the range.

i know this is a ford and could be totally different.  but since this is a 1980 and basically from the height of bad emissions ideas, is there any chance this distributor doesnt advance 24 degrees?  11 initial and 32 total would indicate only 21 degrees. the hood sticker tells you to set initial at 6 degrees.  that will give me about 27 degrees total.  id rather not modify anything if possible.  is there a chance the distributor is worn and hanging up at some point?  just had to replace a gm hei distributor recently because of how worn the pins and bushings were, the weights had grooves worn into them, timing was erratic.

the pinto timing is consistent so it shows no sings of the mechanical pieces being worn out but doesnt seem to give enough centrifugal advance to accomplish 34-36.  UNLESS 15-16 degrees initial is ok.  im open to ideas.

amc49

Hmmm..

You CANNOT recurve the distributor to get more total centrifugal advance range. The stops are the upper limit and if you add spring to bring idle weights in so lower number then the high speed will be slower too and less number then on the upper end. Recurving only moves around what you already have limit to limit. Lord knows I've done enough of them.

Yes the restrictors could be pressed in too far.

You want 12.5 A/F even on the street at full throttle or piston melting time. Lean only when not under full load. All PCMed cars do that when they go open loop at full throttle.





kerryann

i understand how the weight system works.  ive never had to do it with my v8s but by grinding away some of the stop points on the weight you can increase total advance.  if i had the other problem you can weld to the weights to tighten up the stops and take advance range out.  if there was concern of losing mass on the weight you can always go to lighter springs to quicken the rate the advance comes in at.

why i thought of this was the fact that i can only get 32 total with an initial setting of 11.  this seems to tight of a range.  vacuum advance is a whole different issue.  its always better to run full manifold vacuum on the v8s if possible.  what i am considering in this case with the 2.3 is trying to run ported to limit advance at idle since im seeing 40 initial with no load when using full manifold vacuum.  this just seems excessive.  by recurving the distributor to get more range i can run a much lower initial timing setting.  then when hooked to manifold vacuum it would be back up in a reasonable range.  also when vacuum drops out when opening the throttle up i would have timing come in right at the desired 34-36.  does this make sense?  dont want to pull my distributor apart if this doesnt seem necessary.  can always tack weld to get back to square one but its a lot of work i'd like to avoid if my timing numbers seem reasonable.

these are the racer walsh restrictors:
http://www.racerwalsh.zoovy.com/product/RWA1218/carb-restrictor.html

i dont remember what the spec is on them but they are untouched.  i know i could try drilling and use wire to get back but i figured that they are plenty big enough, especially since they are designed for circle track.  i understand the difference between circle track conditions and street.  i race circle track myself.  very different carb tuning between the two.

the only thing i could think of that could be hindering the restrictors is if somehow when the drill broke through the metering block passage and hit the back wall of the passage it left a divot.  Perhaps theres divots that the ends of the restrictors are sunk into now that they are pressed in and are being further restricted.  not sure if you guys can visualize what im saying.  im probably over thinking things.  it's worth a check, just very difficult to get those restrictors back out.

i am convinced i have an accelerator pump circuit issue at this point.  it may not be the only problem i think i need to make sure fuel isnt getting drawn out through the squirter leaving and empty shot when i need it at part throttle.  certainly seems that that is the case.  as far as jetting, racer walsh recommends a starting point of 56 with a 350 holley and that is for circle track.  usually its safer to run a richer mixture in circle track.  my engine builder sets his up at around 12.5:1 air fuel.  on the street you can definitely run it leaner.  i have 57 jets in now and have 58s to try.  just seems to be getting too far away from what others have found to work on the street.

this is a stock 42k mile motor.  no internal modifications.  stock aluminum intake.  im not looking to eek out every bit of hp possible, just make a nice cruising car that's easy to deal with.  i know there are some better factory intakes out there.  if i could get one cheap i may go that way down the road.  just trying to get what i have tuned up.  the aluminum ford two hole spacer may be hurting me as well.  got it cheap on ebay.  didnt want to spring for the racing open two barrel spacer that speedway sells.  ive always had better luck with the spacers with bored holes in them rather than open on the street anyway.

sorry for the long winded post.  in short, im still uncertain as to what proper timing is here with vacuum advance taken into account.  the carb flat spot i am still working on but im pretty sure its not related to timing.

amc49

What size hole is in those restrictors????

The ones in the adjustable metering block made for the custom Holley 350 off road 2 bbl. are .042" each. FYI, the main jets vary from a low of 73 to 77 and higher.

amc49

You recurve the advance you already have, it does not change the total amount available from stop to stop. When you mess with weights you are going past that but removing weight SLOWS DOWN advance not increases it. You recurve by using lighter springs on the weights you have. You change the total advance by physically altering the weight setup so that the limit to limit distance is increased.

You certainly don't need any more advance if you're already pinging. You recurve when you drop the vacuum unit.

What compression in the motor, what pistons?

You should be aware that the stock intake is hurting you here, it is garbage on a modded motor, it actually does not flow as well as the carb you're using there. They become a problem at around 300 cfm.

Screw the ministock guidelines, they do not go around the track at light cruise. Pretty much dead in it all the time or dead off it. And why they commonly say this or that jetting works but it then doesn't in the real world of slow cruise and slow roll traffic jams with constant on/off light throttle. If you think still lean then make sure of exact size of restrictors then find some fine wire to add restriction. Figure the size of the restriction hole (area of a circle formula) then the wire diameter size do same thing. Add the two areas together and then find a drill bit that equals that area. Drill restrictors bigger using that bit to get more PV fuel, then you can later add the wire to both holes by looping it into both to get back to the original restriction hole size again if you need to. That way you can get bigger PV restrictions yet still get back to square one.

jeremysdad

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on April 21, 2014, 10:13:46 AM
Guess mine is a morphodite then,LOL because it idles smooth as can be after I hooked up the vacuum the right way(not the smog crap way) and I was able to close the butterflies way down leaving next to no transfer slot exposed, better acceleration and better mileage, oh well, LOL...

I switched mine this morning before I left for work (by flashlight lol), and filled up on the way to work. Did seem smoother overall, and my gas gauge didn't move as much (as it usually would), but I still have to fine tune my idle.

@kerryann: Sorry we mildly derailed your thread. It'a a bad habit we seem to have. :) lol

kerryann

we drove the car with these timing numbers and i can hear what im almost certain is pinging at low rpm cruise, especially going up grades/hills.  thought it was a vibration but its only at certain low rpms under load.  im at about 11 degrees initial and can only get 32 total mechanical advance.  i can easily set it to 34-36, but with vacuum advance hooked up either way im goin to get a very high advance under light cruise.  im worried im going to still have pinging.  36 total will give me about 15 initial.  with manifold vacuum im going to see around 45 at idle.  with ported vacuum it will idle at the 15 but off idle will see more high numbers under load at slow cruise.

with that being said, do i need to recurve the distributor for more mechanical advance?  i know you just grind weights down on the chevys to do this but ive never looked under the cap on this ford so not sure what the mechanism looks like.

i still havent verified the transfer slot position.  i have idle set fairly low.  idle mix screws are 1 1/2 out now.  motor does have some shake to it.

best way i can describe my issue is a wheezing feeling in the mid range.  ive felt it before when running too small of jets in a 4 barrel on a small block.  it doesnt flatten out but stops pulling hard gets kind of erratic.  this feels the exact same way.  on top of it sometimes transitioning from part throttle it does flatten right out to the point of just about stalling and then recovers.  im already at 57 jets.  i have 58s and i think 59s but this is getting past the point of even mini stock circle track tuning guidelines.  it still leads me to believe i have an issue with the racer walsh restrictors not letting the power valve circuit work right.  i will take a picture of where the restrictors sit the next time i have the carb apart.  i drilled until the drill broke through into the passage and stopped.  the inserts are just about a press fit, i pressed them all the way in until they stopped when the contacted the back wall of the passage.  i checked them both for flow by blasting air through them and feeling it at the booster outlet hole.  they both flow, it just seems like not enough.

i did not think of the weight under the squirter possibly causing a problem.  i knew it was to keep fuel from being drawn out but never thought of the flat spot that could cause by being emptied out under vacuum. ill check and make sure that needle weight is there also.

will try some different squirter combinations as well.  still a little confused on timing and what vacuum advance source will work best here but i will see what i can come up with.  i'll report back soon.

74 PintoWagon

Guess mine is a morphodite then,LOL because it idles smooth as can be after I hooked up the vacuum the right way(not the smog crap way) and I was able to close the butterflies way down leaving next to no transfer slot exposed, better acceleration and better mileage, oh well, LOL...
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

If you mean uneven like miss no. All fours shake though, the forces at TDC and BDC are different because of angles. The reason why so many complaints of vibration on fours. It drives Ford nuts on the FWD cars. That single rubber mount does not work nearly so well as two 90 degree opposed ones like these Pintos have. Only way to stop that shake is with balance shaft. All three zetecs I have shake, you can feel it as they idle, the hydro mount they use there is tightly tuned for idle rpm, the shake immediately disappears as soon as engine goes off-idle. The hydro mounts explode and common, the Chinese ones almost vibrate as soon as installed. I had to rig two of mine to simply quit seeing everything double. Could not find aftermarket mount that didn't shake, the Ford part way too expensive for my liking. On Focus cars that shake will vibrate the entire dash assembly which seems to be tuned to shake at idle. Ridiculous. They dropped one of the engine mounts, when they had 4 point the cars shook much less. They've gone to three mounts now and the cars shake like nobodys' business, all of them, the SOHC, zetec, duratech, crap engine mount design there, they've changed it ten times but all they do is get higher in price, they don't get any better. They get all wrapped up in later technology hydraulic type mounts, when all they have to do is make mounts like old Tempos used, again a ninety degree opposed side mount that imitated the ones on Pinto motors, all rubber and easy to make but no, that would be too d-mn easy. The problem is the mounts used now are single plane pure vertical but the forces doing the shaking are at least double plane and not purely vertical, the Tempo mount addressed that issue much better.

jeremysdad

Amc49: So, you're saying (and I agree 100%) that a properly tuned 4 cylinder should have the 'shakes' at idle?

They just do. It's how they roll. They sound fantastic when properly tuned! :) lol

Mine does. I can judge the RPM it by ear. It is currently slightly off, timing wise. I attribute that to the thermostat/weather issue. :) It's been a crazy Spring here in TN. lol

Still running ported vacuum to my vacuum advance. Runs good at 6, initial...soooo...10 is more mileage? I'll do that. Tomorrow. :)

amc49

Yours and do as you will, I'm just saying the engine does not need 40 degrees at idle..............  You can make carb pull off idle fine easily on race engines with no vacuum at all. In short a patch for other issues.

The norm is a slightly fatter fuel ratio at idle to allay the exhaust dilution at low speed but getting carb into the transfer slot is not the way to do that. You lose the transition fuel to higher rpm. Later emission carbs will have smaller idle feed restrictions to lower emissions, the mixture screws begin to lose effect. You can slightly drill out the restriction(s) and get good adjustability back in the mixture screws if they don't seem to have an easily definable point where the screws really kill the engine going BOTH ways, not just lean. You should be able to see too rich as well but often can't with the leaner carb settings. If like that the transfers may well be feeding mixture that is too lean also. More room for a flat spot there.

74 PintoWagon

Did the same with mine, got rid of the shake at idle, better all around performance and better mileage and I'm not done yet..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

slowride

I've gone the opposite direction to get away from the "emission" mindset. I swapped to manifold vacuum for a couple simple reasons. More advance at idle brings up the vacuum which improves the idle (and off idle) vacuum signal which should be ESPECIALLY important to you with the Holley. With a fatter A/F ratio at idle it helps cool the engine (as opposed to trying to lean it out) as well as use the considerably greater advance. Off idle response is better, gas mileage has increased considerably, and timing is easier since you aren't trying to set an arbitrary initial advance and hope you total is right.
I have a spare distributor that is being re-curved to get more out of it since the existing curve was designed to work with ported vacuum and emission controls.... this is NOT how an engine is most efficient power-wise. Decide what you are trying to accomplish and commit to it rather than try to limp more power out of mixed technologies.

amc49

I'll second that, 32 total is too low. No way does idle need 40 degrees, use ported but bump initial up higher to get higher total. That figured and set with no vacuum. You can probably limit the vacuum slot......or even adjust the diaphragm. Used to be a set screw inside the nozzle. May be loctited in place though.

Yes, timing read right. If closing pump cam gap helps then look at shooter size, may need slightly bigger. Using 30 cc. pump I'm assuming, 50 cc. is too much. Need weight (at least one ball) under shooter, the vacuum induced at higher carb flow will evacuate your pump shooter passage if no weight there. Leading to another flat spot if pump not pumped up to refill.

I used to play with cams but after a lot of doing so came to conclusion they all pretty much work the same, and use what comes on the carb, rather use hole size to tune with. Once you stomp it hard enough the 'trying to compress a solid' kicks in and hole the only determinant there anyway. Cam profile means nada.

The way transfer slots work, they are needed to feed fuel like accelerator pump, if too high in the slot idle will be too rich, you then artificially lower mixture with the screws to what is actually too lean at curb idle port (the lower hole that feeds idle mixture in). It still seems right since you are adding both curb idle amount plus some of the transfer depending on how deep into it, but problems then as you go for more throttle, you get a lean spot because the transfer enrichening is already gone. So, often you are too rich followed instantly by too lean, the motor just spits its' guts out. Add pump shot being off and even worse.

At slow cruise to 3/4 throttle you should have a PV opening with that, check vacuum gauge reading against your PV rating. I've always wanted light throttle with no PV but anything over half throttle should have it coming open.

dick1172762

Pintos need 34 to 36 total timing to run right, set without vacuum.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

kerryann

bumped initial timing up to about 11 degrees.  total tops out at 32.  with vacuum hooked up i see extremely high numbers idleing in park.  with manifold i'll see about 40 initial and 50-51 total.  with ported ill see my 11 initial and still will get 50-51 total.  i know the vacuum drops out under load so is this something i should be concerned with or is the vacuum doing its job?  never seen my v8s show numbers that high even with vacuum hooked up.  the straight mechanical numbers (11 32) seem ok.

also im assuming the T|C mark is 0.  i have the crafstman gun with the advance dial so i highlighted the T|C as zero and turn my dial up to 11 and line the T|C up with the pointer.  and again turn my dial to 32 to get total.  does this sound right?  driving around i dont hear any pinging.  car starts fine.  my flat spot is almost gone.  think it only needs further accelerator pump adjustment.  closing the gap up helped this morning.

kerryann

there is a stock motorcraft plug in the car.  i'll get the number.  had the gimmick plugs in a chevy we bought and they fouled up fairly quick.  threw in a used set of autolites and havent had an issue since.

sticker calls for 6 degrees initial but this was a heavy emissions controlled car from the factory.  all that stuff is gone so im going to check and bump it ahead if its that low.  i'll shoot for 10 to start and see what we get.

ive had the carb apart a few times but cant remember if this one is the ball or the rubber check valve.  didnt look to see if the needle/weight under the squirter was there either.  ive had issues with them gumming up before.  can you run without it?

im going to check timing and go after tuning the accelerator pump circuit as well.  going to put a whole new pump diaphragm in and check to make sure everything is working correctly.  i may go to a 58 jet as well and see if the plugs start to color a little more brown.  theres no signs of richness at all so one size i dont think will hurt to try.

don't think we'll need the power valve blocker.  the flat spot is at an odd time. sometime it isnt right off idle and more from a slow cruise to 3/4-wide open throttle transition.  it just struggles for a second when vacuum drops right out to get on the main circuit.  we get no lean backfire through the carb but it certainly seems like its getting the air but just not the fuel.  i'll report back after more testing.

amc49

Since just basically a stock motor there I'd use stock heat range or possibly one stage colder. The stock should work though. I use the brand of plug the car comes with, Autolite or Motorcraft for Ford, AC for GM, Champion for Mopar, etc. I see no difference in any plug on the planet except that the OEM will match the heat range requirement better than someone elses', they commonly split heat ranges to fit their product in other cars.

The plugs I loathe are like Splitfire or E-3, use them and you got took brother, no other way to put it. Gimmick plugs are garbage.