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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Well, just about to get started on my 79 hatchback-long

Started by russosborne, June 23, 2010, 04:44:42 PM

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dga57

Quote from: russosborne on August 07, 2010, 10:23:45 PM
I think by mounting them from the inside, they will work. If I mounted them the way the Pinto ones are, they would look too huge.

BTW, no boom from the welder. No nothing. Probably a good thing, since there is no muffler on it.

Either the battery is dead, the cables on the welder are bad, or there is a real problem. The cables do look pretty bad, and I couldn't find my old battery terminal cleaner. I didn't check the battery itself, I need to just put it on the charger and see what it says. Hopefully between those two it will at least crank. It does crank by hand, so it isn't locked up. Just like on a car, get it to crank, then check for spark, then check for gas.

Or I could go and read the manual for it, and make sure I didn't have something off that was supposed to be on. :-)

Russ

Oh, for Heaven's sake, Russ... don't read the manual!  Don't you know?  Real men NEVER read the manual until they have  exhausted every other possibilty!   :lol:

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

One thing I forgot about the tail lights. I am going to have to remove a lot of the support bracing behind the panel. I will redo it after I get the tail lights mounted, but it will be with either angle or tubing. The back side of these tail lights are huge (compared to the Pinto ones) probably at least 4 inches in depth.
I will be leaving the center area, where the hatch latch is, and out as far as I can.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

I think by mounting them from the inside, they will work. If I mounted them the way the Pinto ones are, they would look too huge.

BTW, no boom from the welder. No nothing. Probably a good thing, since there is no muffler on it.

Either the battery is dead, the cables on the welder are bad, or there is a real problem. The cables do look pretty bad, and I couldn't find my old battery terminal cleaner. I didn't check the battery itself, I need to just put it on the charger and see what it says. Hopefully between those two it will at least crank. It does crank by hand, so it isn't locked up. Just like on a car, get it to crank, then check for spark, then check for gas.

Or I could go and read the manual for it, and make sure I didn't have something off that was supposed to be on. :-)

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

Call me crazy, but I kind of like the tailights.  I'll be anxious to see those completed!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

forgot about pictures of the new welder. not that it looks like one at the moment.
I am actaully thinking about going out and throwing some gas in it's tank and hooking up the battery from the Pinto and seeing if it will start.
What's the worst that can happen? hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Well, today was interesting. I went to the all mustang show at Summit Racing in Tallmadge this afternoon. Met a few people from the mustang forum I still hang out on.
Got to feeling bad seeing the 69 Mustangs there.
So once I finally got home I felt like being destructive.
So I got the grinder out and finally cut the straps on the gas tank, and got it off the car.

Still feeling destructive, I took the grinder to the screws holding the trim on the quarter windows, and finally after much cussing got them out. Damaged the stainless, but at that point I didn't care. At least I didn't cut the gaskets or break the windows.

Still not done being destructive, so I was going to cut out the spare tire well. Couldn't find the corded jigsaw, and the cordless needed charged. so I took a break.

Went back out, and decided to work on the tail lights instead. Did some preliminary cutting on the tail panel on the passenger side. need to cut more, but got too late to make that much noise. Plus the cordless needed charged again(I hadn't fully charged it before).

Pictures below. The one of the tail light clamped on is just to give an idea of how it will look. the plan is to install them from the inside. Oh, and they will be changed to all red lenses. One of the tricks I learned from the II sites. :-)

So I got to be destructive yet constructive and the same time.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Dwayne, already told her, pretty much had to. She does the bills, and keeps track of the bank account.
She is ok with it, just can't spend anymore for awhile. That was my birthday money from my parents, plus a little.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dave1987

1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dga57

Quote from: russosborne on August 06, 2010, 03:40:38 PM
Well, things might get slowed down a bit or ten.

I just got home from buying a welder. Or at least it will weld once again once I get it working.
Bought a Lincoln WeldanPower(spelling?) gas powered ac/dc arc welder. Has a 16 HP engine. needs a bit of work. The head gasket might be bad, not sure. There is a broken wire going to a bank of capacitors, which the seller thinks is why you can't get it to start an arc. I don't have a clue at the moment, if that is all that is keeping it from welding great. I don't expect it to be that easy. It didn't come with cables, but I can get cheap ones for now, once I get the engine running.

I am on a welding site, www.weldingweb.com, and have read some interesting things there in the past about these welders, which is why I bought this one. It would be the answer to my dreams (welding dreams) if I can get it to work. No worrying about if I have 110 or 220 or neither around. :-)

While it may be a bit much for sheet metal, I was looking into the Eastwood stuff, they have a stitch welder and a spot welder that attaches to an arc welder, so that will work.

I am not going to have 2 cents to spend on either of these for awhile. I will still be working on the Pinto, trying to fit the 96 dash in to it, etc, but if anything costs money it will have to wait.

My wife is going to kill me. I had started out telling her I was going to spend $55 on a used 110V 70A arc welder, and this is over budget. But if I can get it to work it will be worth far more than the cost I paid, and far more versatile than that $55 one.

It is still in the back of the Blazer, I need to go out and take pictures. I don't have a clue where I am going to put it, the garage is still full.

Russ

This might be a time for some quiet discretion.  If she hasn't already found out differently, I'd be tempted to let her go on believing it IS the $55 welder!  What she doesn't know probably won't hurt either of you! 

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

Well, things might get slowed down a bit or ten.

I just got home from buying a welder. Or at least it will weld once again once I get it working.
Bought a Lincoln WeldanPower(spelling?) gas powered ac/dc arc welder. Has a 16 HP engine. needs a bit of work. The head gasket might be bad, not sure. There is a broken wire going to a bank of capacitors, which the seller thinks is why you can't get it to start an arc. I don't have a clue at the moment, if that is all that is keeping it from welding great. I don't expect it to be that easy. It didn't come with cables, but I can get cheap ones for now, once I get the engine running.

I am on a welding site, www.weldingweb.com, and have read some interesting things there in the past about these welders, which is why I bought this one. It would be the answer to my dreams (welding dreams) if I can get it to work. No worrying about if I have 110 or 220 or neither around. :-)

While it may be a bit much for sheet metal, I was looking into the Eastwood stuff, they have a stitch welder and a spot welder that attaches to an arc welder, so that will work.

I am not going to have 2 cents to spend on either of these for awhile. I will still be working on the Pinto, trying to fit the 96 dash in to it, etc, but if anything costs money it will have to wait.

My wife is going to kill me. I had started out telling her I was going to spend $55 on a used 110V 70A arc welder, and this is over budget. But if I can get it to work it will be worth far more than the cost I paid, and far more versatile than that $55 one.

It is still in the back of the Blazer, I need to go out and take pictures. I don't have a clue where I am going to put it, the garage is still full.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Hmmm, maybe my computer at home is different then this one. I could have sworn there were 6 pages already.
Oh well.

Thinking about going wild this weekend. My wife is going to be in Myrtle Beach SC for her son's wedding. Her mom paid for her trip, we couldn't do it. I am glad she is getting to go.
Anyway, been looking on Craig's List. Found a small and affordable (for me) arc welder that I am going to go look at Saturday morning. It is a Campbell Housfield(spelling?), one that WalMart used to sell. It is just a 115V unit, welds up to 70amps. Which is about all my house electrical can handle. :-(
thinking it might be easier to use than my mig that doesn't have gas. Plus Eastwood has some neat things for arc welders, a spot welder attachment and a stitch welder attachment, both of which will work with this arc welder. This way I can actually get some work started on the welding stuff I need to do.

Really wish I could get a used Lincoln tombstone, but they run on 220V, and the cheap ones on Craig's list are all about 150-200 miles from me. Plus they are still about double what this one will cost. $55, figure I can afford that. Already have gloves and a couple of helmets, need to get some welding blankets. Need to get the gas tank off the Piinto FIRST!!!! :-)

Going to WalMart tonight, wife needs a few things for her trip, and I am going to see if they still sell the ford stereo removal tool. Funny, this 96 has the stock radio and cd player, and it has Ford's theft deterrent mounting(the holes you have to put the tool in) yet you can buy those tools all over, or even use a bent coat hanger. Some deterrent. Mainly deters the owners from changing the stereo I think.

Another sign of my stupidity, I am working on taking the 96 dash apart while it is in the Pinto, instead of cleaning off the work bench.

Russ

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

hmm, apparently you can't preview any pictures you add, and then once you post, you can't remove them if you made a mistake. So here is take two.

got a question.
On my car there is what sort of looks like something supposed to be a cross member on the inside of the car, behind the front seats, where the bottom of the rear seat bottom sections bolt on to. These are not quite touching the transmission/driveshaft tunnel, but do go out to the inner body panel. They are spot welded. See picture.

I am thinking about doing two things with these, and don't know if it is a good idea. Well, one idea is questionable.
One is I am going to use these as the mounting points for the front part of the box I am going to build. Inside this box will be the battery on the passenger side, and the fuse box and assorted electrical stuff. If you cant picture this, the battery will be in one seat well, the other stuff in the other one. This will be my electrical room.  :lol:
This I have no questions about. Pretty straight forward.

Now, for the real question. I am thinking about adding some metal and welding these to the tunnel. It is only about a quarter of an inch, maybe a half. Also will seam weld them. Ok, that I am doing regardless. Sorry, brain dead right now and getting cramps from typing.
The question is I am thinking about using these as the rear connecting points for my home made subframe connectors. If I decide to do this, one thing I will be doing is to use a fairly thick piece of metal as the front of the box for the electrical, like 1/8th inch since that is the max my welder can handle. This would be one piece going along the floor from inner panel to inner panel. And there will be some added bracing at the top at least for the top of the box to rest on. probably like 1.5X1.5 angle, since I have lots of that. The height will be however high I need to clear the battery and stuff. Not going to be very high, hoping about level with the hatchback floor area.

Thoughts? I want more than just a small area for the rear to weld onto, which is what the leaf spring bracket seems to be to me. And this should be pretty close to that same area. I might go ahead and make a small piece to go from there to where I would have the main subframes at just to add some strength. Hell, I would like to frame the rear of the car at least, but that isn't happening.

Oh, the battery will be in a sealed box that is vented outside the car, probably using one of the rear seat belt bolt holes.

In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

well,take 2.
Where'd my post go? My fat fingers strike again.

The best thing about the vin this way I can go back and weld and grind the cut piece back on to the dash if needed and no one will be able to tell it was ever cut out.

Becky is a purist, huh? Boy, she isn't going to like me one bit. :-) I was thinking about getting a 79 Ford factory service manual, then thought for what? except for the suspension almost the entire car won't be covered in that manual.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

That heart attack you mentioned would belong to Pinto Purist Becky (blupinto), but she'll get over it!  I prefer my cars pretty much stock too, but somehow this idea of yours appeals to me. 

Dwayne :smile:

P.S. - I think what you're planning to do with the VIN should work just fine.
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

and what I am thinking of doing with the vin is to cut out the vin on the stock dash, with a large amount of the dash still attached. Then cut a vin sized slot on the driver's side front of the 96 dash and mount the vin from underneath. So if you look through the windshield you could see the vin, it would look like I had just put the 96 pad over the stock dash at that point.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Oh, if you can see the smaller vent on the driver's side top, just near the edge, that is about where I think I will have to cut the dash. Just at the outside edge of the vent, but of course this is just eyeballing it. The passenger side isn't quite as bad, but I think I may need to reposition the dash first, something isn't centered. Either the dash or the Pinto. :-)
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

yeah, I think so too, although I am sure that somewhere someone is having a heart attack just thinking about this. :-)
At least it seems that Pinto people are more willing to accept things like this than a lot of the vintage Mustang people. Granted there are a lot more of them, so even if percentage wise it is the same, number wise there are more there.

I had a horrible thought today. Transmission. I don't know if the II that had the 4.6 in it had a manual or auto, but looking at the size difference between the 4L70W and the C3 is scary. I am really concerned about that now. I don't mind doing some minor adjusting with a sledge hammer, but if I have to cut and weld, that is another matter.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

I sure hope you can make that work!  Somehow or another, that Mustang dash looks right at home in there... and I really didn't much figure it would!  Will be nice to see a Pinto with a more modern dash setup.

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

a few more pictures.
The guy still hasn't shown up or called or anything.

And the 96 dash IS a bit too wide, but still going to try to make it work. Since I am using the engine and trans from the same car, it would be nice to have the tach and gauges all work. It also seems not quite equal on both sides. Might be the Pinto, but the driver's side of the dash seems wider than the passenger side. At least more is sticking out on the driver's side.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Thanks. Yeah, you have had a lot of what I had a little of.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

Well, I can understand the guilt feelings... and they are probably justified to a point, but it's not easy dealing with a special needs person.  I've had about fifty years experience with that.  My sister was born with Spina Bifida when I was three years old.  Her needs are many and varied, and raising her was a family effort.  She turned 50 this June and as she ages, her needs have become even more demanding.  This has proven out to be good training for what was to come later.  Sixteen years into my current marriage, my 46 year old wife suffered a major stroke.  Being in the pons area of her brain, it has affected her vision, memory, balance, and speech.  This was a seemingly healthy, active woman who was a nurse by profession.  She can no longer walk unassisted, obviously can't drive or work, and she needs assistance with pretty much every aspect of day-to-day life.  Even with a lifetime of care-giving experience behind me, it sometimes threatens to overwhelm.  Believe me, I know where you're coming from.  If you could no longer meet Paula's needs, returning her to her parents was probably the kindest thing you could do. 
Keep plugging away at that Pinto... I'm still betting you'll have success in the end!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

I don't know about the mechanical skills thing. to a point, yeah, but not at the level lots of people here have. Been taking stuff apart and putting back together most of my life, but normally it would be right away, not taking apart and waiting who knows how long. I used to regrease my pedal crank ball bearings about once a week. :-)
I don't have the money to do this "right". Don't have the proper tools, etc. But I am stubborn until something hits me in the face hard enough to make me come to my senses, like what happened to the Mustang II project, I couldn't ignore that the front crossmember was shot after seeing the control arm mounting point had rusted and came apart. Even then, if I had a real welder and could use it, I would have kept going.
The guy who gave me all this Mustang stuff is putting a 66 Mustang body on the 96 GT frame(ok, floor). Now he has energy. :-)
Here's a link to the mustang site where he is posting his progress, if anyone is interested.
http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/great-lakes-vmfers/602812-latamud-ii.html

I am just trying to keep going with this, between boughts of depression and pain. Have a bad back, among other things. It always hurts, sometimes just a little, and sometimes more.

The thing with my ex wife is that I divorced her still loving her, and her me. She was born with some brain damage, and it took me quite a while to realise that I couldn't deal with it the way I should. so I dumped her back on her parents and feel like sh#t for doing that. I still sometimes see something and think " I bet Paula would like to go there", Paula being my ex's name. We were married almost 14 years, kind of hard to just let that go. At least for me. I have always tended to live half in the past.

Oh, well, enough of my problems, pretty sure I have bored you guys to sleep. Or else made you want to avoid me like the plague.

Sitting here waiting for the guy to come get the Pinto engine and stuff. he is already over an hour late, no word if he is even coming.

And the update must have caught me. Can't post this, so I copied and put it in word to post later.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

Russ,
I think it may be fear of that "holy S#$% moment" that prevents me from starting on my Pinto.  I know deep down inside that if I EVER disassembled it to the point you have, it would never be put back together again!  But... that's me.  We're talking about you.  You obviously have more mechanical skills than I do and either more time and/or energy than I do, so I'm betting you'll get it back together this time! 
As for the wife thing, I know how you feel.  My first wife and I would have been married 28 years now.  Y'know what?  I don't care.  I'm far happier with my second wife, and from what I can tell she's happier with her latest husband (#3) too.  Concentrate on your relationship with your current wife and put the past behind you.  You recently celebrated five years and that's an accomplishment!
Have a great weekend!
Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

71pintoracer

Been there, done that Russ! (the holy S#$% moment) and yea, it's damn scary! :hypno:
All you can do now is press forward, I have been reading this thread with much intrest and from what I have seen so far you have strong mechanical skills and are doing a fine job!!
Oh, and BTW,  :happy_bday:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

russosborne

well, went out to gather all the stuff for tomorrow. decided to do a little bit more. took the passenger side seat out. cleaned up the garage some, got almost everything that was on the roof of the Pinto off.
took off the steering/brake support bracket. got the gas pedal off. only thing really left in the interior is the ebrake handle and the brake pedal and it's main support.

Then I took a good look and had an "Holy S#$% what have I done" moment. One of those where my overall lack of success in the past rises up and stares me in the face. Will this car ever run again? Am I over my head?(probably) etc.
Been kind of a lousy week. Wednesday would have been my 20th anniversary if I had stayed with my first wife. That still haunts me badly.
That added onto my already depressed state about my job and finances is almost enough.
If you have to ask almost enough what I won't tell you.
oh well. oh, my 51st birthday is this coming week. At least I am well over half through with life.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Not much done today. Got the back bumper off, finished getting the wire harness off, had to take the driver's seat off to do that.
Wanted to take the gas tank off, but the strap nuts didn't want to cooperate. think I am going to have to cut them, but the tank has gas in it still, and once I jacked the car up it started leaking. So no cutting for a while.

Last picture is of the stock engine getting ready to go bye. Hope I am doing the right thing.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dholvrsn

Yep! It looks like there done be a 4.6 engine down there, underneath all them there hoses!  ::)
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

russosborne

Side note-can we edit images once we post?

Let's try this one again.

Well, I need to remember just who is doing this. Me. I need to expect problems.
Was out getting some stuff together for the guy coming to get the engine and trans, if he wants this stuff as well.
Took a good look at the 96 dash. Kept thinking it just looks bigger than the Pinto. I put the two together again, and while the top along the windshield is just about perfect, the 96 has about 2 inches extra width on each side. I don't think this will be a show stopper. Then again I always screw up when I think. I may have to cut off the ends. I need to get the dash stripped so I can put it in the car and see just what I need to do.
here's a couple of 4.6L engine pictures.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Well, nothing new to report. I have been so tired lately I am not getting anything done when I get home. Think this past weekend was a bit much for me. Getting old sucks.

I need to get out in the garage and get my work bench cleaned off, so I can start taking apart the 96 Mustang dash. I am anxious to see if it will fit in the car. 20 years or so ago I wouldn't have to take it apart to find this out, but now I can barely move it by myself.

Was looking at the engine while it was on the hoist. I think that at least for installation purposes I can just flip the oil pan around and make it a front sump. Doubt it will work for real, but at least that will let me start test fitting the engine. I can't afford several hundred dollars for the Canton Racing front sump pan.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.