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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Project Europa Killer

Started by Snow Wolf, June 14, 2012, 12:56:21 AM

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jackal9

Do you happen to know what the lincoln engine is off hand? I have searched and searched to no avail, thanks!

Jack

Grumpy




This is the Lincoln LS/Thunderbird 3.9 V8(290 hp stock)


And this is the 400 hp 4.2 supercharged Jaguar AJ V8...



Notice the similarity? (hint, Ford owned Jaguar at the time). And if you look at the oil pan it seems designed to drop right in to a Pinto.


Grumpy 8)
79 Pinto Hatch, Yellow w/White Pony stripes, Pony wheels, 6650 miles

Grumpy

Here's an aluminum V8 that isn't cast of pure money...


Ford owned Rover when the 4.0 and 4.6 motor was in them. I don't know where everybody is getting their engine weights at, but this motor in stock 200 hp(about 280 ft lbs)4.6 form weights almost exactly the same as the 2.3. Accessories add weight to both, but without accessories both weight about 315 pounds(the 2.3 is actually about 10 pounds heavier). The Rover can be stroked to 5.0 and built to 350 or so for NA, but it is a bit limited in RPM(6000 max without injections of pure gold). I'm thinking a low compression torque motor with a smallish turbo(instant boost, about 15 lbs), near stock cam and forged pistons. Methanol/water injection instead of intercoolers and hide the turbo where the right rear seat used to be, boxed in and isolated from the interior, the seat back makes an excellent lid. It dresses up kind of nice, too...





Notice the Boss 302ish valve covers(stock on 3.9, like this, and all 4.0 and 4.6 models, though they have no distributors at all)and the distributor more or less in the right place? Even the exhausts are spaced nearly correctly. Technically, it's a Ford, visually it looks like a Ford(if you squint) and you won't even have to change the front springs. and they are torque monsters! Given a choice of huge low end torque and modest top end power or weak low end torque and high horsepower up high, take the torque every time(why do you think muscle cars came with truck engines?). Torque moves the car while horsepower is waiting on rpm, add a turbo to boost the top end and you have Ecoboost, the best of both worlds.


Grumpy 8)
79 Pinto Hatch, Yellow w/White Pony stripes, Pony wheels, 6650 miles

PintoMaverick

If your still thinking about this, have you considered using a 3.7 engine and trans from a new Mustang? That's 305 hp stock. Adding a turbo would get you in the hp range your looking for. You can get those complete takeout's with trans for 2-3 grand.

I like your avatar by the way!
1974 Pinto trunk model, 2000, 4 speed. 1971 Maverick Grabber, 4.6 DOHC 98 Cobra engine, 5speed, Mustang II front suspension, 4 link rear.

vonkysmeed



there is an aluminum windsor to save weight, but that is cubic dollars
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

Pinto5.0

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 20, 2012, 01:52:04 PM
well i'm sure it'll hellishly fast....

It remains to be seen. On paper it should handle like a roadracer, top out near 190 mph & run low 9's with a drag suspension installed. I'll settle for street drivability & a tolerable ride that doesn't jar my teeth loose.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Snow Wolf

well i'm sure it'll hellishly fast....
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

Pinto5.0

I bought it new for 28K & dropped another 15K on paint & body mods less than a year later. Engine/trans. set me back nearly 15K so far & over 7K on wheels/tires/brakes/suspension plus so much other stuff I'm forgetting & I'm still not through yet. It's amazing how fast it adds up.....
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Snow Wolf

70 wow 70K that's alot...
the build i had in mind would of been way under 20k.

but i think i could do the fenders with fiberglass.

as for the suspension i was thinking of robbing a foxbody mustang of its.

Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 18, 2012, 11:29:18 PM
something like this?

how would you go about doing that?

Thats exactly what I'm referring to. I was planning to do just that to my '80 Runabout before I sank over 70K into my "07 Mustang to install an adjustable corner carving suspension & over 800 RWHP to push me close tp 200 MPH top speeds.

I was going to use 2 pairs of '79-'80 Pinto fenders to form my widebody panels from. It really isn't that difficult to visualize how to cut & form the fender skins to the perfect shape if you make cardboard templates & tape them to the body to get the shape right. My build was going to use the Jag IRS that I picked up for $200. It's 63" wide & comes with 10" disc brakes & parking brakes already. My front suspension was just going to be the crossmember & adjustabe A-arms out of a wrecked late model stock car that was 62" wide & had 11" disc brakes already on it.  Stock Pinto is 57" width front & rear roughly. The rest of the width I wanted was coming via wheel offsets.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Srt

i don't mean any disrespect, but it means CUBIC MONEY.  if you want a race car then build one. you will not get what you say you desire by cutting ANY corners
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Snow Wolf

Quotewith custom wide body panels to cover the tires.
something like this?

how would you go about doing that?
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

Pinto5.0

A Pinto suspension isn't the hot suspension for corner carving PERIOD! It's respectable but if I were putting a corner carver together under a Pinto body I'd fab a wider front suspension out of NASCAR take-offs & a wider axle out back with trailing arms & a watts link. A built 2.3  EFI turbo/5 speed set back 10 inches, 9 inch wide front & 10 inch rear wheels with custom wide body panels to cover the tires.

Basically I'd want to add a foot to the width, increase braking, stiffen it up with roll cage & put some fat sway bars under it.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Pintosopher

Not even doable.. Without real Bucks See attached Photo
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Snow Wolf

it's not the engine that would make it a track car.... but to race in a SCCA class that will fit this kind of build i would need a cage. plus the car would be gutted.... basically i was looking at something like this but with a v8 in it ...



i don't know a lot of road race tracks around where i live. and on top of that i'm sure the entry fees are more then your entry fees at a local nhra/ihra tracks.

i can race in ETK/Trophy class at 75-80 dragway at Monrovia MD for like 30-40 dollars. but i heard SCCA is a bit more or i should say a lot more money. <--- but i could be wrong. and if i am let me know.
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

Pinturbo75

ive got less than your initial investment in just the motor in a 2.3turbo pinto(car and all) and am over your target hp level and can drive it anywhere and all the while whooping up on v8s and getting near 30mpg... do that with your351..... :D
75 turbo pinto trunk, megasquirt2, 133lb injectors, bv head, precision 6265 turbo, 3" exhaust,bobs log, 8.8, t5,, subframe connectors, 65 mm tb, frontmount ic, traction bars, 255 lph walbro,
73 turbo pinto panel wagon, ms1, 85 lb inj, fmic, holset hy35, 3" exhaust, msd, bov,

Snow Wolf

ok... more i dive into this, more i have to ask "is it worth it"...
yes it would be nice to have a crazy fast car. but for this project it would end up being a strait up race car. and i'm not a fan of the hatchback (sorry). and you got the money that it will take, and the time it will take... all for a car that i could only use at a road race course.

think i should abandon this project before a wast a ton of money in something that i might not like.... and go ahead and build some that i would like. like an old school tuner but do it with a pinto cruiser wagon....

but i do like the idea of this kick@ss road racing monster. so what i might do is continue this build on paper only.

what do you all think.....
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

Snow Wolf

well... i'm still looking into it. i got to look a the price too. i can get a windsor small block that will put out my target HP (350-400) for about $7000. and that's carb to oil pan. all new, done, just need to put into car and break in.

but i got to look in and price out a carb-ed turbo 2.3 build. and see how much it will cost, and if it's worth it.

Quote from: Srt on June 16, 2012, 04:26:04 AM
this what you're looking to 'kill'?
yes... not that one, but yes that car. what i'm really aiming for are the few d!cks on the Europa forum (a yahoo group). how they treated me was uncalled for.

here was one of the last messages i got.
QuoteI wasn't addressing Kris, I was addressing Mike about a timeline pertinent tp the development of the AC/Cobra automobile , nothing more.

I have no interest in Kris' street racing/ dick wagging agenda, whether alone, or backed by a "team" of fellow dick-waggers.

Kris, please, stick a fork in this mess; it's done!

and i never talked about street racing and i did not brag or boast. all i did was try to see if i could do a budget/junkyard build. starting with a low hp 289. (210 - 250 hp). and all i got was defecated on, over and over. i have never been treated like that on any other forums. never.
so to get even with them, i'm going to build a pinto (maybe) to out do my original plans for the Europa.
but before i start to throw money around, i want to do research and find out as much info as i can for this build. 


Bigtimmay
thank you... looking into it now...
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

Bigtimmay

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 15, 2012, 10:43:28 PM
still looking but going through price shock... god d@mn!!! a little warring to this hillbilly would of been nice.... CSU 750BT. a 750cfm blow through carb... new from CSU is $925.00 just wow.
Yah those carbs are expensive But they are nice there are write ups on the net on how to convert holleys to blow thru by yourself.http://web.archive.org/web/20031025025448/http://www.hangar18fabrication.com/blowthru.html
Another route other then blow thru Is a fully enclosed carb box then you just need "mechanical secondaries, .120 needle and seat plus nitrophyll float set". http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/drag-racing/146900d1326343350-will-my-turbo-plans-work-help-paxton.jpg thats a pic of a paxton carb box.
Oh and as for you havent seen a fast carbed 2.3 turbo yet I got one person for you to look up. Joe laramee his street car and drag pinto are both blow thru carbed 2.3s. Heres his drag car right before it got wrecked but this aint even turned up all the way yet.
Also his "Street car" has went 9s.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e-kxluQL78
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Srt

this what you're looking to 'kill'?
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Snow Wolf

still looking but going through price shock... god d@mn!!! a little warring to this hillbilly would of been nice.... CSU 750BT. a 750cfm blow through carb... new from CSU is $925.00 just wow.
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

racer99

CSU or C&S for a blow thru,I have one from each and both work well.
The turbo wagon is going draw thru but if I cant get it to run right
it will be blow thru in a week.
Go to the turboforums.com and lurk in the carb section.

Snow Wolf

ok i don't know alot about turbos. a supercharger (an old school blower style) you can put the carb right on top. but the a turbo you need to do or have a blow through carb. i think that's what they call them. carbureted turbos i just know a little bit about them. but i think i can rap my head around that. just need to know how it works. being under boost and not vacuum.

and can i get enough hp out of it. i never seen a high power carbureted 2.3 turbo. all the fast 2.3 turbos i have ever seen was EFI...

but i do like your idea. but i will need more info to see if it can be done. 
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

Bigtimmay

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 15, 2012, 04:43:37 PM
  if i knew how to play with fuel injection i would just do a bad@ss 2.3 turbo.
Im all for you spanking a lotus Europa with a pinto cause I think those europa are butt ugly personally. lol
That being said why not build a Carbed 2.3 turbo?
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Snow Wolf

thanks for the idea. there's nothing wrong with it. BUT, BUT i'm sure it's EFI. i can build it. but if i do can you tune it for FREE....

the requirements for this build.

first: a light weight car: i'm thinking the pinto

2nd: a decent amount of power: with a car that weighs around what the pinto weighs, it would need to be around 350 to 400 hp

3rd: being true: a ford engine goes in a ford, a chevy engine goes into a chevy. sorry that's just me...

4th: it has to be cheap and reliable: and i know a v8 windsor can do that.

5th: i need to be able to work on it, get parts for it, and be able to tune it: so i think a carb-ed 347 or 331 windsor would be the best bet. since i don't know how to tune fuel injection. not a d@mn clue. i was so happy when i got that junk off my ranger and went to carbs.  if i knew how to play with fuel injection i would just do a bad@ss 2.3 turbo. just look at my sig and that well tell you alot about how much i know about EFI. 0.00%...  :-[ sorry i'm so stupid when it comes to that. i can put them in and fix then all day long but i don't know how to tune them.
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

82expghost

the duracrap 3.0 can do it for you, its light and i can guarantee you can get 600+ out of it, the company noble sports cars did it and put it in their car, or you could build the cossie engine like cossiepinto, 1:5 ratio shouldnt be hard to hit
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

Snow Wolf

Well first, the Windsor is a light motor. Lighter than Chevy or Dodge small blocks. (except the LS's, but that's aluminum)...

QuoteOh and as for them saying the V8 will make a pinto nose heavy It will no matter what you do cause they just dont sit back in the engine bay like a 4 banger
But that is true. If I can't punch the firewall back a bit, this build is no good... So i'm looking at different classes that will allow that. If any of you know of one let me know about it...

Well I'll say it again. This build is for one thing and one thing only. To blow the doors off of the Europa. Not everyone who owns a Europa is a dick, but there are about 7 of them that I really badly what to shove their words right back into their mouths.  To show them i can build a car that has a horsepower to weight ratio of 1:5 (1 hp for every 5 lbs), in a car that handles, using an old school V8, and being on some kind of a budget.

The Lotus Europa only weighs 1600 lbs and they can be lightened to about 1200 lbs, but most of them build motors that only put out 200 hp, at most. So that's like 1:6 horsepower to weight ratio.

But this build may be pointless; if I can't find a road racing class/bracket/day/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it, like they have in drag racing. In drag racing they have what they call "grudge matches". You just need to come in there on a street night, race what you brung.   

Quote from: racer99 on June 15, 2012, 11:23:59 AM
There are catch-all classes in SCCA.

They are regional classes though.

SPU production based under 2.0l
SPO production based over 2.0l

I have ran both as well as A/S ,GT3 and Spec Miata.

thank you for that info.
Cars I own:
*87 Ford Ranger. 2.3 was EFI now carb and loving it. <-- my baby
*75 Chevy Nova 250 I6. nice cruiser.

Past cars i've owned:
*65 Ford mustang 200 I6.
*68 Ford Ranchero 302.
*78 Ford F350 Camper Special Ranger XLT with a 460.
*74 Dodge Charger HT with a 318.
and that's all of them.

racer99

There are catch-all classes in SCCA.

They are regional classes though.

SPU production based under 2.0l
SPO production based over 2.0l

I have ran both as well as A/S ,GT3 and Spec Miata.

thecustommuffler

Quote from: Reeves1 on June 14, 2012, 05:53:27 AM
V8 will make it nose heavy....not a corner carver.

I`ll second that. My v8 (350 dynoed at 437 on 92) `80 Monza coupe would damn near wanna come around just from straight line braking. The car became dangerous with a posi. I had a 400 trani in it then switched to a TH350 and that helped.

I`m going the route of big block in my Pinto, but cruising the streets to be "the man" and a front wheel pull at the red light is all I`m looking for.

pinto21

How is your 77 project going, get the turbo put in yet? We had a great time at all the tracks we were able to visit, but I really enjoyed the road course track at Summit Point,W.Va. could really get into that type of racing. Check out the stampede on U-tube. Take care.