Author Topic: New project... 1980 Runabout (Read 65364 times)

r4pinto · « **Reply #540 on:** September 29, 2017, 12:10:40 PM »

I actually cleaned a piston on my old Impala by putting ATF on the head. Cleaned it right up before I replaced the head

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r4pinto · « **Reply #541 on:** September 29, 2017, 10:01:41 PM »

Vacuum modulator was definitely shot. Pulled the line off under the car and fluid poured out. New one on and smoking stopped, as did a little of the poor running. I did however find the passenger side inner tie rod is worn and needs done sooner rather than later. I will price new inner and outer tie rods and while I am at it replace the bad driver side rack and pinion boot. The rack really should be replaced but it’s not in the funds. Heck new tie rods aren’t either for that matter. Will do it as I can afford to.

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Pintosopher · « **Reply #542 on:** September 30, 2017, 07:22:41 AM »

Quote from: r4pinto on September 29, 2017, 10:01:41 PM

Vacuum modulator was definitely shot. Pulled the line off under the car and fluid poured out. New one on and smoking stopped, as did a little of the poor running. I did however find the passenger side inner tie rod is worn and needs done sooner rather than later. I will price new inner and outer tie rods and while I am at it replace the bad driver side rack and pinion boot. The rack really should be replaced but it’s not in the funds. Heck new tie rods aren’t either for that matter. Will do it as I can afford to.

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Good to hear that the Modulator was the issue. Tuning can now proceed

On the Rack , be sure that when you set up for the new ends that you have verified the rack is in exact center of travel, or it'll be tough to get accurate alignment later. Measure 5 times before you cinch those inner links, ( ask Me how I know

) Then proceed to set up for actual center to center on the outer tie rod ends. One noteworthy issue, Camber and Caster should be set before Toe, as they will mess up that measurement. I know you were planning on the front end rebuild, soooo think about that horse before the cart as the budget allows

Loose bushings & Ball joints will sabatoge a reverse alignment.
Ackk it will cost more money!!!

Pintosopher, debt laden tools keep my wheels turning, but the ride is straight, and the tires love it!

r4pinto · « **Reply #543 on:** September 30, 2017, 07:27:42 AM »

That’s why I’m not tacking it just yet. While I have a suspension kit I ordered for my old 77 I don’t really want to replace the ball joints at the moment

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r4pinto · « **Reply #544 on:** October 01, 2017, 07:31:22 AM »

Well I went ahead and ordered the inner tie rods from Rockauto, as well as a new driver side rack and pinion bellow so I can properly fix the flame broiled one. After the fire I used an old one from a 2004 Impala rack and pinion core I had lying around. Lost the core charge since I didn't return it in time, so I got my money's worth by using the boot.

Additionally I got two power steering TRW outer tie rod ends off ebay which will be installed as well. The steering feels good but I am getting a little odd tire wear from the bad passenger side inner tie rod end. That's no big deal since I have a 5th tire in the trunk for the spare I can rotate to the car if it gets severe enough to where it can't be fixed by driving the car properly aligned.

I am on vacation in a couple weeks, so what I will do is get a grinder to cut through the rivets on the old ball joints, and replace all four ball joints, all tie rods, front coil springs, and shock absorbers. I'm sure the car will drive much better after I do that, even though it drives pretty good now. Since the rear end is not alignable being a solid rear axle I will just get a front end alignment to save me some money.

Pintosopher · « **Reply #545 on:** October 01, 2017, 08:41:12 AM »

Great to hear that the whole banana is going to be eaten

If you can find one to rent, I recommend the OTC Spring compressor (7045b) that goes inside where the front shocks reside normally, It is the Safest one to use, and that's why I bought one for My 72 work (future project) and a must have for My Dakota that I recently O'hauled the frt susp. Never worried after seeing the Turns that tool used to make the Springs loose enough for removal. and it worked great. Bought on Amazon...
While you have the rack dismantled, the pinion should be checked for excessive play, and shimmed as necessary for proper play on the rack teeth. Unfortunately , there's no Cam/locknut adjuster like many cars for this. If it's too tight, the rack will bind at either extreme of the full travel, so you may have to settle for some play to avoid the binding zone. This is where it could become a wash on just getting a new rack.

The car will track so much better when all of this is done, and you might even see more fuel mileage, and of course, peace of mind on tire wear/ bearing adjustments, etc...

Pintosopher, loose ends are for wandering , directions are for folks with a fast horse

r4pinto · « **Reply #546 on:** October 01, 2017, 08:44:06 AM »

Well I’m not actually rebuilding the rack, just replacing the tie rod ends. The car steers good or should I say as good as it can with worn tie rods lol

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r4pinto · « **Reply #547 on:** October 04, 2017, 06:53:50 AM »

Stupid car is now stalling and running like crap after it sits. When cold it’s fine except for that issue with the fast idle not working for no reason. Ordered a new ignition module and will also replace the distributor although I want to tow this thing to a field, pour gasoline on it and set the damn thing on fire.

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Pintosopher · « **Reply #548 on:** October 04, 2017, 07:15:01 AM »

Matt, I do feel your frustration..
Let's assume that the new electrical components eliminate "temperature" related tuning from the ignition, and you have consistent spark at all temps. The next logical issue is fuel supply and metering. Fuel vapor lock? Sending unit/pickup clogged with contamination?
Hook a can of gas to the fuel pump( safely), eliminate that possibility. Back to the emissions related "leaks " that allow the system to bleed air into the intake. If necessary, set the car up temporarily minus all emission and evaluate all operating temp situations. You will find the gremlin.
The Last is a complete multi temp leakdown test of the head gasket integrity (you could do this first and save a bunch of time and grief if it's the problem)

Nothing will save a poor seal at the head, you can tune yourself into an asylum, if it's the problem.

Have faith, the answer is there..

Pintosopher , been there, done that, and paid the price

r4pinto · « **Reply #549 on:** October 04, 2017, 07:20:04 AM »

Oh it’s beyond frustration. I’m trying to drive this thing so I don’t rack up miles on a car with broken heat so I can trade it in April and it keeps acting up. I’ve even tried to look for vacuum diagrams to see if they were never hooked up right on the 77 but can’t get a straight answer. So I will try to describe it. The EGR line is running to the bottom port on the carburetor, and the distributor is to the intake vacuum port on the front port of the intake. Is it possible the previous owners of the 77 had it hooked up wrong? Yep. But being as I have nothing to compare to I had to hook it up the same way since it’s the 77 carb on the 80.

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r4pinto · « **Reply #550 on:** October 04, 2017, 07:21:03 AM »

As for the cylinder leak down any suggestions on how to do that.

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r4pinto · « **Reply #551 on:** October 04, 2017, 07:22:00 AM »

Lastly a friend from high school was by my car last night and it reeked PIG rich while running. Possibly from weak spark not burning the fuel but unknown.

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Pintosopher · « **Reply #552 on:** October 04, 2017, 07:25:07 AM »

I will dig into my Books and look for the Vacuum diagrams for both 77 & 80 and get back to you. Rich mixtures could be a sinking float in the carb bowl, allowing the fuel to pour in..

Back by 10AM PST

r4pinto · « **Reply #553 on:** October 04, 2017, 09:39:47 AM »

Fuel to the fire. Plug check. Cylinder one looks worse than the others. Included is the number one plug and one from number four. 2-4 all look the same. I smelled number one and it was residual transmission fluid. Will buy a new plug for the number one cylinder

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dick1172762 · « **Reply #554 on:** October 04, 2017, 10:22:59 AM »

A very rich mixture can wash the plugs off and make you think their ok. Smelling them will tell all if you look and smell after driving the car. At times they will look brand new. Most of the time the rich condition will be because by the float or the power valve.

r4pinto · « **Reply #555 on:** October 04, 2017, 10:26:01 AM »

I did smell them before and they were fine. The only one that wasn’t was the one that is apparently still fouled with transmission fluid and will be replacing it. If it were that rich the mpgs would be in the toilet and oil in the gas. I have neither. As for the float it was fine before however I will be pulling the carburetor to see what may be wrong with it.

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Pintosopher · « **Reply #556 on:** October 04, 2017, 11:33:02 AM »

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 09:39:47 AM

Fuel to the fire. Plug check. Cylinder one looks worse than the others. Included is the number one plug and one from number four. 2-4 all look the same. I smelled number one and it was residual transmission fluid. Will buy a new plug for the number one cylinder

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Strangely enough, Your # 1 insulator is the right mixure color (beige) for a plug check at high RPM, But all plugs showing soot around the rim which is rich At idle to 1/8 -1/4 throttle. Plain white on the insulator is a lean condition for a carbureted engine.

Pintosopher · « **Reply #557 on:** October 04, 2017, 11:38:05 AM »

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 07:20:04 AM

Oh it’s beyond frustration. I’m trying to drive this thing so I don’t rack up miles on a car with broken heat so I can trade it in April and it keeps acting up. I’ve even tried to look for vacuum diagrams to see if they were never hooked up right on the 77 but can’t get a straight answer. So I will try to describe it. The EGR line is running to the bottom port on the carburetor, and the distributor is to the intake vacuum port on the front port of the intake. Is it possible the previous owners of the 77 had it hooked up wrong? Yep. But being as I have nothing to compare to I had to hook it up the same way since it’s the 77 carb on the 80.

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Here is a image of the 77 and later emissions for the 2.3L

Pintosopher · « **Reply #558 on:** October 04, 2017, 11:44:01 AM »

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 07:20:04 AM

Oh it’s beyond frustration. I’m trying to drive this thing so I don’t rack up miles on a car with broken heat so I can trade it in April and it keeps acting up. I’ve even tried to look for vacuum diagrams to see if they were never hooked up right on the 77 but can’t get a straight answer. So I will try to describe it. The EGR line is running to the bottom port on the carburetor, and the distributor is to the intake vacuum port on the front port of the intake. Is it possible the previous owners of the 77 had it hooked up wrong? Yep. But being as I have nothing to compare to I had to hook it up the same way since it’s the 77 carb on the 80.

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More stuff.. PiX!

r4pinto · « **Reply #559 on:** October 04, 2017, 11:51:55 AM »

Thanks for shooting those. The 80 had the dual converters when the 77 did not. I think the 77 was federal emissions since its carb had nothing to it. Very oddballish. Will have to make do with what is available to make it work. As for the 80 plugs... so you’re saying the plugs indicate both lean and rich at the same time? I ordered a new ignition box and will also more than likely replace the distributor to see if that helps. Chasing the problem but no choice. Will also pull the carburetor, new filter, and check the float to see if that does any good

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Pintosopher · « **Reply #560 on:** October 04, 2017, 12:09:16 PM »

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 11:51:55 AM

Thanks for shooting those. The 80 had the dual converters when the 77 did not. I think the 77 was federal emissions since its carb had nothing to it. Very oddballish. Will have to make do with what is available to make it work. As for the 80 plugs... so you’re saying the plugs indicate both lean and rich at the same time? I ordered a new ignition box and will also more than likely replace the distributor to see if that helps. Chasing the problem but no choice. Will also pull the carburetor, new filter, and check the float to see if that does any good

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From my earliest apprenticeship as a Mechanic with 2 & 4 stroke engines. A properly tuned mixture for a 2 stroke (oil Mix or injection) is the Coffee creamed color ( insulator)for the full throttle Plug check. Any heavy soot at the rim of the plug is idle circuit richness (2 or 4 stroke) this is for Carbureted engines as a reference. The color of # 1 indicates recent oil presence in the fuel mix (ATF?) or intake valve guide seal leakage on #1. Modern Emission controlled 4 stroke engines usually run near white or grey at the plug insulator for Mid to full throttle. Much of this is due to calibration of Fuel injection Pre-OBD or Most OBD emissions.
In the case of a unwanted air bleed into the intake, no soot at idle, and bone white insulator with risk for detonations (pinging) and possible engine damage under load.
That would also explain any unusual gas mileage benefit too, but seldom is present without pinging.

More variables, but in the absence of proof of a mechanical issue.. (Google Leakdown You tube videos) this is where we are

Pintosopher The answers are out there, I want to believe, therefore I must know

r4pinto · « **Reply #561 on:** October 04, 2017, 01:00:49 PM »

So with that info I have two questions. Will having the vacuum advance hooked to intake vacuum cause some of this as opposed to ported vacuum? Is it possible that 77s had them set up that way? And last but not least how does one adjust the fuel mix on the carburetor?

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r4pinto · « **Reply #562 on:** October 04, 2017, 01:01:58 PM »

Also I want to add one thing I noticed is no sounds of any pinging whatsoever (that I could identify anyway)

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Pintosopher · « **Reply #563 on:** October 04, 2017, 02:05:14 PM »

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 01:00:49 PM

So with that info I have two questions. Will having the vacuum advance hooked to intake vacuum cause some of this as opposed to ported vacuum? Is it possible that 77s had them set up that way? And last but not least how does one adjust the fuel mix on the carburetor?

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Unless there is a vacuum control valve, like the throttle angle vacuum switch, or the vacuum regulator solenoid shown in the diagram I sent, any connection to the intake manifold results in full manifold vacuum to the Advance mechanism on the Dist at Idle. Ported vacuum is a low vacuum port to prevent any influence on the advance mechanism until the Butterflies move off the seat, (idle seat screw), hence limited or no vacuum at idle to prevent the spark advance from causing (dieseling) run on and why the carb has a Throttle Positioning idle solenoid.
This is why many attempts to adjust the tune are challenged if the whole equation isn't factory pertaining to components on the car.

Let me know how far you are willing to go with this relative to OEM setup...
Pintosopher, the hard way, is the one that sticks with you,

r4pinto · « **Reply #564 on:** October 04, 2017, 02:06:59 PM »

Ultimately I want it to be as close to correct as possible. I may try to see if I can get the original carburetor to spray fuel and use it instead of the frankencarb on the car now

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Pintosopher · « **Reply #565 on:** October 04, 2017, 02:24:44 PM »

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 02:06:59 PM

Ultimately I want it to be as close to correct as possible. I may try to see if I can get the original carburetor to spray fuel and use it instead of the frankencarb on the car now

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Ok, In the meantime, verify using the diagram, all of the emissions components present on your car. If you find wiring or pieces missing, I'll do my best to decipher the mess. 1980 isn't that much different from a 1977 , unless it's a California car.

If you have that vacuum controlled exhaust heat riser valve in the exhaust, make sure it's not frozen partially closed or even open too! It must have a functioning diaphragm to not allow air into the system unnecessarily, In fact, all vacuum pots must be functioning with no bleed down while checked with vacuum pump tool.

Pintosopher, Life can be lived in a vaccum, but it never sux

dick1172762 · « **Reply #566 on:** October 04, 2017, 03:14:29 PM »

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 01:01:58 PM

Also I want to add one thing I noticed is no sounds of any pinging whatsoever (that I could identify anyway)

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On a car with an automatic tranie it is very hard to hear one ping because as you slow down to climb a hill and put a load on the engine, the tranie will downshift. It would have to be so bad that the engine would most likely not start to hear it ping. BTW I have seen many post about never using manifold vacuum for the disturber advance. Also I know you should never have it hooked up when setting the timing.

r4pinto · « **Reply #567 on:** October 04, 2017, 03:22:15 PM »

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 04, 2017, 03:14:29 PM

On a car with an automatic tranie it is very hard to hear one ping because as you slow down to climb a hill and put a load on the engine, the tranie will downshift. It would have to be so bad that the engine would most likely not start to hear it ping. BTW I have seen many post about never using manifold vacuum for the disturber advance. Also I know you should never have it hooked up when setting the timing.

The 77 I had was set up the exact same way as this car so I would have no reason to think it was not correct. As for setting the timing you ASSUMED I did not disconnect the line from the distributor when setting the timing before which I did. You know what they say about assuming.

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dick1172762 · « **Reply #568 on:** October 04, 2017, 03:36:53 PM »

Off the Holly web site. Manifold vacuum is high at idle and low at wide open throttle (WOT).Ported vacuum is weak at idle. strong at cruise and weak at WOT. I have never seen a Pinto Holly / Weber carb pulling vacuum off the intake manifold. It may be the easy way, but its not the right way.

Pintosopher · « **Reply #569 on:** October 04, 2017, 03:45:09 PM »

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 04, 2017, 03:36:53 PM

Off the Holly web site. Manifold vacuum is high at idle and low at wide open throttle (WOT).Ported vacuum is weak at idle. strong at cruise and weak at WOT. I have never seen a Pinto Holly / Weber carb pulling vacuum off the intake manifold. It may be the easy way, but its not the right way.

Dick , absolutely correct, the last Car I had with a manifold vacuum dist hookup was a '55 chevy 2 bbl 265. And it wasn't using a port fitting, just the carb base. That could've been wrong but it was easy.
Pintosopher,
I need more cerebral ports in my vacuum laden brain

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Author Topic: New project... 1980 Runabout (Read 65364 times)