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72 Pinto racecar, 2.3 ARCA engine, Quaife trans
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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Any 5-speed alternatives to the T-5 conversion?

Started by Henrius, October 05, 2017, 10:55:14 AM

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LongTimeFordMan

Actually i discovered the difference when I built my capri in 1980.. the shifter was a real piece of work..

I had a feeling that the flywheel was different as well..

I have a capri block that I am rebuilding... I assume that the blocks are the same and have rhe same bellhousing mounting holes, etc.
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

dick1172762

Everything on a 2.0 Capri behind the crankshaft back is different from what is used on a Pinto. The tranie / flywheel / clutch / shifter /starter / driveshaft / rear end / bellhousing. It all different because it came from over seas, not the USA. Most of our stock Pinto parts were made here or in Germany. Lucas made the Capri  starter and as such it will not work on a 2.0 Pinto. We already know the tranie and shifter is different. I had several friends who raced Capri's in SCCA and they all complained that they could not use Pinto parts when they had tranie problems.  Replacing the tranie was much more than unbolting the old and replacing it with a Pinto tranie. If your really interested, the Capri's have several really good web sites both here and over seas.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

robertwwithee

Quote from: LongTimeFordMan on October 18, 2017, 03:01:45 PM
Pix of pinto rims
To each his own.  13x7 fake panasports, real ones are reserved for race car.

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LongTimeFordMan

Pix of pinto rims
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

LongTimeFordMan

I forward Dick's post about the rear end ratio..  I guess I lucked out with my wagon, it has 3:40 and with 14" tires the ratio is ideal for highway 1900 at 40 mph, 3000 at 70. 

I think i have a wide ratio 4 speed because its pretty spunky off the line wit a 4 degree cam advance.. 

I would still recomment a swap to 14 " tires and alloy rims... I also switched to a 17 tooth speedo gear and the speedo and odometer is right on

As far as appearance, I actually get a lot of positive comments on my rims and the car seems to handle better.
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

LongTimeFordMan

Hi..

Not sure if this will duplicate since i tried to post it previously..

Looks like Dick and I are both recommending the same place...

I got some parts for my 73 pinto 4 speed at

https://www.taylor-race.com

The fellow there builds a lot of 4 and 5 speed racing transmissions based on the german 4 and 5 speed top loaders with the integral shifters.

You might want to call Taylor and pick his brain.. when i was there I got the idea that he builds all sorts of gearboxes.. be may have a used box in good shape, or recommend a source for a good used box.

I also had a 72 capri and it did not have the integral shifter like the pinto 4 speed, it had a side mounted external shifter.
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

robertwwithee

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 18, 2017, 02:17:47 PM
   You would need a very strong 2.0 engine to pull overdrive with any rear end ratio ever put in a Pinto by the factory. 3:55 is the very lowest gear put into Pintos from the factory and was in station wagons. Most Pintos came with gears around 3:00 and an overdrive is the last thing you would be able to use. It would take about 175 hp to pull such a gear and we both know that hp with a 2.0 is ONLY in an all out race car. 140 hp with a 2.0 is reasonable but with a lot of work and $$$$.
And my 3.55 rear is stock in a 72 sedan.  The 3.4 gear car was a swapped 8".

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robertwwithee

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 18, 2017, 02:17:47 PM
   You would need a very strong 2.0 engine to pull overdrive with any rear end ratio ever put in a Pinto by the factory. 3:55 is the very lowest gear put into Pintos from the factory and was in station wagons. Most Pintos came with gears around 3:00 and an overdrive is the last thing you would be able to use. It would take about 175 hp to pull such a gear and we both know that hp with a 2.0 is ONLY in an all out race car. 140 hp with a 2.0 is reasonable but with a lot of work and $$$$.
Well, my T5 conversion with 3.4 gears and 205 60 13 tires worked out great.  And im running the same tires 3.55 rear with a T9.  Both 2.0 maybe 110hp meaning relatively stock.  This isnt my first rodeo, itll be fine.

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dick1172762

Quote from: robertwwithee on October 18, 2017, 11:11:59 AM
The T5 are out there.  Im on a 2.0 conversion now and it was removed, ready to go for $200.  I can make that up in gas savings for a year!

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You would need a very strong 2.0 engine to pull overdrive with any rear end ratio ever put in a Pinto by the factory. 3:55 is the very lowest gear put into Pintos from the factory and was in station wagons. Most Pintos came with gears around 3:00 and an overdrive is the last thing you would be able to use. It would take about 175 hp to pull such a gear and we both know that hp with a 2.0 is ONLY in an all out race car. 140 hp with a 2.0 is reasonable but with a lot of work and $$$$.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

robertwwithee

The T5 are out there.  Im on a 2.0 conversion now and it was removed, ready to go for $200.  I can make that up in gas savings for a year!

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Pintosopher

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 18, 2017, 10:16:51 AM
Try  http://www.taylor-race.com or 1-800-922-4327
Just went to the Web site... $3795 for Sierra 5 speed .. Straight cut gears only though..
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dick1172762

There is a speed shop / sports car shop / tranie shop in Plano, Texas by the name of Taylor Racing or something like that that builds the T9 type tranies for sport car racing. Their known all over the country for their work. I bought one of their close ratio Pinto tranies a long time ago. Worked like a charm.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Henrius

Quote from: pintosopher on October 16, 2017, 09:25:02 AM
Kim,
No E-mail in any part of the UK site. Once upon a time there was a Quaife USA distributor, Unable to find at this time. I'm sending you this attachment to use for a suitability exercise with a Stock Merkur  T-9 . I may have access to a used one thru a close friend that converted his Merkur to a T-5 that was really boosted in HP ( Later the car was rear ended and totaled) . In the meantime, I've left my email with Quaife UK to further this endeavor.. I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer.  :)

Thanks for the info. I did find an e-mail address on the site, sent an e-mail, but nobody answered it.

If you are in the UK, could you call them for me, and see if they do orders shipped to the US? If not, I won't spend any more time on inquires.
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

dick1172762

Got it Joe! Thanks. It looks like some of the T9 parts would fit a 4 speed tranie too. I keep looking on the Merkur site but most of the T9's are gone and replaced by a T5 long ago.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Pintosopher

Dick , Sent you an email with PDF file for the Mag shown here..
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

Help. All I get on the classic ford mag site is blank pages.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

72DutchWagon


Pintosopher

Quote from: Wittsend on October 16, 2017, 12:18:41 PM

You can't import a cast iron case into California. They weigh too much and would eat precious fuel resources. And as we all know Jerky Clown does like anything that might pollute the (smoke filled by massive fires) air.  ;D
Well, the Crown prince of Bovine logic will just have to eat Tofu..  ;D  I may have to default to an aluminum case( to save on Shipping) and we all know that european aluminum is made from old WW2 warbirds :o.  Helping the manufacturers of the Crown doesn't bother me, ( I spend a ton on Teutonic pieces for the Hare). My Pinto would spin its mainshafts happily on Needle bearings and the ratio choices would have me in hillclimb nirvana, even in a non sequential "H" pattern.

Pintosopher, a known extraction tool to clean up the "stables" , Honey wagon awaits filling ;D
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Wittsend


Quote from: pintosopher on October 16, 2017, 09:25:02 AM
...  I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer.  :)


You can't import a cast iron case into California. They weigh too much and would eat precious fuel resources. And as we all know Jerky Clown does like anything that might pollute the (smoke filled by massive fires) air.  ;D

Pintosopher

Kim,
No E-mail in any part of the UK site. Once upon a time there was a Quaife USA distributor, Unable to find at this time. I'm sending you this attachment to use for a suitability exercise with a Stock Merkur  T-9 . I may have access to a used one thru a close friend that converted his Merkur to a T-5 that was really boosted in HP ( Later the car was rear ended and totaled) . In the meantime, I've left my email with Quaife UK to further this endeavor.. I'm intrigued with a T-9 and would like to price out a Iron case t-9 for my racer.  :)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Henrius

Quote from: pintosopher on October 14, 2017, 07:39:54 AM
The Quaife T-9 is available with a variety of Ratios 1st thru 5th Gears. It's called a Clubman box and has a all alloy gearcase and some improvements internally. But it does have a limit to HP for reliability (190) and it's over 2000 Pounds UK in price. The Rocket box is indeed a 4speed with other ratios available, but again , a expensive option.
My comments were related to Hillclimb racing and the effect of a single ratio (3:40) not being ideal for that usage. My car went down the road in 4th just fine with the 23 inch tires and that gear on regular roads and street usage. Fuel mileage was acceptable with dual DCOE 40's and the car regularly delivered 25 MPG if you kept a light foot on the highway.
If your application requires a 5th gear, then I would recommend the T-9 with its limitations

Pintosopher, It's in the Feed Mix that makes for happy horses ;D

Thanks for the info. It sound like Quaife is a one-stop-shop to get a superlative 5 speed built for the Pinto. But how the heck would they ship a transmission from England to the US and how much would it cost??? I am guessing by sea mail. If I could get it delivered for US $4000 or less I would be interested.

Hill climb racing is quite a bit different than daily driving. Not sure my requirements parallel yours. Also my engine is way under 190 horsepower so I don't think the HP limits of the T9 would be an issue.

If you happen to have an e-mail for someone at Quaife let me know. They didn't list any on their website and it is impractical for me to telephone during the day.

Kim
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Wittsend

Most of the GM Camaro T-5's came with the standard GM trans to bellhousing bolt pattern. There was a point (late 80's/early 90's???) where they went to the Ford bolt pattern (likely a Chevy Guy day of mourning) but again you are dealing with the the input shaft length being different in addition to the points you made.  Also a lot of those GM T-5's aren't rated for a lot of torque. They never used them behind a 350, only 305's. They used the T-56 for the 350. At least the one thing some of the Camaro's had going for them (in a V-8 application) was the 2.95 first gear.  But frankly it seems to be a lot of mix/match to get ratios, input shafts, shift lever locations that each application needs.


I've spent an extensive amount of time looking into a T-5 (or any Ford 5 speed) for my 289 Tiger and can get frustrating as nothing is ideal, or even close. And I'm hampered with a 5 bolt block and a vertical pattern Toploader bellhousing.



This is a pretty good discussion link on the T-5.


http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/244421-t5-tranny-recommendations.html

65ShelbyClone

There is also the GM (Camaro?) T5 option that puts the shifter in the right place, but needs a custom crossmember/mount due to the goofy angled tailshaft foot. It also puts the speedometer cable on the wrong side.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

dick1172762

Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

Perhaps the better question we should be asking is what is your budget for this 5 speed swap?  The Merkur T-9 is likely a very hard find and from what I've heard not as stout as a T-5. The Quaife T-9 that Pintosopher mentioned is likely $3,000+ to your front door.  A self pulled, 2.3*, T-5 (if you can find one) from a self serve wrecking yard is likely about $150. That is quite a cost difference.

*You mentioned " Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay."  BE AWARE I just did an Ebay search of "T-5 Transmission" and of the first 200 hits that came up NONE were for the 2.3 Ford version of the T-5.  They were either the Mustang or the Camaro.  The Mustang trans has a different length input shaft and the Camaro like wise, plus in most years the Camaro had a different bolt pattern. S-10 T-5's are also different.  I then did a search for "T-5 Transmission 2.3" and ONE transmission came up.  I see 2.3 input shafts on Ebay in the $80-$100 range but I'm not sure that is all you need to convert the 5.0 trans. Plus for better or worse you get the 5.0 ratios.

I live in So. Cal. where cars linger longer and parts tend to be more readily available.  I went to two self serve yards nearly every month for the past 20 years.  I'm going to say in the past 8 years I've seen two T-5 Turbo Coupes and maybe one to none T-5 2.3 Mustangs. So, even 2.3 T-5's aren't just lying around on the ground.  Think this through before committing. Tire size, rear axle ratio, type of driving, budget, mechanical skills, expectations, alterations (driveshaft, speedometer, shift lever location, clutch disc etc.) - are just a few things that come to mind.

I was fortunate that my '88 Turbo Coupe was my daily driver for 10 years. An insurance pay out (other parties fault) basically made the car free. It just so happened that my C-4, 6-3/4" rear end driveshaft fit perfectly to my T-5, 8" swapped rear end without alteration. I still had to hunt up a 86 or older bellcrank bellhousing (87-88 were hydraulic), pedals, cable, make the trans crossmember modifications, create a new cable mount (elevate over the crossmember), shorten the shifter etc.. So it is not just out with the old and bolt in the new. I'm not trying to discourage, but I do feel a responsibility to present many of the aspects of the swap.


Update: I ran the tag number and it is an 87-88 Mustang/Capri 2.3 trans. So, it is WC.  1352-162 Ford 87-88 Mustang/Cap ri 2.3 240 3.97 2.34 1.46 1 0.79 3.7 7T Y(WC)  http://www.mongosgarage.com/tech/t5/T5Numbers.PDF


Here is the Ebay link:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mustang-t5-transmission-87-88-2-3-79-93-ford-/122625095872?hash=item1c8d0678c0:g:iHMAAOSwj85Zf0Pa&vxp=mtr

Pintosopher

Quote from: Henrius on October 14, 2017, 05:39:31 AM
The Quaife Rocket Box seems to be a FOUR speed with close gears, so I don't see how they would slow down the engine revs on the highway.

Thos Merkur T-9s are sure rare. Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay. How easy is it to swap the bell housing from my original 4 speed to the T-5? I am starting to wonder if this is a worthwhile project.
The Quaife T-9 is available with a variety of Ratios 1st thru 5th Gears. It's called a Clubman box and has a all alloy gearcase and some improvements internally. But it does have a limit to HP for reliability (190) and it's over 2000 Pounds UK in price. The Rocket box is indeed a 4speed with other ratios available, but again , a expensive option.
My comments were related to Hillclimb racing and the effect of a single ratio (3:40) not being ideal for that usage. My car went down the road in 4th just fine with the 23 inch tires and that gear on regular roads and street usage. Fuel mileage was acceptable with dual DCOE 40's and the car regularly delivered 25 MPG if you kept a light foot on the highway.
If your application requires a 5th gear, then I would recommend the T-9 with its limitations

Pintosopher, It's in the Feed Mix that makes for happy horses ;D
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Henrius

Quote from: robertwwithee on October 06, 2017, 08:01:28 PM
I just picked a T9 from merkur.  Let u know how it goes next week.  I did the T5 already.  3.4 rear, 23imch tire, 70mph/3000rpms. Netted 32mpg

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Your car had the T5, and you are converting to a T9? Just curious, why are you doing that? Was the T-5 conversion not satisfactory?
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Henrius

Quote from: pintosopher on October 06, 2017, 10:19:35 AM
I suppose it depends on the Ratios available in the T9. I shopped around for the Ford 4 speed that had the closer 1st to 2nd ratios  for AutoX, but later went to hillclimbing and would have needed a 5 speed or the Closer 2nd 3rd 4th ratio box. Of course, a Quaife Rocket box can solve anything if you have the $$$. I had to use 20inch diameter slicks to get my final drive (3:40) to even pull the longer straight sections , and that's with 170 hp @ 6500RPM . 4th was nearly unusable everywhere.

Pintosopher, Spinning the driveshaft, not Yarns :D

The Quaife Rocket Box seems to be a FOUR speed with close gears, so I don't see how they would slow down the engine revs on the highway.

Thos Merkur T-9s are sure rare. Found PLENTY of World Class T-5s on E-Bay. How easy is it to swap the bell housing from my original 4 speed to the T-5? I am starting to wonder if this is a worthwhile project.
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!

Henrius

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 11, 2017, 04:51:51 PM
An early Capri would be another good find. The Capri club of America is a fairly large club so the cars are still out there. The Mexico Escort would be in the top of my bucket list.

But I thought early Capris had the same 4 speed that the 2.0 Pinto had. When did they have a 5-speed? Was it that same tranny as the Merkur T-9?
1973 Pinto Runabout with upgraded 2.0 liter & 4 speed, and factory sunroof. My first car, now restored, and better than it was when it rolled off the assembly line!