News:

Changes Continue... Scott Hamilton

Main Menu

Mini Classifieds

77-78 front grill
Date: 04/07/2017 12:35 am
1970-1973 British 4 Speed Manual; Parts or Whole
Date: 03/17/2019 03:57 am
1972 pinto grill
Date: 02/27/2018 12:13 am
Clutch Fork
Date: 03/31/2018 09:12 pm
4 speed pinto transmission

Date: 05/13/2021 05:29 pm
Needed, 2.0 or 2.3 motors
Date: 09/30/2018 07:47 pm
1973 Pinto Runabout

Date: 03/25/2019 09:02 pm
79-80 full glass hatch

Date: 01/04/2017 04:04 am
1978 FORD PINTO PONY FOR SALE 17.000 MILES !!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: 06/25/2021 12:59 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,896
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,582
  • Total Topics: 16,269
  • Online today: 2,399
  • Online ever: 2,944 (Yesterday at 11:57:36 PM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 1558
  • Total: 1558
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Blue 72

Started by Reeves1, April 15, 2012, 11:45:09 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pinto_one

Nice job on the engine mount brackits , hope you used a very common engine mount in case you need one in the future , I know the mustang II mounts are gold now and worst since they have a left and a right , also noticed your mount bolt is too short , Guess working on aircraft I see details like that , we always have the shank of the bolt in shear and use washer to space the nut to the threads and not have any load on the threads , looking at the perfect work your doing it should be art that could be hung on the wall to be admired .
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Reeves1

New mount came in & I bolted it in place.
I have looked things over a number of times & I have the rest of the mount figured out.....just have to make it !

Reeves1

Worked on the motor mounts.
I still have more welding to do after the engine comes out.
I also will be adding a small pipe that the bolt will go through& weld in
Welding is hard in tight areas. That will be corrected...






Motor center line to diff set up perfect. Had to off set the front of the engine 3/8" to the right , to get the proper alignment.
Car is level front to back & side to side.
Carb flange tilts back 3.5 degrees. Will be level when car is done.
Engine level as well.







Next will be the trans mount. Waiting on a new mount from Ford. Then I'll make the cross member.
After that ,I'll make custom Headers - cross overs.

pinto_one

found it , its made by snow white industries , this looks like it useing the damper you have , its a two grove pulley but you can machine one off , they say it is two inchs shorter , hope this will help some , later Blaine
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

pinto_one

Guess picking the right parts to make it work can be very trying ,  wish I had photos to share but long since gone after 45 years ,a couple of divorces and a house fire you lose memories and most of your mind , know I made it work , with the excellent job that your doing to make it perfect any info will help from the past ,, what I do remember that the best damper (at least for 71 to 73 ) was the thin one , three bolt with a flat pulley , the one I use was off a dealer installed A/C that was cast iron and three groves , machined off two of them , the water pump after the mods done to it made the edge almost touched the water inlet on the pump after the bearing and flange was pushed to almost touch the seal inside the pump ,(or see it at the weep hole one the side , somehow the belt lined up and the back of the alternator just missed the back of the block ,  the radiator support brackets I put on backwards so I could make spacers to move it forward to the max to save space , the fan was a flex one with it bolted straght to the pump , guess some one will see this post and have a pile of 302 pumps and covers to see what is shorter , their is some company that did make a real short pump and pulley set up , dont know if they are still around but will check and post if they are to save time and gray hair pulling , later and stay safe , Blaine
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Reeves1

I use the Ford Racing short water pump & CVF Racing V pulleys meant for this system . Saves 1.5"

I had no choice on the B2 damper.

Next one will be a 302w & likely an after market damper.
Plus I'm moving the engine way back & should be able to get a radiator behind the rad support.

Going to custom make a set of Headers : That is why I put the two sets of Headman Headers up for trade.

pinto_one

This remonds me of my first V-8 pinto I done back in 72 , used a 289 , only thing bad it was to long and I did not want to cut the rad support , noticed you have the long damper and the one I used was short , and had three bolts , saved a inch there , then a fellow working for my dad should me a trick to shorten the water pump by pushing the bearing into the water pump two inchs or more after machineing the nose off the water pump housing , did everything to shorten the engine (had a machine shop ) and it worked , still used the stock hood latch , now I guess the ford exploer 5.0 timing cover and pump may do the same , on a Pinto engine swap every inch counts ,, been there ,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Reeves1

Drives me buggy when folks strip a car & send that roller to scrap. Just because they want it to roll.

Many parts can no longer be found.

Not sure what the name of these are - clip nuts ?
They are for the upper control arms. Clip into place & bolts go through the control arm - 1972.

Being on a tight budgit right now...looked up home made rust removal.
Mixed Vinegar & salt. Soaked 3-4 days & washed up.
Buffed on my bench grinder with wire wheel.
Self etch primer & paint = better & more rust proofed than what Ford did.







Reeves1

Motor isn't where it's going to be. The aluminum bell I have on has ribs & a raised area where the clutch fork goes & I cannot get it back far enough, till I get the new Quick Time Bell # 6065.
Right now it's about 1/4" above the rack. It will be going back another 1.5" to 2" yet.
Going to make my own Headers & sell the two sets of Headman Headers I have.
New rack from Flaming River.








71pintoracer

I'd like to see a picture of the oil pan you're using with it in the car to see what kind of clearance there is. My MII pan in the '71 had maybe an inch? maybe?  in front of and above the rack. The '77 power steering rack is bigger so.....
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Reeves1

Pan ? Explain more & I'll take pictures...

71pintoracer

On the early headers the two back tubes go down beside the inner frame rail, the front two go under the crossmember.  The Hookers l have for the '77 have two tubes going out through the inner fender wells like the ones you have but the other tubes go inside of the frame rails not under the crossmember. I cut the inner fender wells and radiator support out, the cage is going to come through the firewall and l'm using a motor plate not frame motor mounts so that gives a lot more clearance. l'm moving the firewall as well so your pics are a big help! Can you get a picture of the pan in the car?
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Reeves1

I can still move the engine back 1.5" to 2" . Where the T-5 shifter is right now.



Headers on the left is up against the rack & touches the cross member, due to being moved back so far. I had test fit them on the white car while the B2 was away getting built, and they fit OK.



I have more to cut out yet.








I wasn't going to do this much (and for the 2nd time) but due to being off work & no sight of when I'll return to work.......plus I want to try and get the radiator BEHIND the rad support.....or at least have more room for the electric fan(s) than the white car.

Engine is just put together from spare parts & not the one that will go in it. Not the Bell I'll be getting as well. The Quick Time bell I'll be using is over $700 now & would be out dated (SFI) before the car is on the road again.

Reeves1

The Milodon pan is 8 QT + the filter.
The back goes down sharply & allows for more room to go backwards.

Reeves1

Sounds like yours are the Hookers ? Back two tubes go through the inner fenders & down by the control arms....like the ones made for my B2 ?




71pintoracer

Is the Milodon pan better than the MII? As far as moving the engine back? I think my early headers are Hedman, (for sale btw} 3 piece and 2 of the tubes went under the crossmember. But l have no doubt you can make anything you want!

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Reeves1

I always use the 30925 Milodon pans: https://www.milodon.com/oil-pans/ford-oil-pans.php

I have (2) sets of the old school Headman Headers.

They are not going to work - tested today. As you know, the frame rails narrow as they go back.

I may make a custom set.....or look into the ones people have used - shorties put on backwards ?

I like the idea of making my own & know I can do it......

71pintoracer

Are you using swap headers and a MII pan or custom made pieces? When l put the 5.0 in my '71 the pan and headers dictated how far back the engine could go. I did move the firewall back a few inches though. Glad you're on the mend!
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Reeves1

Getting better fairly fast. Moving around helps.

Went to the shop, easy day planned......ya, right ! LOL

Re-cut the fire wall. I want to get the engine far enough back to put the radiator where it belongs.

Drop a 302w block in & a bell/ T-5 trans.

More cutting need in a couple small fire wall areas & the tunnel.

Today I'll put heads & intake / carb on so I can plan on what / where to cut. As well as a set of Headman Headers.

Wittsend

Feel for you. I have been on ladders trimming trees. I did something??? to my knee. Not obvious at first but developed over time. It has been nearly a month now and no better. I can walk OK, but move j u s t the wrong way and ouch! Hope you get better.

Reeves1

No idea how / why, blew my right knee out & cannot get out to the shop.
So things on hold for now....

Reeves1

More progress with the dash mods.
I didn't drill for the speedo yet. Want to get it first so I get the hole the right size.
I had some antique lights I decided to use in this car.
The upper small ones are red , for warning lights.
Lower ones are green & are for signal lights.
Need 5 gauges for what I want to install.
The panels will be sanded & painted a trim black.


Reeves1

Made another out of aluminum 0.050 thick.

Weight is 5.3 oz or 150 grams.

Reeves1

Quote from: 71pintoracer on March 05, 2020, 07:44:59 PM
That's what kept the cost down. A base '71 Pinto was $1919.00! 1600cc engine, no radio, no cigarette lighter lol my '71 Pintoracer had 3 options, 2.0 engine, auto trans, and AM radio. Drum brakes, rubber floor mat instead of carpet and no cigarette lighter! It had a little metal delete plate! I still have it!

Something in your post about no cig lighter triggered a memory.

Dug out my ash tray & sure enough, no lighter & it has that plug thingy in place !

Reeves1

Wittsend - BOSS 302 ones go for crazy money !

The OEM one I have cost me $15.00 ! LOL

I'll be making a heater delete plate as well.
Heater / defroster is required to pass a safety up here, so a small electric one will be made to fit under the dash.
Going to delete the OEM heater in this blue car.

Wittsend

I think in the 80's and upward the delete plate became a hot item because magazines would do articles on 60's drag cars. You know those cars with special aluminum front ends, aluminum bumpers, batteries in the trunk, gutted interiors etc.. It was at that point that the plate took on an important life of its own. That being if you had a radio delete plate (and possibly a heater delete plate too) then YOUR car was like these rare factory race cars!

I think 72DW's delete plate account runs in the same vain as my Rambler delete plate. That being the irony of it all.

Reeves1

Well, went to town yesterday & got some aluminum plate.
Then talked with a welder & he talked me out of using aluminum.
Oh well, $10.00 & will be used someplace else anyway.

I have some steel but it's thicker than I wanted. Just the same, I went ahead & built one.

OEM one weighs 288 grams / 10.2 OZ.

Mine weighs 416 grams / 14.7 OZ.

I'll blast & paint in a couple days. Was -20c this morning. Fits perfect.

Cost for mine will be less than $10.00 with paint !






72DutchWagon

I got the radio delete plate, Ford part number D4FZ-6204371-A, from nospartsltd.com last year. Price was/is $ 22.09, I think I paid something like $ 60.00 including shipping to the Netherlands. Luckily it went below the customs radar. Still a lot of money for a tin plate but hey, sounds better then $ 225.00, and it's the original item in the original box.
Isn't this a strange world in which a piece that is worth almost nothing gets lovingly pressed, painted and boxed, then sent out to be shelved, becomes obsolete in ten years, then remains shelved and collecting dust for another 30 years, and then is allowed to fulfill its humble purpose half way across the globe... Just the idea of getting this poor tin plate out in the sun and have it travel was part of the reason I bought it.

71pintoracer

That's what kept the cost down. A base '71 Pinto was $1919.00! 1600cc engine, no radio, no cigarette lighter lol my '71 Pintoracer had 3 options, 2.0 engine, auto trans, and AM radio. Drum brakes, rubber floor mat instead of carpet and no cigarette lighter! It had a little metal delete plate! I still have it!
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

HOSS429

it`s my profile picture ..