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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Brownie's 2.0 - What a sssslllluuugggg

Started by dave1987, December 15, 2011, 11:43:31 PM

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dave1987

I thought I would have gotten a lot farther tonight than I did. I started to put the motor back together tonight, got the oil pan on and the block shaft covers/seals on, but I forgot to put the steering rack back in place before I put the pan up and secured it. I tried to lift the motor up but there still wasn't enough clearance to slide the rack between the pan and the cross member. I then unbolted the top bolts for the motor mounts and tried to get more clearance, which just led to a two hour headache of still not being able to get the rack back in place, and then the motor wouldn't go back onto the mount on the driver side. So I wrestled with that, eventually got the motor back on. I gave up and popped out the tie rod ends and removed the rack entirely.

I guess it's not horrible, since I do need to replace the rack bellows and fill them with oil, so this kind of helps me out. Still frustrating! I was hoping to drop it down and finish putting the head on with all of the gaskets in place so the sealant could cure. :(

I might do that tomorrow, we shall see.

What's left before dropping the car to the ground again:


Replace bellows on steering rack and reinstall it.

Replace sway bar bushings



Once that's done I can put the head on, install the exhaust manifold and intake, connect the exhaust pipe, reinstall the thermostat housing, install the distributor, set the points, time the engine, put the valve cover on, clean and install the carburetor, replace the water choke with the electric one, install the radiator, mount the transmission oil cooler (old A/C condenser), connect the radiator hoses, gap and install the spark plugs, connect the distributor, install the alternator, install the battery, and add the oil.

After that I have to wait so the sealant on the coolant components can cure, then probably wednesday or thursday night I will add the anti-freeze to the cooling system, and start her up for the first time.

I'm thinking six to seven hours tomorrow, if all goes as planed.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!


dave1987

Question....

I am using assembly lube on all the bearings, on the pistons, and will be using it on the cam lobes as well.

What type of oil should I use for the initial run and break in? I was using 20w 50 before the build, but should I use a normal 10w40 for the first 500 miles and then change back to the 20w 50?

I just don't want to starve the motor of proper lubrication after a refreshening
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

I bought a plug tap from Fastenal for $16, and a die to use on the bolts for $6. For reference, the bolt and hole sizes are M12 x 1.75. I used a ratcheting tap handle to chase the threads in the block, which made a huge difference. I picked up the die, which was special order, today and will chase the bolt threads on Sunday.

1) Top on the ratcheting handle

2) Difference between dirty threads and chased threads.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

Been busy cleaning parts and what not. Got the thermostat housing, crank timing cover, aux-shaft cover, pan, belt cover, intake, valve cover, and bolts and stuff cleaned/painted (the blue parts).

I started cleaning the head tonight, I think I may keep the original one as it looks like the valve seats are in great shape so far, though I haven't removed any valves yet, still cleaning carbon out of the chambers. Once that's done I'll pull the valves, clean them up, and lap the valves and seats if they are good.

Need to buy more wire wheels and cleaner, and another set of valve stem seals.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

I'll give them a call tomorrow and report back.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Pintosopher

Scott,
The issue of retorquing head still may apply to the Iron head to Iron Block, But I 've heard people say it's not necessary with the better quality FelPro head gaskets. That retorque procedure was relevant for Hi- Compression motors in the past. Not sure about that with the newer gasket designs. Even O- ringing the blocks is for hi- boost or Very High compression racing motors these days.
Consult the Head gasket Mfr to be sure ..
Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Scott Hamilton

Yes- re torqued my 2000 to 95 lbs after 1000 miles. Can't remember where I read this- what do you say Joe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

dave1987

Just thought about this, do I need to re-torque the head bolts after 500 miles?
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Pintosopher

Dave ,
First beg borrow or buy a "Bottoming tap " of the same size as the head bolts. This will allow thorough cleaning of the threads in Block, and you will not be tightening against corrosion or debris.  Since the 2.0 doesn't use  torque to yield bolts, you can reuse once. My chilton's 71-72 book shows a Torque procedure in three steps: first to 14-29 ft lbs, second 36-50 ftlbs, third 65-80 ft lbs . Starting in the center bolts, and moving outward in a cris- cross pattern to the outside of the head. There is no mention of any thread treatment like Never seize, and that means only lightly oiled threads on the bolts. Dont forget, Cam goes in before head goes on! Have fun..
Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dave1987

Here are some pictures I shot today.

1) Crank timing sprocket. Two holes drilled for bolt puller.

2) Front of crank shaft, not much rust, odd that the sprocket was so stuck!

3) Pistons. 4 - 1, left to right

4) Oil pan with black oil in it. You can see some of the dents in the sump.

1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

Got the gear off today! I ended up drilling holes on opposite sides of the sprocket and tapped them for 1/4" x 28 bolts. I used my gear puller on it, with the aid of the impact wrench since the wrench wasn't enough. Even with the impact wrench, it took about five minutes constantly running to get the sprocket off! However, I do have it off and it is still in one piece! Once that was removed the crank seal housing cover came off without a problem!

Since I didn't want to pull the transmission to raise the motor, I dropped the steering rack, which allowed more than enough clearance to drop the oil pan and the pump pickup.

After the pan was down, I was able to see the cross member, or what was visible of it under all of the 1" thick caked on dirt and oil build up from the past 37 years. It's better now that I have cleaned it with a scraper/putty knife, but not perfect. At least I can see where the metal folds and the curves of the cross member are!

Once that was cleaned up and I wasn't afraid of turning black from touching it all, I pushed the pistons out the top of the motor, cleaned them up and put new rings on them.

I honed out each cylinder with the motor in the car, and cheese cloth at the bottom of each cylinder to catch any particles from the honing process, which really isn't to bad once you have the hood nearly vertical and can stand on the frame while using the hone from above.

Once the pistons, bearings and crank were all lubed up with assembly lube, the pistons were reinstalled and the rod caps were torqued down to 33 ft/lbs, and the motor turned over well without any seizing.


Hopefully tomorrow I can clean up and "re-form" the oil pan, paint it, clean off the mating surface on the block, and put the pan back on. Once that's done the rack will get new bellows and mounted back on. From there it's just a matter of putting the rebuilt head on the block and then everything else should be a breeze!



One question, what should I toque the head bolts down to? I am reusing the original ones, from what I have researched they can be used twice.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

johnbigman2011

Quiet in the operating room, the surgen is at it again. You may have to heat it up to get that gear off.
1972 Trunk Model..... Yeller Feller
1979 Wagon Turbo.... 85 2.3 Turbo
1923 T- Bucket ...... 2.0 Pinto Powered
F 250 Redneck Lincoln .... Pinto Picker upper

dave1987

Also, no ridges on the tops of any of the cylinders, which is good. I won't have to bust out the ridge reamer! :D
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

Any ideas how to get that stuck timing belt sprocket off the crank shaft?

Next up is to pull the pan and pump, clean out the crank case and pound the oil pan back into something that LOOKS like an oil pan! :P


Here are pictures of the cylinders. First is cylinder 1, second is cylinder 2, etc...


1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

Well I started to disassemble the motor today, only found one concerning thing, which is the vertical score line on the number one cylinder against the exhaust side of the cylinder wall. It isn't to deep, and I believe honing will remove it, it isn't quite deep enough to catch a fingernail on. Other than that the cylinders look pretty good. They even still have the has marks from the original honing!

The head gasket was not compromised, however I can tell the valve stem seals were leaking due to the heavy carbon deposits on the tops of the valves.

The head actually appears to be in great shape. The valves haven't recessed any from what I can tell. I haven't yet pulled it apart to check the stems or the seats yet though. The exhaust valves have A LOT of white deposits on the cylinder side, which I have never seen before, going to research that.

As for dismantling the engine, I finally got around to pulling the AC compressor, which will not be going back on, and the brackets for it as well. I managed to remove the manifolds, head, alternator, auxilary pump sprocket, seal cover, and the crank pulley. I cannot get the front crank cover to come off due to the timing belt sprocket being stuck to the crank shaft.

I wire wheeled the carbon deposits off the piston crowns and remains of the head gasket material from the deck. Carbon deposits wern't bad on any of the piston crowns, but only slightly heavier on the number 4 piston, but nothing difficult to remove.



Here are some pictures:


1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

Thanks RSM, that's motivating! I'm still going to pull the head and change the head gasket since I have a good spare head already freshened up and ready to go. If there is a lot of carbon build up on the pistons, is it save to wire wheel it off?


One question I just tossed around in my head...

How much slower should this 2.0 w/C4 auto be compared to my 2.3l w/4spd manual when it comes to acceleration?

Even when I had the 2.73 geared axle in my 78 it accelerated faster than this 2.0-auto does, and it has the 3.41 gears!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

RSM

Those numbers look real good on the compression test. The way you described the plugs I would almost bet your problem is going to be valve stem seals.

dave1987

Working on them is one of the most enjoyable things, I think. Doing it yourself, and then driving it and enjoying something you put together with your bare hands is one of the most satisfying things one can do!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

r4pinto

Lol yeah, I'd say that's really good compression for a dry test. Sounds like that engine was really taken care of. Hopefully it isn't too bad. Gotta love cars. If it ain't one thing, it's another.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dave1987

Sorry, I supposed I should have mentioned that, lol.

The compression test was a dry test. I saw no reason to perform a wet test after getting good compression readings in each cylinder while dry.

From what I can gather and what little paperwork I still have from the original owner, it was quite well taken care of before it was parked, and then the original owner passing away. There are some receipts from a couple different Ford dealerships that did oil changes and a valve adjustment from a shop about two years before the car was parked.

When I pull the head I will be able to see how bad the valves and seats are. I have a spare head rebuilt and adjusted to put on after I inspect it all. Hopefully next Wednesday I can get it done, should nothing unexpected come up. (knock on wood)
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

r4pinto

Those compression readings sound good but one question.. Was it a wet or dry test? Also it does sound like either you have a bad valve or valves out of adjustment. 90k on that year of a car could be considered rather high miles. my 77 needed all the bearings replaced at about 115k miles. It also depends how the previous owner took care of the car. The best thing to do is prolly tear down & rebuild the engine so you know it's good & solid.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dave1987

Weird, I just got done with some tests and here's the results:

Compression test yeilded these:

Cyl 1 - 130 PSI
Cyl 2 - 130 PSI
Cyl 3 - 130 PSI
Cyl 4 - 130 PSI

All the same across the board. Engine cranked for six seconds for each cylinder, pressure climbed evenly and the same for all cylinders.


Plug check:

Cyl 1 - Normal, tan colored, no damage or deposits
Cyl 2 - Normal, tan colored, no damage or deposits
Cyl 3 - Dark brown, Light carbon deposits, no damage though
Cyl 4 - Normal, tan colored, no damage or deposits

No oil on the threads, no oil anywhere other than that.


Pressurized the cylinders up to 100 PSI:

I cannot remember the exact results, but at less than 60 PSI there I was getting pressure in the valve cover. I could hold my hand over the oil cap hole for five seconds and release it. Built up air would escape after removing my hand.

I remember that on two cylinders (specificly three and four) it seems the valves are damaged or not closing completely (may need another valve adjustment), as I kept getting a steady small amount of air out the tailpipe.

I didn't ever get any bubbles in the radiator though. Odd, because I have coolant leaking from SOMEWHERE. I popped the cap off before doing anything and there wasn't even enough coolant to cover the tops of the fins. I had to top it off with 1/3 of a gallon of coolant.



Coolant loss concerns me, since I rarely drive the car, maybe three or four times a month in the past three months, and even then, 3/4 of the times it is only down the road 1/4 mile to work, and back. Not even long enough for the engine to warm up completely.

I stopped driving it so much because of the smoking under heavy acceleration or hill climbing issue. I was originally thinking coolant leaking into the cylinders due to a bad head gasket or something.

I suppose things will become clearer once the head is off.



1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dave1987

1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Srt

Quote from: dave1987 on December 17, 2011, 02:17:48 AM
Walt I think you are on the right track. Hopefully with the head pulled it will be a no brainer as to what is going on.

Brain: I was thinking that to, but I have gone through three modulators on this (once replaced on this transmission before the rebuild, one on the spare transmission, and now another new on the current rebuild). I have never seen any transmission fluid in the line though, at either end.

I have been planning to swap out the water choke for an electric one, identical to my 78's, for ease of troubleshootin g and a sure fire unit that I know and have experience with, just haven't found the time to do the swap.

Dave, it sounds like your transmission has what is commonly called "transmission morning sickness". Brownie did it on the current transmission before the rebuild and shortly have the low mileage spare was installed. While it is still drivable, it won't be for much longer. The symptoms are identical to a transmission low on fluid.

What is going on is your clutches are worn/burned/glazed, and your seals are bad (most likely dry and hard) to the point where they no longer are a friction surface. In Brownie's case, the clutches were worn, and the steel plates were glazed), also the seals in the clutch packs were hard as ABS plastic and broke into pieces during removal. I used a Pioneer kit to rebuild my C4, and it wasn't hard to do at all, just time consuming. In fact, it came with an extra set of clutches which I am putting into the spare C4 transmission I have at my parent's garage before I move it to my storage unit.

Here is the link to my C4 rebuild thread. I have PM'd you the link as well.

I think that your thread on the rebuilding of your trans was / is one of the best I have ever read.  It really got to the point and was very easy to read and understand.
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

dave1987

Walt I think you are on the right track. Hopefully with the head pulled it will be a no brainer as to what is going on.

Brain: I was thinking that to, but I have gone through three modulators on this (once replaced on this transmission before the rebuild, one on the spare transmission, and now another new on the current rebuild). I have never seen any transmission fluid in the line though, at either end.

I have been planning to swap out the water choke for an electric one, identical to my 78's, for ease of troubleshooting and a sure fire unit that I know and have experience with, just haven't found the time to do the swap.

Dave, it sounds like your transmission has what is commonly called "transmission morning sickness". Brownie did it on the current transmission before the rebuild and shortly have the low mileage spare was installed. While it is still drivable, it won't be for much longer. The symptoms are identical to a transmission low on fluid.

What is going on is your clutches are worn/burned/glazed, and your seals are bad (most likely dry and hard) to the point where they no longer are a friction surface. In Brownie's case, the clutches were worn, and the steel plates were glazed), also the seals in the clutch packs were hard as ABS plastic and broke into pieces during removal. I used a Pioneer kit to rebuild my C4, and it wasn't hard to do at all, just time consuming. In fact, it came with an extra set of clutches which I am putting into the spare C4 transmission I have at my parent's garage before I move it to my storage unit.

Here is the link to my C4 rebuild thread. I have PM'd you the link as well.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dieseldave4443

I think your pinto n mine are twins separated at assembly in the fremont plant down in the SF bay area. I too am having smoke issues-checked the plugs n they look new-almost like I'm running too hot? Mine has 91k and was thinking about a top-end rebuild. I have slowly been fixing things here n there, this week repaired/replaced driver's side door hinge pins n bushings. Front calipers weren't fully engaging so gave them a taps with a BFH and cleaned surface rust at friction points. I'll definetly check the vac line from tranny! Mine especially when its cold like now in the 20's n 30's after warm up I put it in drive n nothing happens? I have to cycle the shifter back to park then down each selection then back up to drive before it goes? Have you experienced this?

phils toys

the part cookieboy is talking about is the vacum module
i just changed it on  my maverick. mine was going through a quart of trans fluid in a week burning some and the rest ended in the oil pan.
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede