Mini Classifieds

FLOOR PANS
Date: 06/12/2020 07:24 pm
1971-73 2.0 motor moiunts
Date: 05/17/2024 09:18 pm
Pinto Vinyl Top

Date: 10/09/2020 10:29 pm
71/72 Pinto front end bushing kit
Date: 02/05/2017 09:45 am
Looking for a 1980 windshield
Date: 07/30/2020 04:51 pm
windshield
Date: 04/14/2018 08:53 pm
1973 Pangra gauge and tach panel

Date: 11/02/2019 10:25 am
Pinto or Bobcat wagon wanted
Date: 08/05/2018 10:49 pm
73 2.0 Timing Crank Gear & Woodruff key WANTED
Date: 09/01/2017 07:52 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,670
  • Online ever: 2,670 (Today at 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 669
  • Total: 669
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Cant get pinto started. Been sitting 16 years. - Correction, it started!

Started by pintoguy76, October 04, 2007, 05:49:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

douglasskemp

PVC hoses have weird bends in them, maybe you can find one with the right diameter and trim to fit?  Just a thought.  Also, I think I remember Chevy having a weird 90 bend hose on top of the water pump.  Been a while since I've played with a bowtie, so I may be wrong.
The Pinto I had I gave to my brother. The car was originally my mom's, (78 red Pinto sedan with a 2.3 and a 4spd.) I am originally from Tucson, AZ but moved to Oxnard CA :D
I'm looking for a Pinto wagon with an automatic.

pintoguy76

Im still kinda broke and havnt gotten the title to the car yet but the guy should have it any time now. He had to apply for a lost title. I did have a lil bit of cash that i could spend on the car so today i bought a new thermostat housing (the old one rusted to nothing) and a thermostat and gasket. Ill put it on tomorrow. Might get a new wtr pump for it too... so the engine part will be done. Still need upper and lower radiator hoses, a way to hook that one last heater hose up (ill explain that in a minute), a carburetor kit and brake pads. Ive been using the carb from my 76 to start it and run it. Also that reminds me i accidently ran over the kickdown rod for this thing so i need one of those too. It's all bent up. I took it off because it was in the way, i couldnt figure out how it get it back on right. (This is my first automatic pinto). Cant wait to get it fully drivable.  Now for the heater hose thing. I found a  plastic 90 degree elbow, the guy at the parts store said he didnt have any 90 degree rubber hose elbows I'll have to use a section of  5/8" hose on each end of this 90 degree plastic elbow i got to be able to hook it up. :O that will take 4 clamps. Not sure i want to do that.  But anyways ill keep looking for that if this doesnt work out very well.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

TIGGER

Good job!  As for the 5/8" 90 degree heater hose, I replaced mine a few years back.  I bought it at Napa, it was like $7-$8. 
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

pintoguy76

It runs and drives now. I had to put a master cylinder on it. Got it put on, bled the MC and all 4 brakes in proper order and now the brakes work pretty good. However there must be a warped rotor (or maybe its all those grooves i found in that one?) because the pedal pulses up and down and slows down as the car slows down. The brakes are metal to metal on the right front and have made 2 little grooves in the rotor. Car will need a tune up i think, (did mention it has the original 1979 duraspark wires on it? :O) and still needed hoses and clamps. Also needs a new water neck. The old one has rusted to nothing. with all this said i was able to keep water in it so i could move it up and down the street once. It'll need flushed out pretty good before its driven, new upper and lower radiator hoses, a new tstat and housing, gonna get a new waterpump wether it needs it or not, and the heater hoses well lets just say those are gonna have to wait. Thats alot more work than i am up for at the moment. I had to cut the hose that runs from the tstat housing to the heater hose.. its a short little section that connects the tstat housing to the metal line. I replaced it with a short piece of heater hose but that has kinked it up and cant be letting anywater thru. Do they make a special molded hose for that or am i doing something wrong? Its only like 3 inches long... lol. Anyways thats it for this update i think.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

It started today. Took it a bit to get going just like the last engine but it runs pretty good. I did notice the blowby seems pretty bad tho. Its smoking out the vent in the oil cap. That MIGHT work itself out but i am kind of doubting it. That would be too nice to happen to me. LOL. Never know tho. :)
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

I did end up out there again. I got the engine and transmission back in the car.  Got the engine bolted down, but the transmission is only supported on a jack. Thats as far as i got. Speaking of the ift, i broke one of the wheels last night. I was working in the dirt (well, somewhat mud now)  and it didnt want to move. I forced it to move :D and it ripped one of the wheels apart. lol. That did indeed make it a bit lopsided but i got it in. Going to go out  in a lil while and finish it up. Hopefully i can get it to start today. Will have to "borrow" the carb from the 76 again. One of these days i'll get the 79s carb back together. Just right now in between pay-days, $30 is alot of money for a kit to me. :D Think i'm gonna have to have a master cylinder before i can drive it, too. The reservoir is full, no leaks anywhere but the pedal goes strait to the floor. Feels as tho the pedal isnt even connected to anything. I think that happened when i rescued my POS 72 chev after it set only a measly little 3 years. It had to have a MC too. Will keep this posted.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

High_Horse

PintoGuy76,
      Have you never herd of Galoshes. Get out there and Get-er-Done.
Oh...And inspect your lifting system for adiquate stability.  ;D

                                                                                                        Mudder_Horse

Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

pintoguy76

I got the piot bearing out today.... in a milion pieces :D ... got the trans bolted up... started putting on some of the accessories..then it started raining. Dangit. Always something in my way of progress. The storm should blow thru quick, maybe i can go out there and roll around in the mud. Or just wait until tomorrow, not sure which.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

If I have problems with those I either use a small part of a hacksaw blade in a visegrip (score it then hit it with a punch) or I use a small hook I made and a dent puller. One or the other always works.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

I thought about chiseling it out too. I dont have a chisel so i will have to go get one. Maybe ill have sometime today to work on it.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

TIGGER

Yup,I ran into the same problem on  my cruising wagon last winter.  You need to remove it in order for the torque converter to seat properly.  The hook for my slide hammer was too big so I ended up chiseling it out.  I tried the grease trick but it did not work for me.  I too was on a roll and hit a 4 hour road block with that stupid pilot bearing.  Needless to say, once I got it out, I quit for the day.  Good luck man

79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

pintoguy76

Ok. I am taking a chance and installing the 2.3 ive had laying around as a spare. It came from a 79 I parted out back in may. It was "supposed" to run. But i have never seen or heard it run. I know basically nothing about it. Dont even know how long its been sitting. Its alot of work so i hope it runs. I was well on my way to getting the engine back in today when i hit a roadblock. The engine came from a car with a manual transmission. (Can you see where i'm going? lol) While looking at something i happened to notice that the torque converter slips in the end of the crankshaft right where the pilot bearing is at. Dangit! How the world do you remove that lil bugger? I was doing so well, too.  I just left the pilot bearing in my 72 chevy when i put the engine in it (its automatic, truck the motor came from was manual) and it was fine. So i was just going to leave this one in also. Then i realized theres a little thing that sticks up out of the converter and fits into the back of the crank.  Cant go on until its out. Ive heard of using a slide hammer but ive never seen one before and dont know how it works. I just hope this engine really is good. Or atleast good enough to last until i get a 2.3 turbo for it. I have problems with the city having unlicensed vehicles around, so i have to do something with it to get it to pass state inspection atleast. Then it can sit all it wants... as long as the tires are up, it isnt visibly inoperable, and its tagged. Somewhere in this neighborhood is a tattle tale. They dont come looking for violators, they just come verify when complaints are received. If it werent for this problem, i'd just leave it sitting until i could do it right.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

High_Horse

PintoGuy76,
     I would bore it to the next size over. If you feel around inside that #2 hole you should feel a worn spot down there where the piston goes from the downward motion to the upward motion, that hopefully is not to deep to bore to the next size. Mine wasn't. Piston to bore clearance is supposed to be 0.0014 to 0.0022. I'll bet that bore is 0.003 or is badly tapered toward the bottom. I had my machinist shoot for 0.0011 and I let the rings wear to the bottom specs. This was acually the turning point in my Piston to wall additute and I have never had an engine bored to over 0.0015 and I don't even look in the book. Here is a fun fact....I had my machinist hold a bore in my 2800 v-6 to .0008 at the rough cut and he said I was crazy and it would never work...I drove that car (twas ThunderPinto) for ten years till I did the v8 conversion.


                                                                           High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

pintoguy76

Feeling better. Got the engine and trans out. Found a busted piston in cylinder 2. Engine has 97k on it. Can I get by with putting in new pistons and rings? Would there normally be a ridge in there that would need reamed out before the old pistons will come out with only 97k? The engine ran incredibly smooth and quiet (except for of course the busted piston). Hope to get this going soon. I have a spare engine from another 79 i could put in it but i have not heard it run. Its supposed to run, but i have never heard it. Dont know how many miles are on it, etc. Came from  a car i parted out, but couldnt start it. The wiring was all cut up and stuff. Hate to hook it up to this auto trans and then have to rip it back out if it doesnt run. Its so much more work installing and removing an auto trans than it is a manual. lol
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

Quote from: Pintony on October 06, 2007, 05:45:57 PM
I pulled the engine and could not find a problem with the bottm end...
So I pulled the head.
From Pintony

I'm gonna pull this engine and see what i can see. I'll check it all out, bearings and pistons, and if i dont find a problem ill pull the head.  Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep you all posted. It might be a few days before i do anything else. I've got a killer toothache that has swollen my gum up on the right side. I look like ive got half a golf ball in my mouth on that side. I dont feel like doing much altho ibuprofen helps alot so maybe ifi keep taking that, i can get some work done on this car
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

Quote from: High_Horse on October 06, 2007, 05:36:54 PM
PintoGuy76,
      I bought a 78 Cruising wagon years ago and it had a little knock that went away when it warmed up. Well I drove it till the knock just got louder and louder and finally I took it apart. I can't remember which one but one of the pistons was broken( like the skirts were broke off) and it looked broken. When I took it to the motor shop then to get it bored the motor guy did say something about excessive clearences in the 2300 motors. Aside from Pintonys suggestion about the head gasket breech your engine might have a broken piston. Of course you said that it was not burning oil(no smoke). This was something that I experienced. Keep at is 76 your getting allot of valuable experience.

                                                                                       High_Horse

The knock at startup is piston slap.  This knock is consistant all the time. If i rev it way up it seems to stop... but thats probably bad bad bad lol. Actually that almost sounds like a main bearing doing that but id swear this is a rod. Id hate to be under the hood if it flung/hurdled a rod thru the block at me. lol. I'll probably pull the engine and check it out. It shouldnt take too long.  I have a spare engine from a 79 i parted out back in may, but it hasnt run in several years but it was supposed to be good. No easy way of knowing  without putting it in the car and starting it. I probably should put it on the stand, flip it upside down, and replace the seals and bearings. And pan gasket too of course (but then again while im at it i should replace the oil pump.... rebuild the head, etc LOL.) I'll probably just drop it in and run it until hopefully i can fix the original one. Its only got 97k on it (hard to believe its knocking already).  Somone also mentioned (as i have heard before) that some 2.3s didnt get oil holes drilled into the rods so maybe this one was one of those  that didnt get the oil holes and was never fixed under warranty. As for the 76, I depend on it to take me everywhere i go. I think i am going to put that project off to the side until this 79 is done then i can depend on it (hopefully). Then i'll take the 76 apart and do somework to it. I've noticed its smoking quite a bit latly, it has a burned valve in cylinder 3 and probably needs valve seals so i'll rebuild the head and install a T5 and rebuild the suspension, and fix the 1/4 panel damage it has.  May even leave the engine alone, and just take it out and install a 2.3 turbo like  i've been wanting to do for a while. It's got an 8 inch rear so all i have to do is drop it and the trans in place get it all hooked up correctly and go.  And  actually this engine did smoke quite a bit....it might have been from all the 2 cycle oil i stuffed in the cylinders burning off (i make it sound like it was alot but it really wasnt).... or it could have damaged valve seals from sitting for so long.... or the oil ring could be stuck still or it could have a broken piston... or (the list goes on). Anyways. I have a brand new unused set of silvolite 2.3 pistons. They are standard size. If it turns out i have a broken piston, can i hone the cylinders and install these new standard pistons (that ive had on the shelf for years) with new rings and be ok? Its got 97k on it,  i really expect no less than 200k from a 2.3, i have seen many of them go alot longer than that. Point being, with only 97k the bores should be somewhat decent still to be able to use standard pistons, plus i have them on the shelf and they'll probably never get used otherwise. (what was i thinking when i bought standard pistons?) Naturally, if it gets the new pistons/rings it will get pretty much new everything else.  Bearings, seals, pumps (oil and water, getting a new water pump anyways) gaskets, and atleast new seals and bearings in the head.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

Quote from: TIGGER on October 06, 2007, 03:52:34 PM
What was causing your module and coil to get hot?  DId you just swap them out?

I guess it was just because i had been cranking on it too much i dont know for sure.  It probably is bad, tho. Before i even put a battery in it and even tried to start it, i noticed the epoxy has started running down the inner fender. Which tells me that happened 16 years ago. lol. I am sure it will need a new module and maybe more. I notied yesterday the plug wires are blue with an orange boot, and say duraspark on them as well as "1979". That sounds to me like original plug wires!!  :surprised: :amazed:
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Pintony

Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 06, 2007, 01:00:03 PM
  How did you discover the headgasket was the problem?
I pulled the engine and could not find a problem with the bottm end...
So I pulled the head.
From Pintony

High_Horse

PintoGuy76,
      I bought a 78 Cruising wagon years ago and it had a little knock that went away when it warmed up. Well I drove it till the knock just got louder and louder and finally I took it apart. I can't remember which one but one of the pistons was broken( like the skirts were broke off) and it looked broken. When I took it to the motor shop then to get it bored the motor guy did say something about excessive clearences in the 2300 motors. Aside from Pintonys suggestion about the head gasket breech your engine might have a broken piston. Of course you said that it was not burning oil(no smoke). This was something that I experienced. Keep at is 76 your getting allot of valuable experience.

                                                                                       High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

TIGGER

What was causing your module and coil to get hot?  DId you just swap them out?
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

pintoguy76

Thats very strange. I guess its possible. I had low comp numbers (#1 was really low lol)  but i should probably retest it. Will be interesting to see its numbers now that its run a while. BTW, this knock is prettty bad even at idle. It actually seems to somewhat go away at higher RPM.  How did you discover the headgasket was the problem?
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Pintony

Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 05, 2007, 07:49:07 PM
It finally started today.  It runs good and amazingly smooth... but knocks like hell. Its definantly a rod.

Hello pintoguy76,
I would have sworn that I had a rod knock ot piston pin going out on my Green 72 Pinto. Turned out to be a BLOWN HEADGASKET
The engine ran smooth at idle but knocked like heck under load....
From Pintony

pintoguy76

It finally started today. The module and coil arent getting hot now. I put some 2 cycle oil in the cylinders and put the carb back on and got it all hooked back up, sprayed some starting fluid in it and it finally took off. still had to screw with it for a while tho to get it to finally start. it would hit and start while my foot was on the floor and run slowly and rough and then stall. then it would hit only here and there but once i finally got it started it starts nice and easy now. I think there may have been alot of oil or something in the cylinders making it so hard to start because it smoked like crazy for quite a while after it started. It runs good and amazingly smooth... but knocks like hell. Its definantly a rod. Atleast i got it to run tho lol. Thats what i wanted. Now i know i need a motor, or, if the crank isnt boogered up maybe i can just put a new bearing in it and run it i dunno. What do you think? Also, i am not sure if i have a C4 trans or a C4 trans, but at they longer than the 4speed transmissions? I can remove the engine and trans together on the 2.3/4 speeds (but it likes to scrape on the  core support :() i was wondering if maybe i could do the same on this car. However if the auto trans is longer i probably couldnt do that.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

I tried carb cleaner but not ether. When you say ether do you mean starting fluid (which contains ether) or do you mean actual pure ether? Ive seen both, but i havnt ever seen pure ether here in town anywhere i cant remember the last place i saw it. And if i remeber right it looked like it was in one of those tall propane cylinder like cans. So that would need a special applicator or something...
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

Sorry, I should wake-up before I post.

Yes, the engine needs to run for that stuff to really work.

Did you try the ether? I have had low comp. in engines that would not fire with gas, but would with that.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

"Yamaha sells (and maybe others too) a GREAT additive to free stuck rings. That stuff has done wonders on a few bikes I have had over the years."

Thats the one i was talking about.......
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 05, 2007, 12:23:12 AM
The additive wont do any good until i can get it to run...

What additive?

If you are reffering to the ether I mentioned, that is not an 'additive', thats an 'insted of' (spray can).

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

The additive wont do any good until i can get it to run. Once its running it might work itself out some. Like i said ill change the module and coil and see what happens. Also, can i free up the valves or lifters by removing the valve cover and not having to remove the head? If the problem lies within that somewhere...
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

Yes, better readings with a small amount of oil will indicate worn rings. Keep in mind that if the rings are worn, it can't hold the oil long. After one or two firings, most of the oil will be gone (burned or pushed past the rings).


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

The carburetor was off of it when i tested that so it was WOT essentally. I put the carb from my 76 on it earlier but since i drive my 76 as a daily, it cant stay. I am in the process of getting a kit to put in the 79's carb. The oil might help the engine start and get the oil pressure up. Once the oil pressure is up maybe things will start working right again. It may be a long shot but its worth a try right? And also testing again after the oil is supposed to tell you something. I think an improved reading after oil indicates worn rings or in this case could be stuck rings. Still pondering a valvetrain issue tho. Ill get a new box and coil as soon as i can.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E