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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Nothing is as it seems

Started by qq2ofus, March 09, 2015, 06:50:16 AM

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flash041

qq no offence taken, just trying to help. I'll let you know if one pops up close to me. Y
1978 Pinto Cruising wagon (I am the original owner ! ) Built Aug 15th 1977 in NJ
1993 Mustang LX 2.3 convertible

Wittsend

Ironically to the left of the Cruise Wagon is a 64-66 Studebaker (Lark type). I looked for a year and a half for a replacement windshield and eventually had to settle for one with a bulls-eye and multiple scratches that was 400 miles from home.  Now..., there is one sitting less than 100 miles away. Doesn't it always work out that way.

  I'd say it is a minor miracle that a CL ad poster actually replied (even if the answer wasn't positive). With the cash willing to be spent there will be another Cruise Wagon (and likely a lot better one) coming soon.  Someday this will be you (except in a Cruise Wagon). Studebaker, first drive:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vAUqhzVAaI

qq2ofus

The Wagon is not for sale...............  I did call
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

65ShelbyClone

Someone here in SoCal has a '77-78 Cruising Wagon sitting in the weeds between a bunch of other junk cars. Saw it on CL in the parts section. Might be worth shipping if he'll sell it whole and cheap enough.
http://inlandempire.craigslist.org/pts/4886624612.html

Sniping is a hazard of the job on fleaBait. I do it periodically, but generally have in mind a maximum that I'm willing to pay and just put that in. If someone else wants to pay more or just pay too much, let them be the biggest loser.

That's really what a winning bidder is; the loser. They get the worst price because they won't wait for a better one.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

qq2ofus

This was mine, before her death:
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

qq2ofus

Flash...no Offense buddy but you gotta read the blog !  that vehicle was explained above.....that vehicle was rode HARD, and put away wet....... she is in the pasture....... DOA
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

flash041

They are still out there . Here is one after searching on CL for 5 min . http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/cto/4884976744.html
1978 Pinto Cruising wagon (I am the original owner ! ) Built Aug 15th 1977 in NJ
1993 Mustang LX 2.3 convertible

qq2ofus

Is there anyone in the vicinity of Laurens, SC ...... who could look at a wagon for me ?
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

Wittsend

Ahhh..., the elusive Cruise Wagon.  When I bought my Pinto (standard wagon) in 2007 it was 400 miles away up in San Francisco. The seller had given me a free South West "Buddy Pass" to fly up and get the car.  I opted to fly to Sacramento and have my brother drive me to SF (getting a free visit out of the trip).  When my plane landed I asked my brother to swing by the Mack Rd. Pick 'N Pull as I needed a front turn signal lens for my car.

As we walked through the yard I came across a Cruise Wagon that had one of the windows broken.  I was interested in getting the panels (at some point) but figured that at my "first look" for Pinto parts a set popped up. So, surely there would be others (and hopefully no broken window).  Well..., over the past 8 years I have made at least 100 trips to self serve wrecking yards. And..., sadly, I have never seen another Cruise Wagon.  I've seen whole cars for sale from time to time. So there is greater hope for that than parts.

flash041

Keep a lookout , one will turn up that you can buy. Mabe you you can find one and join us on the Pinto Stampede this summer. And no mine in NOT for sale lol !
1978 Pinto Cruising wagon (I am the original owner ! ) Built Aug 15th 1977 in NJ
1993 Mustang LX 2.3 convertible

Reeves1

One for sale on facebook right now...

OK. that's weird. Just went to get a link for you & it's not there.

qq2ofus

You know ONE thing I am proud to see, is NOT ONE owner has come forth here to say their car is for sale, that in and of itself says a lot about a Pinto Owner, My last Pinto Wagon was white with the decals, and she was immaculate, but alas a guy high on cocaine was parked straddling 2 lanes on a road where I lived, and due to on-coming traffic I did not see his 1972 Olds Delta 88 (Battleship) until there was no way to avoid him.....  I hit him at 55mph, I only had time to put my arm across the space between the windshield and my wife to save her life, I saved my wife, BUT LOST my beautiful girl, my Cruiser, and so far it has been pure hell a day late and a dollar short in finding another, If you saw her, you would remember her, she had 15" ghostbuster logos on each side on the panels.  I was in the Military at the time, and 2 weeks later I was in Combat.... I did not have the time to think about what to do with her remains, so I let my wife handle it.... NOT to think I could have done a front clip on her......  so please if you misred what I was saying, YES I am desperate to have another of the greatest vehicles ever made back in my family, I had 6 prior to her, including 2 77 SHO V-8 Wagons of which only 50 were made........  so If you think I have been rude......  I TRUELY AM SORRY !!  I am getting older each day, and do not want to be an invalid when I get one, sort of like a woman who is approaching her midlife and wanting a baby.............  THAT'S ME !      I AM PROUD OF ALL YOU WHO HAVE A CRUISE WAGON   XOXO
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

qq2ofus

I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

dianne

Quote from: qq2ofus on March 11, 2015, 07:34:54 PM
I will let my money talk:   I am willing to pay up to $10,000 for a finished Cruise Wagon, with Original Interior (refurbished) absolutely great paint, and superb engine condition.........  AUTO OR STANDARD (STANDARD BETTER) and Not a ton of miles on rebuilb.......... hit me up with pictures. I am no joke !!!  Preferred colors are 1. Red 2. Yellow, 3. Orange, 4. Silver(met), 5. Black, 6 White, 7. Other

Put an ad in the Wanted section here and it will propagate through the web. That's a good way to get started.
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

qq2ofus

I will let my money talk:   I am willing to pay up to $10,000 for a finished Cruise Wagon, with Original Interior (refurbished) absolutely great paint, and superb engine condition.........  AUTO OR STANDARD (STANDARD BETTER) and Not a ton of miles on rebuilb.......... hit me up with pictures. I am no joke !!!  Preferred colors are 1. Red 2. Yellow, 3. Orange, 4. Silver(met), 5. Black, 6 White, 7. Other
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

Pintosopher

Which is why we should let our kids learn the lessons of Monopoly, and Marbles ::)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Wittsend

UPDATE: I went back and looked at the bid history. It was claimed this auction was lost by $5.00 in the final 5 seconds. In reality it was lost by $50.00 in the final 8 seconds. You will have to expand the image for clarity.

We will never know if a "bot" was used as claimed, but 8 seconds is very early for a service to bid on someone's behalf.   Seems a waste to pay for the "bot" service and then have 8 seconds hang for others to bid. Maybe the high bid was sent manually? I mean, consistently I get my bids in with 1-3 seconds left doing it manually.

Anyway, I hope this guy has a better understanding of Ebay. He said he wasn't going to use it anymore.  But, if that is so then he likely removes over 50% of the cars available to him. And given his passionate desire to have a Pinto (Cruise Wagon) it will only diminish his chances of getting one.  I'd think that would only create a greater disappointment than he is already expressing.

Hopefully things will work out for him in the end. I hate to see someone want a Pinto that bad and not get one.

dga57

Quote from: Wittsend on March 09, 2015, 07:17:08 PM
"Did you miss the part where I bid almost $1000.00 above what it was at the time I saw it, and then did not lose it till 5 seconds remained in the auction, in my eyes that is dirty pool, never buy from ebay again....." 

No sir, I did not miss that part at all. I completely got it. You found a Pinto you would have like to have had. And, you bid almost $1,000 over the current rate when you placed the bid. So, what did you expect to happen? Have nobody else bid because you wanted the car at that price? Aren't other people allowed to bid up until the close of the auction.  And, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, seconds prior to the close - is before the end of the auction. You did not get beat out buying this Pinto because a "bot" threw in a bid at the last second. You lost because long before, when you upped your last bid, it simply wasn't high enough. Someone else opted to spend more money than you did (or could).

Suppose you had just found this Pinto and the auction was closing in 20 seconds. You log in as fast as you can and set a bid (a good guess, high enough to beat the second highest bidder). You rush and place the bid with 2 seconds to go before the end - and you win.  Would you call your actions "dirty pool?"  I mean the second highest bidder got beat out by you in the final 2 seconds.

What it seems you want is for Ebay to work like a regular auction. Where you always know what the high bid is and for you to have a few seconds to decide if you want to bid beyond that amount. Ebay does not work that way. It never has.  It has a definitive cut-off point (end time) and if you are not the highest bidder at that point you do not win. Straightforwar d and simple. 

Nobody was cheating or acting unfairly.  If, say..., person "A" put in a $4,000 bid one second after the auction started, and person "B" (using a bot) put in a $3,975 bid one second before the auction ended person "A" would still win the auction even though they hadn't placed a bid for 6 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds because they bid the highest amount.

The problem isn't Ebay. They state their policies and proceedures up front. The problem isn't people bidding at the last second. They have every right to bid up until the end of the auction. The problem is the amount bid.  Sadly, in this case, it just wasn't enough.

I'm not trying to harass you. But, you seem to not understand the Ebay process and feel you have been treated unfairly by Ebay and other bidders.  I'm trying to explain what occurred so you will have a right understanding and then perhaps this incident will not disturb you as much.  Then you can move forward and with greater wisdom procure the Pinto you desire.

You are 100% correct... sniping is just a part of ebay.  I've done it myself, more than once.  It's a risk, but I seldom wind up disappointed!

Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

Srt

I won my first home by bidding an odd amount. Got it by $1.26!
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

71HANTO

I have 700+ transactions on Evil-Bay starting back in 1999. I have learned one thing that I use to my advantage. That is, E-Bay is a game of psychology (and $$$). True, if someone is willing to over pay for something then you let them over pay and you move on to the next chance. There will be another chance. Patience works FOR you. I NEVER start my biding with my maximum bid. IF I bid at the start, I bid the minimum as a place holder only. I also will let an item go to the end with NO bids. People overlook things that are not hot (popular). I recently bought a Burton 2.0L adjustable cam sprocket for $1.98 with FREE shipping. How? I did not bid until the end and it flew under everyone's radar. Now for a technic for pricing. Humans like to bid in 99s like $399 and even numbers like $95. I have been successful by biding not $399, but $400.01. I have won several auctions by ONE CENT! Snipping is an art (all is fair in love, war, and E-Bay). Bandwidth has changed the game. I often wait until the last 5 seconds or less of the auction to show my hand and bid my max. I pre set a bid that I pull the trigger with 5- seconds left. I don't win them all but it has served me well over the years. Relax and know there will likely be even a better one down the road.

71HANTO
"Life is a series of close ones...'til the last one"...cfpjr

TIGGER

In my opinion, you are better off finding a complete cruising wagon rather than making one.  There are a lot of parts specific that are hard to find unless you have a complete car.  Give it time, I believe the correct car for you will come along. 

As for Ebay, I have bought and sold a lot of Pinto parts throughout the years.  I must admit, I would not have been able to find a lot of the parts I needed for my car's without it.  You will win some and you will lose some......

Good luck on your search

79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

Wittsend

"Did you miss the part where I bid almost $1000.00 above what it was at the time I saw it, and then did not lose it till 5 seconds remained in the auction, in my eyes that is dirty pool, never buy from ebay again....." 

No sir, I did not miss that part at all. I completely got it. You found a Pinto you would have like to have had. And, you bid almost $1,000 over the current rate when you placed the bid. So, what did you expect to happen? Have nobody else bid because you wanted the car at that price? Aren't other people allowed to bid up until the close of the auction.  And, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, seconds prior to the close - is before the end of the auction. You did not get beat out buying this Pinto because a "bot" threw in a bid at the last second. You lost because long before, when you upped your last bid, it simply wasn't high enough. Someone else opted to spend more money than you did (or could).

Suppose you had just found this Pinto and the auction was closing in 20 seconds. You log in as fast as you can and set a bid (a good guess, high enough to beat the second highest bidder). You rush and place the bid with 2 seconds to go before the end - and you win.  Would you call your actions "dirty pool?"  I mean the second highest bidder got beat out by you in the final 2 seconds.

What it seems you want is for Ebay to work like a regular auction. Where you always know what the high bid is and for you to have a few seconds to decide if you want to bid beyond that amount. Ebay does not work that way. It never has.  It has a definitive cut-off point (end time) and if you are not the highest bidder at that point you do not win. Straightforwar d and simple. 

Nobody was cheating or acting unfairly.  If, say..., person "A" put in a $4,000 bid one second after the auction started, and person "B" (using a bot) put in a $3,975 bid one second before the auction ended person "A" would still win the auction even though they hadn't placed a bid for 6 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes and 59 seconds because they bid the highest amount.

The problem isn't Ebay. They state their policies and proceedures up front. The problem isn't people bidding at the last second. They have every right to bid up until the end of the auction. The problem is the amount bid.  Sadly, in this case, it just wasn't enough.

I'm not trying to harass you. But, you seem to not understand the Ebay process and feel you have been treated unfairly by Ebay and other bidders.  I'm trying to explain what occurred so you will have a right understanding and then perhaps this incident will not disturb you as much.  Then you can move forward and with greater wisdom procure the Pinto you desire.

Reeves1


Pintosopher

Unfortunately, Life and cosmic forces ,care not what is on our Bucket list. Ebay is a service, and there will be opportunists and scoundrels like every other vein in life. I never bid on anything I just watch , and if it has Buy it Now price that I agree with, I Buy it! I dislike Poker too, so I don't gamble.  Sorry you put your hopes so high , but life demands you wear a cup , or eventually you'll get it in the stones.
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

Gee I'm really sorry I missed that part. But then I was replying to Wittsend's thread not yours.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

qq2ofus

Did you miss the part where I bid almost $1000.00 above what it was at the time I saw it, and then did not lose it till 5 seconds remained in the auction, in my eyes that is dirty pool, never buy from ebay again.....  and their is NO Pinto for sale anywhere in Ohio, craigslist NEVER takes an add down till the user deletes it, most don't bother, if you look carefully at the add, you can find the same vehicle available in Kentucky, and West Virginia, it does not exist, the number applied connects to no-one.........  Perhaps if I had bid $3k instead I would have won it, but then a 1 thousand expense to have it shipped here, then the restore cost.....  right away your looking over 10K  cmon you guys you gotta think about this....never mind
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

sedandelivery

There are programs on line for EBAY that automatically put your bid in the last 5 seconds to assure you will win the item. I don't know what their fee is. I lost out on many items due to the snipers, but I also put in a high bid and the snipers did not match it, too, but then again I overpaid on some things.

dick1172762

I bid on E-gay the same way. I look at it till someone makes the first bid of say $1.00. I then bid some off the wall bid of say $100.00 for a $20.00 item. To be out bid someone else must bid over my $100.00 bid. I've never lost doing it this way. Works for me but you must be willing to take a chance.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

76hotrodpinto

If those panels are the same as the ones on cl here, I can help you swing a deal for them. There are a few wagons, of varying conditions, on the cl here too. I love to kick tires, so if you want a local liaison to go on rust patrol, let me know.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

Sorry to say a "bot" didn't beat you, it was someone willing to spend more money. And, frankly it doesn't even take a bot to do that.

The process is called "Sniping."  The goal of doing this is to not "run up" the bid over the typical 7 day auction.  Bidders will wait until the very end to cram their bid in at the very last second. The hope is that there won't be time for someone to re-think their limit and up the bid.  Bidding services still only bid up to the bidders limit, so it is still the person willing to spend the most that wins.

  Don't think that if you had bid $2925 you would have won the auction. Even if you had that bid in a nanosecond before the auction ended if the other bidder had a $2950 limit he still would have won.

Now, had the (next) highest bidder had a $2825 limit and you had put in a bid of a million dollars on the first day you could have just sat back, did nothing (else) and won the car for $2850.  In my opinion the bots kind of nullify Sniping because instead of running up the bid over the 7 day period, they do it in the last few seconds. BUT, it is still the high bidder (not the fastest bidder) who wins.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I've been "Mr. Runner Up" (second highest bidder) on Ebay at least 50% of the time I bid.  I just have a "that's a good deal" price I'm willing to pay and don't go beyond it. So, I feel your pain.