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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Horsepower curves ???

Started by bombi, January 13, 2014, 03:03:13 PM

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amc49

Good enough, your stuff and do as you will.................not trying to take over anyone's mind.

Nothing wrong at all with trying things new out, but not thinking about how to best make an idea work before doing it fails the majority of them I've found.

Yunick? I would not be humbled, he was a man as are we all. I would ask him questions though. Most of his stuff I agree with but some is hype. In later years he got a little full of himself I feel. I notice that Fiero 'hot turbo engine' he hyped so much did not take over the world..................he was pretty smart though.


slowride

Quote from: amc49 on January 29, 2014, 07:04:01 PM
'Tunnel rams kill low end as their purpose is to create velocity.'

Nay, nay, good brother, that statement in and of itself is totally off the mark. Every low end intake made on the planet goes first thing for velocity and why the ports are so small, it speeds it up.

Velocity being good/bad is relative to other conditions. It is good down low but having that means engine will most likely choke at higher revs. High power engines kiss velocity goodbye at lower rpm to get it at higher rpm. Why again modern EFI engines have multi-port intakes that use one small port for low rpm and a second bigger one adds in for higher power. So you see EFI cures some but not all mixture problems.

Ask Ford right now about all the atomization issues they have on their direct injection (GDI?) engines right now, it's driving them nuts. Backflow is taking mixture and cooking it all over the intake valves to completely clog ports. So much for complete atomization. The engine does not care whether carb or EFI, it still pumps lots of fuel backwards once injected. Every time an intake valve closes everything behind it slams against the shut valve and sprays back into intake. Where lots of the carbon buildup inside intakes comes from, not all of it is from PCV or EGR. It's fuel repeatedly heated to form coke.

First thing tunnel rams do is straighten the entire port. ALL engines increase power with straight ports. Why carbs now replace gas tank on a hot pocket rocket bike. Why Esslinger went to raised ports on the 2.3 aluminum head. Then, tunnel ram usually gets bigger cross-section in port which LOWERS velocity BUT INCREASES flow at HIGH rpm. The plenums are huge also to better share multiple carb bores. That's why they generally zoop on stock street engines.

Take a smaller volume runner one for like sub-300 inch SBC and minimize the plenum and carb bores and you can get an excellent ATX manifold for like 350+ inch motors. I built one once with a friend on a 408 inch SBC and it would pull your face off. Car ran in the nines with a 2 speed Powerglide. Same engine in say a street rod and shorter cam and lights the tires at 2000 rpm with throttle only.


Guess we'll have to agree to disagree as we can get REAL technical about this and the "backflow" you're referring to (reversion) is an affect of runner dynamics,  cam profile, and pulse timing. Smokey Yunick was a master of this and we both would be humbled were he able to join in the conversation.
Bottom line is, I don't have a problem trying something new as it won't be the first time a theory didn't pan out. If I didn't explain exactly what I was doing, it'll just have to wait until I'm done and can post pics..... and results (good or bad).

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: amc49 on January 29, 2014, 07:15:45 PM
74, no need to even make them. Take a sheet of paper and draw the adapter out as a cutaway drawing using the spread of the four runners and the width of two barrel bores and extrapolate that to a one inch and two inch height and look at the space involved there. Then think about fuel curving under all conditions to hit the target four ports.

I don't even have to, I can see the issues in my head having messed with enough intake stuff in the past. You get to where you can see good or bad pretty easy.

The four port EFI bottom port-to-port is about 3 3/16"-3 1/4" wide and a 500 Holley uses 1 11/16" baseplate bores, 350 Holley around 1 9/16" IIRC. Draw a triangle with the car bore at top and bottom being the four port width. Do one one inch high and the other tow inch and compare. Look at adapter pics to get some idea of the angle used there.

FYI, to those in the know EFI is great but any carb setup not running as good as EFI just means the carbs were not right. In my world carbs run just as well as EFI, there is no difference other than carbs fall off from dirt and passage clogging. Many times in drag racing people actually could run faster with carbs than injection but that was using pill type constant flow mechanical which is garbage. True totally electronic injection is wonderful once someone learns how to properly write software. Carbs can still equal it though in the hands of someone competent. Again, the engine is not smart enough to know what's on top of it, only whether it eats or not.
Well, I'll have to do that I guess, I just bought an intake just waiting to get here then I'll have a better perspective of whats going on with this..

Haven't messed with EFI yet, but I have to respectfully disagree on your thought on MFI, and that can be proven any time but just like anything else if you don't have an understanding of how things work you're in the dark, heck I know a few guys that couldn't make a carb work if they're life depended on it, lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

FYI Weiand never made a tunnel ram for AMC, it was Edelbrock UR-18 with a Weiand top. We used the original UR-18 top, it came with Dominator mounting, you had to improvise to put regular base Holleys on one and why the Weiand commonly used. We ran Weiand on the Boss 302 though, we modded it to remove some plenum and used 2X700 DP Holleys on it. The 700s came off one of our AMXs, we had just purchased one of the first pairs of Dominators from Bill Heilscher, who had retired to run Green Valley Race City. He had an entire room under the timing tower devoted to all his old super and pro stock cars. The carbs came off one of the 454 pro Camaros.

He was up in the tower one night watching cars run  and saw our AMX and thought it ran really well and came out into the pits to talk to us. Really nice guy. When the hood was pulled and he saw the AMC engine his jaw about hit the ground, he though for sure it was a 454 BBC. They sounded very similar once you put Dominators on a healthy 395 inch AMC. Many others thought the same thing, we were often rumored to have like a 482 inch or other big Chevy motor in there, it was pretty funny.

amc49

74, no need to even make them. Take a sheet of paper and draw the adapter out as a cutaway drawing using the spread of the four runners and the width of two barrel bores and extrapolate that to a one inch and two inch height and look at the space involved there. Then think about fuel curving under all conditions to hit the target four ports.

I don't even have to, I can see the issues in my head having messed with enough intake stuff in the past. You get to where you can see good or bad pretty easy.

The four port EFI bottom port-to-port is about 3 3/16"-3 1/4" wide and a 500 Holley uses 1 11/16" baseplate bores, 350 Holley around 1 9/16" IIRC. Draw a triangle with the car bore at top and bottom being the four port width. Do one one inch high and the other tow inch and compare. Look at adapter pics to get some idea of the angle used there.

FYI, to those in the know EFI is great but any carb setup not running as good as EFI just means the carbs were not right. In my world carbs run just as well as EFI, there is no difference other than carbs fall off from dirt and passage clogging. Many times in drag racing people actually could run faster with carbs than injection but that was using pill type constant flow mechanical which is garbage. True totally electronic injection is wonderful once someone learns how to properly write software. Carbs can still equal it though in the hands of someone competent. Again, the engine is not smart enough to know what's on top of it, only whether it eats or not.

amc49

'Tunnel rams kill low end as their purpose is to create velocity.'

Nay, nay, good brother, that statement in and of itself is totally off the mark. Every low end intake made on the planet goes first thing for velocity and why the ports are so small, it speeds it up.

Velocity being good/bad is relative to other conditions. It is good down low but having that means engine will most likely choke at higher revs. High power engines kiss velocity goodbye at lower rpm to get it at higher rpm. Why again modern EFI engines have multi-port intakes that use one small port for low rpm and a second bigger one adds in for higher power. So you see EFI cures some but not all mixture problems.

Ask Ford right now about all the atomization issues they have on their direct injection (GDI?) engines right now, it's driving them nuts. Backflow is taking mixture and cooking it all over the intake valves to completely clog ports. So much for complete atomization. The engine does not care whether carb or EFI, it still pumps lots of fuel backwards once injected. Every time an intake valve closes everything behind it slams against the shut valve and sprays back into intake. Where lots of the carbon buildup inside intakes comes from, not all of it is from PCV or EGR. It's fuel repeatedly heated to form coke.

First thing tunnel rams do is straighten the entire port. ALL engines increase power with straight ports. Why carbs now replace gas tank on a hot pocket rocket bike. Why Esslinger went to raised ports on the 2.3 aluminum head. Then, tunnel ram usually gets bigger cross-section in port which LOWERS velocity BUT INCREASES flow at HIGH rpm. The plenums are huge also to better share multiple carb bores. That's why they generally zoop on stock street engines.

Take a smaller volume runner one for like sub-300 inch SBC and minimize the plenum and carb bores and you can get an excellent ATX manifold for like 350+ inch motors. I built one once with a friend on a 408 inch SBC and it would pull your face off. Car ran in the nines with a 2 speed Powerglide. Same engine in say a street rod and shorter cam and lights the tires at 2000 rpm with throttle only.


slowride

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on January 28, 2014, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: amc49 on January 28, 2014, 07:55:59 PM
Tunnel rams can easily be made to work at low rpm, they are in effect on almost every EFI car on the planet now. What's the difference? Fuel distribution, which can be fixed in other ways. I built tunnel ram cars with carbs that would pull stumps out at 2000 rpm. You make the plenum area and runners smaller is all.

Tunnel rams kill low end as their purpose is to create velocity. Whole different dynamic between EFI (most likely port injection) and carbureted. You don't have the atomization issue with EFI that you do with a tunnel ram.

74 PintoWagon

Interesting, the identical adapter in a 1" will cause that much difference?, my curiosity is getting the best of me now, I'm gonna have to make a couple of adapters and do some playing around I guess, lol..

I had one of those crossrams before, just got tired of no bottom end on the street and got rid of it, they are cool looking and drew attention though..... That Weiand is a good tunnelram though, I ran one with 660's on a 468 and it pulled hard, not as hard as my injectors though, lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49


amc49

The one inch spacer on an unchanged manifold bottom will restrict free movement of mixture. You're asking a fast moving gas to go somewhat sideways with a partial open butterfly and straight down if they are wide open, to turn sideways and then turn and go down again with no room for curving, a sure power killer if there ever was one. With an inline Motorcraft carb at partial throttle part of the mix comes out at an angle and then must reverse almost 180 degrees to go the other way. The other cylinders on that side of engine may want food too you know...............

When you force a fluid to do that it drags more of itself along at slower speed as well as holding it back, with more working space some can disperse to allow for quicker moving.

Why you could often pick up 20 hp. on a V-8 by sticking a spacer under the carb, the mix then had some room to spread out and turn.

I would not totally leave manifold alone, rather I would radius the port entries there. The sharp corner is a power killer as well.

This all may be a moot point. I do not have a car fitted up like this and hood clearance problems may prevent it. I'm just saying that in a perfect world..................and we all know there is no such thing.

FYI, Smokey Yunick once designed a single 4 bbl. crossram for roadracing SBC, it sported an unusual feature. It had a big dead flat right directly under the carb, fuel flowed straight out of the bottom of carb and struck that flat and intended to then smoothly splay out to flow into two trenches on the sides, each one feeding four runners that then ran back across top of engine to the opposite side head. At first glance seemed not too hard until he realized how the flat had to be designed at an exact height that was super critical, even throwing say a carb spacer under the carb could cost 25 hp. quicker than spit. The manifold came with specific instructions to NOT CHANGE THAT DISTANCE or kiss the power goodbye. He said as little as 1/16" difference could lose power and they worried how accurate the casting of it for production would be. Edelbrock Smoke Ram, I believe.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: amc49 on January 28, 2014, 07:55:59 PMBuy the Racer Walsh 2 inch thick adapter, that does that and you don't screw with messing up the 1-4 entries,
So, I take it you use this adapter and leave the intake as it is, right?, what if you used a 1" instead wouldn't it work just as good, I would think the only difference would be a little more bottom end, or am I seeing this wrong????..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

'To be a bit more specific. I want to create a plenum and "drop the floor" to effectively RAISE (vertically) the flow.'

Buy the Racer Walsh 2 inch thick adapter, that does that and you don't screw with messing up the 1-4 entries, which is what you will be doing by cutting into them at the top to remove the turn. It is right at the top and any opening up will do that. Any more work to finish at the center of the X in the middle will only make it even worse as you get closer to flat. You need that ROUND curve to make the turn.  Chop parts of it up and turbulence all over the place right at runner tops, a particularly bad area to do that. The commonly used one inch one is way too low in my opinion and why they cut deeper into the manifold trying to relieve that issue. They lose at the 1-4 when doing that, but commercially they make money. By selling a cheaper to make adapter at almost same price as the thicker one, and the look pretty intake port work at $500 to draw in the suckers. BTDT.

Of course the dance again around the hood clearance issue.................

With the carb right at the commercially available adapters' location you will ALWAYS have some sort of turbulence issue, there is no one inch straight below the throttle plates to allow mix to get straight to then turn lower to go its' 4 separate ways. The throttle blade angle is going to mess up everything in there until it is straight vertical. On a Weber mounted in conventional location fully one half of wide open mixture is shielded from the outer lying areas by the wide open throttle plates. Why the two inch spacer, to get vertically up some to resolve some of that. You WANT some void in there to allow for good cross mixing at bastard butterfly angles as well as to allow for some splay out further room to reach areas the carb bores are not directly over. Two inch looks right to my eye without going overboard in excessive 'tunnel ram' fashion. I wouldn't hesitate to put that on an ATX car. Maybe advance the cam a bit if uncomfortable about it.

Tunnel rams can easily be made to work at low rpm, they are in effect on almost every EFI car on the planet now. What's the difference? Fuel distribution, which can be fixed in other ways. I built tunnel ram cars with carbs that would pull stumps out at 2000 rpm. You make the plenum area and runners smaller is all.

To Dick, yeah, I know about F-104 leading edges, and was thinking some SA like you would probably bring something like that up............LOL..........Or course we all know what the mission of the F-104 turned out to inevitably be once everybody got over all the gloss and glitter right? Certainly no stars shot down there for sure.


slowride

To be a bit more specific. I want to create a plenum and "drop the floor" to effectively RAISE (vertically) the flow. There is turbulence created when air/fuel tries to flow horizontally out of the venturis. Low pressure is created on the back side of the inside edge that separates fuel from the mixture. Would I like to have 4 cylinders to smooth the intake pulses at low rpm? Yes, but the adaptors I've seen don't create an effective plenum, just a void that still doesn't smooth the flow horizontally from runner to runner. The commercial modifications I've seen create a "tunnel ram" which is fine for mid to hi rpm, but I'm using this car on the street and am targeting more low to mid torque.
All I'll be doing to the engine side roof of the 2/3 runners is smoothing as much as I can without moving that roof closer to the throttle blades. The divider between 2/3 and 1/4 will be milled down a bit creating a floor and small plenum. I'll be making an carb adapter from  1/2" plate and copying the plenum shape extending the plenum up as well.
I may pick up one of the available adaptors to try out before I really get into the manifold. The Weber 38 should work best in this car because it's an auto and I'd like to keep the kick down. The throttle shafts to the rear should be easier to adapt that the Autolite with the throttle shaft out the side. If nothing else, everyone will know what NOT to do when I get done. Of course there were people that didn't believe the plenum I made for the 32/36 would do anything either.....

dick1172762

Guess what? The leading edge of the F104 was so sharp, we had to put covers on the edge as soon as the engine was shut down to keep it sharp and to keep from getting cut by it. But I also know that an airfoil has a radius on 99.9% of all other airplanes. The 104 was a rocket with a man up front, but man they sure were pretty and oh so fast.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

I don't like dead sharp knife-edging, preferring to roll the edge just a little bit. Razor sharp can cause F/A separation. Think airplane wing airfoil leading edge. I don't like the LOWERED plenum opening-up but it may well be necessary to clear the hood. Plenum is plenum either high or low but I'd like to keep that 1-4 turn at the top if I could. They remove some of the passage there. I'd like to keep the round shape at the very top to help make the turn easier.

dick1172762

So I take it, you like the bo-port porting on their web site. I've got about 10 pictures of 10 different EFI intakes and they all look about the same except about half have knife edges at the entry point of the 4 runners. You don't like that do you? What's your tech on this? A radius there would be easyer than a knife edge to port. I've seen a couple for sale where they split the intake into 2&2. Maybe that's why they were for sale.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

I seriously do not know  if I would open that plenum up like that. The 1-4 runners begin to curve hard sideways right at the 'flat' there and any plenum opening is going to come much closer to making in  effect a 'flat' that F/A mixture must hit before somehow turning sideways there. I would much prefer to retain the turn right at the top of 1-4 and then extend any plenum UPWARDS even though hood clearance is iffy. Common adapters made to mount holley 2 bbl. type base carbs on these are either one inch thick or two, I'm thinking two is better to help make the curve there. Just like on X type manifold on a V-8. You need smooth turning room or just throwing away power there. 2-3 are alright since the vertical run is longer before runner curves sideways. Look at a couple of race manifolds ported out and see that they think same thing, they do not lower the opening much maybe to use the one inch manifold and save the hood clearance. They also open up to share all four cylinders, not in pairs. You have to run bigger carb when you separate in two parts, a plenum running to join all four allows for same power with less carb and then car performs better at low rpm too. Dual plane manifolds are to induce 180 degree intake periods on V-8s, 4 cylinders already do that with a fully open plenum. When you split a 4 cylinder intake then you go to 360 periods and then the air gets less active and response drops off.

If I could, I would be using two inch there to allow acceptable vertical spacing to mix easily in the plenum and no lowering of openings at all, merely radius the tops really good. The radius has added benefit of removing more dead flat that can hold fuel fallout, with radius the fuel will run readily into a cylinder rather than stack up in plenum. The two inch adapter comes closer to having the proper plenum area needed there and the expansion from two openings to four is smoother. The interchange and crossflow should be much better.

The 2100 Motorcraft carb still feeds from one side even if the butterflies open at the same time, until the throttles are wide open the angle of them will always prejudice flow to one side front or rear, why you want to lift the carb up again, to allow for more cross-mixing there. Meaning the flow is still 'in shear' even with plenum opened up. Only at WFO is it not. Note the examples given lower, they remove almost all flat space there, the bigger each opening is the more they tend to run closer to equal since the mouths all tend to zoop up any runoff there. The bigger openings also tend to blur unequal throttle blade angles as well.

If carb is jetted right it does not matter if one barrel is bigger than the other provided again carb is high enough up to allow good cross-mixing.

http://www.bo-port.com/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=10

http://www.racerwalsh.zoovy.com/product/RWA1231C/manifold-efi-intake-the-works.html

Note they open up all FOUR to each other, they may be making room for the one inch adapter there to keep carb lower to clear hood.

dick1172762

Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

CRUISEWAGON77

Are there better intake/carb setups to look at for a lightly modified 2.3 (big valves, light port work, mild cam, .30 over bore)?
Bought brand new by my Dad, 36yr OLD STOCK WAGON.  CAME AS YOU SEE IT, soon to have some bolt on goodies.

slowride

No 4 barrels on turbos. Though it LOOKS like a 4 barrel pad, an upper intake bolts to this flange. The issue I have with "knifeblading" or adapters (or both) is you are not addressing the biggest issue. The A/F mixture is still in shear trying to go sideways into a runner. What I'm going to try is machining plenums that will DROP the floor and smooth the transition from venturi to the runner. The added benefit is rather than the carb seeing individual vacuum signals creating a "pulse", the plenum should combine the pulses making a smoother vacuum signal, and (hopefully) smoother idle.

CRUISEWAGON77

What year do the four barrel intakes come on turbo coupes?
Bought brand new by my Dad, 36yr OLD STOCK WAGON.  CAME AS YOU SEE IT, soon to have some bolt on goodies.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: dick1172762 on January 25, 2014, 05:16:41 PM
  Art! They'll only work on an EFI intake if you make / buy an adapter. Just like a Holley (they have the same bolt pattern) Go for it. Its all bolt on. Even a Vega owner could do it, well maybe.
Yep, think I'll go that route be an easy deal, ain't nothing to make an adapter... A Vega owner, now that funny, lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on January 25, 2014, 12:14:07 PM
Thanks Dick, thought those were the ones, I've rebuilt a ton of those, heck you can do them in your sleep, LOL, In fact I may still have a couple of them in the junk pile I'll have to look, if they work on the EFI intake that'll be an easy setup.
Art! They'll only work on an EFI intake if you make / buy an adapter. Just like a Holley (they have the same bolt pattern) Go for it. Its all bolt on. Even a Vega owner could do it, well maybe.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

74 PintoWagon

Thanks Dick, thought those were the ones, I've rebuilt a ton of those, heck you can do them in your sleep, LOL, In fact I may still have a couple of them in the junk pile I'll have to look, if they work on the EFI intake that'll be an easy setup.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

slowride

That carb can work too. All that's needed carb-wise is a 2 barrel synchronous rather than progressive (or secondary). The modification to the manifold won't work with a progressive.

dick1172762

ART! That's them. The people on the mini-stock web site (4m.net) say you can put one together in the dark. Much stuff on you-tube about the carbs. Mikes carbs is very good. He's been building them for 45 years. Looks like the cheap way to go. They were on Ford pick up till they went to fuel injection. Thanks for the web site.~~~Dick
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

74 PintoWagon

Hey Dick, are these the ones you're talking about??, they're about as simple as they can get..
http://www.carburetion.com/ford2v.htm
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

Do like I did. Get a 1.08 to a 1.21 Motorcraft / Autolite two barrel carb. Dirt cheap even if you buy a new one. Got mine for $25.00. The new ones are 1/2 the price of a 38/38. The 1.21 is a 351 CFM and the 1.08 is 280 CFM. On the mini stock web site (4m.net) the racer like them better than the Holley's. Every part for them is still for sale, and there is several sites on you-tube on how to rebuild the carbs. Look at  Mikes Carburetor-Parts.com to see how to's and parts for sale. The carbs also use Holley power valves. They also are not bothered by 4 cylinder vibration like a Holley
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

slowride

The gray areas are where the 4 holes will be milled to create 2 planes. The black circles are where the venturis of the 38/38 will be. 
I just got a stock turbo intake off a XR4TI for $38 shipped, so now to find a deal no a Weber.....