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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

2.3 Weak/No Spark While Cranking When Damp Outside

Started by Chopchop, January 13, 2014, 08:16:13 AM

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74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Chopchop on April 05, 2014, 04:56:53 AMWhen you say, "you can loosen the cover and simply adjust by rolling the cover one way or the other..."
What cover? 

The round cover on the side, loosen the three screws on the clamp and rotate the cover accordingly, the colder the weather the tighter it needs to be but without a coke pull off you need a slight gap or it will flood when it starts. A choke pull off operates on vacuum as soon as the motor starts the vacuum pulls the choke open a crack to let air in.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Chopchop

DOH!   I forgot to unplug the vacuum advance!!  Thank you for reminding me.  I'll try again on Sunday.

The choke does close all the way when I press the gas pedal.  It SLAMS shut and is completely shut.

When you say, "you can loosen the cover and simply adjust by rolling the cover one way or the other..."
What cover? 
I'll take more pictures of the carb tomorrow and post. 

I'll get some new wires!!   It seems that that coil wired only arcs when the clutch cable is close to it but still....probably not good!

Thanks a million for your help with this, I went out yesterday and when it wouldn't start again, I swore that if somebody came buy and said, "Hey, you want to sell that car?"   That I'd PUSH it into their driveway.  I love the thing but when it won't start like this, I get nuts.
Other than the no start in wet weather, this car is unbelievably good to me. 

Thanks again,

Dave

amc49

Too far advanced but vacuum advance to distributor must be unplugged while checking timing. If not done then could explain why so far up.

Been awhile since I played with these but the choke may not be closed all the way at stone cold engine before starting, often they have a 'qualification setting' meaning when you go and hit the accelerator pedal once to set the choke plate it closes but not quite fully shut, there is a small aircrack set there on purpose. Some cars require that, if no air at all with choke shut the engine instantly floods plugs and no start. Need to look up your year and see if that carb needs to be cracked open at choke a bit. In fact you can loosen the cover and simply adjust by rolling the cover one way or the other to get that dead cold setting cracked open a bit. Then lock cover back down. Try different air gaps at the choke plate and see if your starting gets any better. Setting the plate has nothing to do with the plate opening fully as motor gets hot, it will still do it.

You got bad plug wires there, could be the problem right there................

74 PintoWagon

What is your total advance that's what's critical..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Chopchop

I originally changed ignition modules because I had an extra one on the shelf in the barn. 
Then a Ford 2.3 Turbo guy I know said, "I'll tell you right now that your problem is that ignition module."
So I bought a new one and tried that.   (by now we're on module #3).
A couple of weeks later when I got the '76 Pinto engine, I bought all new stuff for that....coil, ignition module, cap, rotor, etc...
I figured that I'd try the other new ignition module on the car (#4 now).
No ignition module gives me any different result than any other ignition module.

Since my last post, I've done nothing.
I got hurt at work and everybody's been on my back to do NOTHING that doesn't have to be done.

However....


I drove the car on Sunday and it started and ran perfectly.  It's now 49 degrees outside and has been raining for 2 days.  I figured that this was the perfect time to see if the car would start. 
Of course, it would not.

I pressed the gas pedal once (all the way to the floor) and let my foot completely off.  I cranked it for 30 seconds or so and it turned over like nobody's business but wouldn't start.   I turned the key off and waited 30 seconds then without pressing the gas, I tried again and got the same result.

I pulled the top of the air cleaner off and the choke was closed.  I stuck a screwdriver down the carb and the car started right up.
When I pulled the screwdriver out, the choke did not close all the way anymore but the engine idled fine.

I turned the key off and tried again.  The choke slams shut as soon as I crank the key.  It does not open until the car starts.
Once the car starts, the choke opens up, everything is ducky and the car idles beautifully again.


I decided to check the timing.  So I made a white mark on the crankshaft pulley (at zero).

Here's a picture:



Here's where the timing mark is at idle (less than 1000 rpm).

(Also, you'll see the interesting spark issue at the end of the recording.)

http://youtu.be/2pAC3uF0cEQ


Does that timing look correct to you?  I thought it was supposed to be something like 6 or 7 degrees?

Dave

amc49

Nothing personal but you're kinda lost.

'I'm on new ignition module #2 and have tried 2 other used modules.'

You've already tested the module in effect, the odds of 4 being bad are astronomical.

'The choke is definitely working...............'

No mention of it properly PULLING OFF. If you only mean it's closing, the possible missing wire pulls it back open correctly and possibly your smelling gas issue. The wire may lead to the element that pulls the choke OFF. So, your comment as quoted is worthless. As perfectly described by this...........

'It started without issue and ran for 3 or 4 minutes.
I turned it off and tried to start it again and it wouldn't fire.'

The choke shutting but not opening properly on time could easily do that. Perfect description of that effect.

And not touching the plugs but chasing module and other much more expensive things? You're going backwards there.

Any plug will work until you sort the issue out; virtually all NEW plug performance is the same at first. You can get platinum but wasting money on double platinum. Old school non-plats will work fine they just don't retain gap as long as plats do. Double plats are for waste spark ignitions, these do not have them. I always prefer to use same maker of plug that factory engine came with, the heat ranges will always be more accurate that way. Despite all the millions of comments that say otherwise I've never seen any plug last longer than any other if they were same basic construction. I use AC plugs in GM cars, Champion in Mopar, NGK in Japanese, and Autolite or Motorcraft in Ford. They all last forever if rest of engine is maintained, so many people blame plug when there is no difference. Pretty funny in my view. A plug is a plug.




74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Chopchop

Thanks for the replies.

I'm on new ignition module #2 and have tried 2 other used modules.  I can not detect any difference in the way the engine runs when I change modules.

I don't know where to bring the ignition module to check it.  Who checks modules?

The choke is definitely working and I believe that wire that's lying there is for the original temperature gauge.  I installed a SunPro temperature gauge and I ran new wires when I did that.  The SunPro gauge lets me monitor the temperature in detail (not just "Hot" or "Cold" or somewhere in between....)

I've never touched the spark plugs.
When the weather warms up a bit (still a "Polar Vortex" thing going on here), I'll verify the timing and pull the plugs.
Do you have a recommendation for spark plugs?  I don't know if these engines are temperamental with spark plugs....do they like a specific plug or will any new plug be okay?

Thanks again, stay warm!

Dave

amc49

Not out of the realm of possibility.............................they don't go bad that often but when they do the effects can be mystifying as no two ever seem to fail with same symptoms.

pintoguy76

Take the ignition module and have it tested. It sounds bad to me, even tho you said it was new. When i first got my 76 it would not start. It would try to start as I let off the key, but would not fire while cranking. It was the control module....
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

amc49

Smelling gas too quick has too much choke issue all over it if the ignition is hot.

You either know the timing is correct for a fact or you are wasting your time and battery............

If the loose wire goes to choke power then choke not pulling off and a problem there, it has electric pulloff, you STILL need to research and cure that wire.

If plugs are old could just be that......................

Chopchop

Hi Guys,


I hope everybody's been keeping warm!

It was 36* last night and had been raining all day so I figured it would be a good time to see if the car would start.
It started without issue and ran for 3 or 4 minutes.
I turned it off and tried to start it again and it wouldn't fire.

It cranked without issue and I could smell a lot of gas and a couple of times, it almost fired when I let go of the key but I couldn't get it started.
Eventually I drained the battery so I put a trickle charger on it and tried again this morning (it's dry and windy today, 35*).  It fired right up and ran fine.

So I obviously don't have the wet-weather starting issue fixed yet.

It starts and runs like a bear every time - unless the engine is cold and it's wet out.

A few times when I let off the ignition switch, it almost started....maybe there's an issue with the timing? 


Dave

amc49

I personally do not.......................it's just gotta be lower than 12................as the ballast resistor in the harness heats up the resistance changes some anyway and calculated to do so. A temperature controller for the coil.

They started out when the switch was made from 6 volt to 12 volt coils way back in the day to use 6 volt coil on 12 volt system. Something about wanting to keep existing coil makers from having to make major changes in equipment. The idea of the starting bypass also fit right in with that and all car makers adopted the idea. Different makers used slightly different resistor values though, doing that can move voltage around a bit. Some used like 1.80 ohm or .5 ohm or so and some like GM and Ford used 1.35 ohm.

Chopchop

That makes good sense - I installed a SunPro temperature gauge and SunPro temperature sending unit which I ran my own wire to so I may have just disconnected the factory wire and forgot about it!   (I forget a lot these days... :-[  )

Do you guys think that 10V + at the coil is going to be a problem down the line?

amc49

Yep, I'd be looking down there in the dark cubby hole. 'Course, if one of those you will not have them working correctly and the giveaway. Idiot light would not be working on pressure switch or temp gauge not working on the sensor for it. Again, if the thing goes to stator for power to choke, you would have no power to the choke coil. Does it?

How many wires go to PLUS side of coil?

jtowndown

That loose wire looks like it goes to the coolant temp sensor or oil pressure switch. I had my whole wiring harness out of my car when i Couldn't find the short to ground on my car. The oil pressure switch and coolant temp sender are on the driver side toward the rear of the engine, about the same height as the intake manifold. The coolant temp sender is about 8 inches below the oil pressure switch. My car is a 79 mercury bobcat

RSM


Chopchop

Well, here are today's findings.

For some reason, I now have 9.9 Volts at the battery side of the coil when idling.  When I rev it, it goes up past 10V.

I attached a wire from the "I" terminal and ran it to the battery side of the coil.  When I cranked the engine with the key, I got 12 + Volts at the coil for a very brief second until the engine fired up (it starts very quickly when it's not wet out).

At idle, the voltage at the coil is still just under 10 V.  When I rev, it goes up into the 10's.  I hope that's not too much?

I also checked that loose wire a bunch of times - it has no voltage at any time.  I elected to just leave it where it was.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dave


amc49

You can color code the loose wire by stripping the plastic back a bit and if in the big city go to public library and commonly in reference section you can find factory service and wiring manuals that are very expensive to us normal folk. I've used that resource in Dallas here more than once. Like as not you'll find wiring diagram for normal 'Bird to work on that specialty one as long as you reference the correct year/type motor.

If you have a wire plugged into choke then see if it matches the loose plug in's color code. Choke should have say 6 volts at the plug-in when engine is running, does it? Maybe loose lead goes to alt stator.......................don't plug it in there without good reason though.

amc49

'You can easily run your own bypass by picking large enough wire and simply run it from the solenoid 'I' post to + side of coil while leaving all other wires on coil or solenoid in same place.'

And what Ford does. Forget wiring off battery, you have exact same volts at solenoid if cables and connections are good and clean.

Running 9 volts backwards into the solenoid does nothing since once the forward circuit opens (contacts snap back apart) the post on solenoid is as far as the power can go, open circuit there, or as RSM states. Again, how factory Fords are wired. AMCs were exactly the same.

'Should I put the 12v to the coil, start the car, then take the 12V wire off the coil?
Would this give me a stronger spark while the engine is cranking?'

No, do as first sentence says and you don't have to, solenoid then does it for you. Yes, you have stronger spark, but cannot do it all the time, coil or points will overheat and burn up. For the short period it takes to start car only. ALL 12 volt car old school coils are 6 volt ones modified to take slightly more power, they toast if you give them 12 volts all the time, why they don't have it. The extra wiring off solenoid specifically to give a starting ignition 'booster'.


RSM

On the solenoid, the "I" terminal is a normally open switch. Internally it closes when the ignition switch is turned to the start position and the starter cranks. You then get voltage at that terminal. If you had a wire going from the + of the coil back to that, no power will run "backwards", once the ignition switch is released the switch becomes open again. If you had a wiring diagram of the vehicle you could figure out what it goes to. I think we're all curious now.

Chopchop

That's a really good point.
If that loose wire did lead to the coil, then there would be about 9 volts at the wire when the car's running.

That's another confusing thing :

If there's supposed to be a wire from the "I" terminal to the coil and that "I" terminal gives a shot of 12 volts to the coil when cranking, when the car is running, the coil (which already has 8.9 volts) would send that 8.9 volts BACK to the "I" terminal.
I wonder if that would screw something up at the solenoid?

For me to put 12 V to the coil, do I just run a jumper wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the side of the coil that has 8.9 volts when running?

Should I put the 12v to the coil, start the car, then take the 12V wire off the coil?
Would this give me a stronger spark while the engine is cranking?

amc49

If it goes to coil you will find the opposite end on the + side of coil. Wire color should be the same IIRC. If other end was at coil + you'd have volts in it at running engine. Could be some temp or emission switch. The double wire on one side is nothing and common, I've never looked it up to see what it does. If enough amp through wire, that second one could be a bypass to coil but better to use the provided one as more volt available there at the crucial voltage sucking time of cranking starter.

Regardless, I would listen to others and not simply assume that is the bypass wire to coil. Could burn something up. You can easily run your own bypass by picking large enough wire and simply run it from the solenoid 'I' post to + of coil while leaving all other wires on coil in same place.

Some solenoids (AMC at least) were funky and did not ground through the case as the pic says, rather a separate wire off BACK of solenoid to ground through another switch somewhere. Solenoid works exactly the same other than how it grounds though.

Solenoids as they get older erode the main big contacts inside from all the arcing going on. After a point the contacts have eroded to where not as much contact area and volts then begin to drop off. Solution is new solenoid.................

Chopchop

I believe the wire will easily reach.

The automatic choke works very well so I don't think the wire goes there but I will dig in tomorrow and see if the wire reaches anywhere else.

I never got any voltage through the wire when I was checking yesterday and I had my neighbor use the key to crank the car today - that's how I was able to check the second terminal on the solenoid ; As it was cranking, the test light did come on nice and bright.

The loose wire showed no voltage while the engine was running or when the engine was off.

At no time have I seen voltage through the loose wire.
I'll check tomorrow for other places it might go to.

Thank you.

74 PintoWagon

Could peel that tape back a bit and see what color the wire is and maybe trace it on a diagram, could for a sending unit or something????..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

RSM

I would try routing the wire to the solenoid and see if it reaches. If it doesn't then you know it doesn't belong there.The problem with shooting 12 volts into that wire is you could burn something out not knowing what it's for. You don't have a sending unit anywhere close to that wire that doesn't have anything connected to it do you? Reading your post again I noticed you said there are a lot of loose wires hanging around. Is there an electric choke and does it have anything connected to it? If not that wire might be for the choke. You said there is no power coming from the wire, start the engine and see if you get any voltage from it.

Chopchop

Ah!  It certainly does - thank you.  I always wondered what that other terminal was for!

The '81 fired right up this morning (29 degrees outside).

Here are some pictures I just took of that engine :



Here's that wire I mentioned earlier :


And here's another angle (kind of hard to see in there):



I checked with a test light and that second terminal does light up when the ignition is cranking.
That loose wire has no voltage coming from it.  I wish I could trace it but that would require cutting into the loom and I'd like to stay away from that if possible. 

What do you fellas think of me putting 12 volts to the wire and seeing if there's a change at the coil?


Thanks again!
Dave

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Chopchop

DING DING DING!!   ;D

No sir, I do NOT have two small wires coming off the solenoid.  {Kinda..}

I have two white/beige colored wires coming off the SAME terminal of the solenoid - they go into a wiring loom.  That's the terminal I attach the remote start to.
The other wire from the remote start goes directly to the positive cable of the battery.  When I hit the button, the engine cranks over like nobody's business.

That other small terminal on the solenoid has nothing going to it but a long time ago I noticed a single, unconnected wire sitting under the carb.  I'll bet it would reach that other terminal....
I don't know where that wire goes - I assumed it had something to do with the choke or something on the carb --- there are a LOT of unconnected wires on this car!

Do you think I should stick that single wire on the solenoid and see what happens?

I'll take a picture today and post it so you can see.  Thank you for this value tidbit of information!!

amc49

Remote connects same way key on as not. I'd be looking at your remote switch or solenoid. Do you have TWO small wires coming off solenoid? One off each of two smaller terminals not counting the main battery ones. One you connect to with remote, that one powers the solenoid on, if remote not passing enough power because of internal resistance then solenoid may not be fully powered to carry 100% power ergo no spark. No burglar or alarm wiring on it is there?

Solenoid gets power through one small wire, the main contacts close to power starter through the big terminals, at same time the other smaller wire is powered up too to provide straight 12 volts to coil for starting only, it disconnects just like starter as soon as solenoid goes off. 12 volts at the coil starting only helps make up for the extra load of the starter dragging power down. Then it goes back to your 9 volts or so.

Check for solenoid grounded well to mounting point if that type, some have a third small wire that grounds elsewhere rather than through the solenoid case. When remote starting you ground that wire.

Your issue just described seems to point at the remote switch not passing full power. How many wires on solenoid not counting the two big ones? Look at the snap on clip interface with the remote, commonly too small to carry good power. Cheap $10 battery cables have the same problem, often they will not start a car even when new. Cable big enough but not enough 'bite' at the clamp-on to carry power.