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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Old Faithful’s (late) 150k mile maintenance - valve seals 'n' more!

Started by 78txpony, May 04, 2010, 10:06:06 AM

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78txpony

Quote from: Srt on May 19, 2010, 05:56:09 PM
i was under the impression that they all ran off 'ported' vacuum. (off the carb) and not manifold vacuum. 
That is how I thought the factories did it, also. 
Maybe the factory that did mine screwed it up!  The original hoses and routings are still in place.  Noone has ever messed with the hoses. 
I made a vac diagram and will post it when i can redo it and make it readable enough...
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

dave1987

THat's my guess. I'm going to try playing with mine on Friday, I'll let yall know what i find out.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Srt

i was under the impression that they all ran off 'ported' vacuum. (off the carb) and not manifold vacuum. 

if, when you run it off ported vacuum it runs bad, it may because you have all the carb adjustments and timing set for when it was connected to manifold vacuum.

the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

78txpony

Well the factory hooked the disty to the front manifold vacuum fitting, along with some other vacuum circuits. 
At idle, the disty hose has 15" and it increases with steady opening throttle. 
The rear manifold port gave be 19".
However, 15" at the disty seems to be enough to give me full vacuum advance. 
The disty is a 4 month old reman unit - unsure of its quality.

On the 5200 carb mixture screw, which way do you turn it for richer and which way for leaner??  I cannot remember if that is an air bleed or an actual fuel port...

Thanks!
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

dave1987

I'm running my distributor off the main vacuum line. I can't figure out which port on the carb is for the distributor. I've tried one that I thought it was but didn't get much vacuum and the motor seemed to run worse. :(
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

78txpony

The disty hose is connected to wherever the factory decided...  :P

All the hoses and vac switches, etc, are original, so it is possible something is going on there that shouln't be. 
I will connect the vac gauge to it and see what happens. I am thinking it was maxed out at idle. 

On the way to work, the car DOES run better and stronger. 
Upon takeoff, the clutch engagement is firm and the engine 'grabs' me.  I can easily idle in first and second without engine lugging. 
This is much more welcomed than the mushy, juddery, engine-bogging starts that I was so used to. 

Idle was crappy though - i will adjust that today and keep tuning it. 

I wish I can loose that annoying clutch bearing squall!!  :mad:  The WD40 treatment did not help... 
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

71pintoracer

Quote from: 78txpony on May 16, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
I prolly read the marks wrong...  ::)   I had doubts when i wrote last time - I will check it tomorrow. 
Now you are saying 36* tops at idle with vacuum hooked up, right? Ot at different RPMS, too...  ???
36* total with all the advance in, say at 3000 rpm. Been a long time since I had a car w/ vacuum advance but it seems like you are getting a lot of advance at idle. Are you sure your vac hose is hooked to the carb or are you getting full vacuum all the time? When you hook your vacuum gauge to the dist hose you should have low vacuum until you rev the engine. I run a Mallory Unilite and the base timing stays at 10* at idle and when I rev the engine the advance starts changing the timing as the revs go up.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

dave1987

Glad to help! :D

1100 is a bit high, I can't stand it on my 78's 2.3. Adds a constant low tone hum in the car while sitting inside and it drives me nuts! Mine fluctuates a bit between 17 and 20 when down to 750 rpm at idle, but I like to run mine around 800 - 825. No hum, still have power at take off, and it runs great overall!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

78txpony

Quote from: dave1987 on May 17, 2010, 08:22:08 PM
Have you connected a vacuum gauge to the motor/intake yet? What's it read at idle?

A vacuum gauge can tell you a lot about a motor's condition.
A vacuum gauge?????  What a marvelous idea!!  I forgot I even had one of those things!   :hypno:
Okay, I hooked it up to a capped port in the back intake. 
During its lumpy 750rpm idle, it rapidly fluctuates (vibrates) between 16-20.
According to its FM  :read:, this means valve guides are worn.  Yes, I noticed a little slop when I had the seals off.  I saw the oil around them move as I shook each valve.   :nocool:  I have to live with this for a while - no high dollar head rebuilds for now.  It will need to get worse for that to happen.

If I get the idle to 1100 and above, the engine runs smooth and I get a pretty steady 18 on the gauge. 
It drops to 5 when i bump the throttle open like it should and it bounces back to 22, then back to 18. 

So for now I raised the idle speed to 1100 and opened the mixture half a turn.  Seems to idle well and the gauge is somewhat stable at 18.  I'll see how it does on the way to work tomorrow.

Thanks for stirring my mind Dave - I forgot what tools I have here...  :rolleye:
If anyone else has any comments, please add! 
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

dave1987

Have you connected a vacuum gauge to the motor/intake yet? What's it read at idle?

A vacuum gauge can tell you a lot about a motor's condition.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

lencost

I too am enjoying this post a lot! I recently changed the vale guide seals on my V6.
1975 Wagon 8" C4 2.8 V6

78txpony

Okay, here the deal...  Normal idle speed is set to 750RPM.  Any lower and it runs too rough.

With disty hose pulled and plugged, I am set for 10*BTDC.   Engine runs rough (expected).
When I connect the disty hose, engine runs smoother and timing goes to 28*BTDC.
When I rev the engine past 2000 towards 3000, centrifugal advance takes it off the scale, maybe to 36-38* I estimate.  The disty is a reman unit installed a few months ago.

Another weird thing - my carb mixture screw is only turned open about 1/3 of a turnCCW.  Engine runs okay even with it all the way in (CW).  This is also how it was adjusted before I did all this work.
Back in 1990 when i did this type job, I was able to unscrew the mixture about one whole turn.  Whats up with that???

Also, engine runs a little smoother with disty vacuum hose is off and unplugged.  Plugging it makes it run a tad worse.  Is almost seems like its running rich...  ???

Any ideas?? 

-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

78txpony

I prolly read the marks wrong...  ::)   I had doubts when i wrote last time - I will check it tomorrow. 
Now you are saying 36* tops at idle with vacuum hooked up, right? Ot at different RPMS, too...  ???
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

71pintoracer

40-ish is to much timing. 36* total is all you should run, didn't think there was 30* advance available!!  :amazed:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

78txpony

71PR - I really appreciate all the advice so far!  :smile:

After setting to 10*, I checked it with the vac advance connected and I was getting about 30-something* at idle.  When I revved it a little, centrifugal advance took it to 40ish or more (estimating).  That sounds about right...

I will bump the cam another 2* later and see what happens.  Yes, some tinkering around will be needed to find the right combination. 

If I hammer out the semi-clogged ceramic honeycomb in the cat, I should get some better flow.  WOuld this require a carb rejet, since the engine was designed with this known restriction?  ???   I thought a more free flow would require richer jets...   Do correct me if i am wrong. 

Thanks again!!
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

71pintoracer

If you don't need the cat for smog certification, ditch it. Those old cats were very very restrictive and yea, after 30 years..... :P
If you have to run a cat, look into an aftermarket low restriction.
Kinda strange that bumping up the ign timing caused you to loose power. Might want to check your total advance to make sure the vac advance is working properly. 34-36* total is ideal.
As stated before, all cams (unless it is a custom grind) are designed to be run at 0. Advancing or retarding just changes the power band. With it advanced, the intake valve opens sooner, but the exhaust closes sooner as well. After a certain amount you are working against yourself, so to speak. In their cam info section, RW ans Esslinger say 6* should be the max either way. However, ign timing and cam timing are things that you can play with. You can "feel" the difference. (as you already noticed) So go ahead and play with them, you won't hurt the engine by going 6* with the cam or even more, it is a non-interference engine. But only do one at a time, (don't change ign timing and cam timing at the same time, work with one or the other) that way you know what made the change in the way the engine runs.  :)
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

78txpony

Okay, I set ign timing to 10* - no knocks or pings at all during a 6 mile drive. 
The initial hesitation was improved but now i seemed to have lost that extra oomph I thought I had...  ???  MAybe now i just have some filler power...  ;D
I would not think the timing change would do that... 
I once thought that the most spark retard without ping was ideal...

I did set my cam to 0* - (mine was originally off a couple degrees I think) then made the mark on the cam pulley.  I then set 3* advance. 
I think I will add 2 more and see what it does.   What happens if I go over 6*?? I am so curious...  :P

The car starts so much easier when cold and the choke pulls off fast - I have never experienced that with this car it seems!!

I pulled the cat converter and found it to be getting a little restricted..  And good cleaner for that, aside from a san-angelo bar or crowbar??  I am surprised that it was not full of oil!

-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

71pintoracer

The cam timing and ign timing have nothing to do with one another. As far as cam timing, the cam is designed to be run "straight up" or at 0 degrees to the crank. The problem is that the factory sets them "close enough" and every engine is set the same. Might be dead on, might not. Then if the head has ever been shaved, that retards the cam even more. Did you need the 3* to get your cam straight up? Or did you go an additional 3*? I would say you don't want to go more than 6* total above straight up. I ran my 2.0 at 2* but it had an aftermarket cam. All you are really doing is changing the powerband of the engine. Advancing the cam gives more bottom end which the 2.3 desperatly needs.
Play with it and see what feels best, you should be able to tell a difference at different settings, 2* at a time. Remember, if you needed the 3* to get to zero, start adding from that point. I think I read that you marked the pulley at 0 and then advanced it to 3*.
One more point, and I know this gets to dragging on and on, but with the engine out of the car you use a degree wheel and find absolute TDC. We are hoping that the factory mark is the same, but it could be off a degree or two, which in turn would throw your cam off. Most of the engines I have checked have been dead on.
So once you get the engine running good, you can play with your new toy and change the cam and see how it affects the way it runs.  :fastcar:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

78txpony

Quote from: 71pintoracer on May 14, 2010, 09:01:30 PM
GREAT JOB and a very good post!! ;D The engine looks brand new! :amazed: Try setting your base timing at 10* (you are setting it with the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged, right? Just checking! ;D) If it doesn't ping you're good. Might help with the hesitation. Once again, great job!!  :)
Many thanks...
Dude - you beat me to the next question!   :P
I was gonna ask if i should set ignition timing to stock 6* or bump it up.  I will try 10 and move back if needed.  Yep, disty hose was pulled n plugged...  ;)

NEXT question - how do you arrive at best cam timing number?  I am using 3* now.  Keep advancing until it pings (like ign.?)  The more you advance the more the power band moves down??  :o 

Should ignition or cam be timed first?  Or does it matter?  :-\
Hopefully I can get it running better. 
Thanks for the help!   :)
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

71pintoracer

GREAT JOB and a very good post!! ;D The engine looks brand new! :amazed: Try setting your base timing at 10* (you are setting it with the vacuum hose disconnected and plugged, right? Just checking! ;D) If it doesn't ping you're good. Might help with the hesitation. Once again, great job!!  :)
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

78txpony

Test run!!    :surprised:
Before filling the cooling system, I wanted to see if the car would even start and run. 
I plugged the open vacuum lines, gave a shot of carb cleaner into the carb, closed the choke and gave a short burst on the key...


KA-VAROOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :hypno: :hypno:

I hit the pedal and the idle speed dropped.  It ran a tad rough with a little valve noise, but it idled okay.  I ran it about a minute and shut it down since there was no alternator or coolant yet.    It was warm, but not hot. 
My neighbor brought over a beer and gave me a "good job!" toast!  :drunk:

The accessory belt was installed, as well as the hard heater lines, securing them with their little clips to the valve cover.
I decided to bypass the heater core, as I no longer trust the 32 year old hoses.  I cannot replace them without pulling the heater box, so that work will be done in the fall when I work on the interior some. 
I did secure the old hoses and plugged them well to keep bugs out.   :P

Day 11 -  New radiator arrives!!
So what is a $160 last-one-in-stock radiator made of??     ???
Well, on the good side, it turned out to be brass and copper.   ;D


On the ugly side, it is the same exact make and model of the piece of junk I had in there now – a ready-rad.   :nocool:
The last one was put in around 2001 and started leaking 2 years after.  I'll just have to see how this one does I guess...   :mad:

I installed a heater bypass hose, as I do not trust the heater hoses and do not need a heater for a while anyway. Note the two fail-safe brass "blowout preventers"  :lol:  I added to the heater line......  :rolleye:
These will make switching back to a heater less messy and easier to switch back to bypass mode on the side of the road should an old hose burst in heater configuration.  I got the valves from Lowes – ball valves with ¾" hose connections.

Although the radiator was new, I flushed it with water in both directions to remove any possible contaminants.
It was installed without too much difficulty – drop it in and put in 4 bolts. Glad I kept the spring nuts from the old rad. Overflow tube was installed and secured with black tie-wraps. The big radiator hoses needed no trimming to fit and I installed them with new clamps where needed. The fan guard plate went on last.
I filled the system with a 50/50 mix of coolant and distilled water, a little of each at a time.  I left the radiator cap off and added as needed.
It cranked up easily again, very little diminishing valve chatter that went away in a minute. Choke pulled off after 3 minutes or so.
Once it was hot and on slow idle, I set the speed to about 700RPM and tweaked the mixture to get a somewhat smooth idle. 

The timing belt cover had to be installed to time it and luckily it went on easily.   I got out the timing light and set the  ignition timing since it was last set with a stretched timing belt. Spec is 6*BTDC, it was at about 4.  I had to tweak the carb mixture and idle speed afterwards. I suspect worn throttle shafts and carb bushings are the causes for roughness.
Once the coolant was topped off, the genuine Motorcraft radiator cap was installed.

The polished-up air cleaner was installed last – not too bad-looking now!   :hypno:


Remember, nothing was restored or painted.  Only parts that were broke or bad were replaced.   :)


Test drive!  :fastcar:

Well, there are some good, bad, and ugly here. 
--The good is that the car runs.   :P  After some tweaks, it seemed a little more responsive with 3* cam advance.  8)  Spinning the tires around corners can be done easier, for sure...   :amazed:
--The bad is that there is a bog on initial takeoff, when before it was not too bad.   ???  At about 1600RPM, the power started kicking in.  I am still questioning the throttle shafts.  Also, the idle will be okay when shut off, and very rough after a restart a few minutes later.  :mad:  Lastly the PCV valve is very loud & buzzy!  :nocool:  If I pull it out and plug the bottom the noise stops – wow??
--The ugly is that during the engine washings, big cracks in the clutch lever boot allowed the bellhousing to fill partially with water.  :reek:  This caused lots of rust on the tranny shaft and throwout bearing.  Needless to say, a loud hollow shrill sound occurs when the clutch pedal is depressed any amount.  >:(   It happens when the bearing spins on the tranny shaft.  Also, the clutch slipped some during the first couple miles.   :nocool:
Finally, the clutch disc was sticking to the shaft splines, causing me to miss shifts.   :mad:
When I got back home, I got the car on ramps and pulled the decrepit boot.  Water drained out  :o and I tried to carefully shoot a stream of WD40 at the bearing.  It seemed to help only a smidgen and I gave up for the day. I left the boot off so hopefully it can dry out in there.  It is full of oil, too – it captured the oil from the constant valve cover leak!!   I do not feel like changing the original clutch yet!!!   :rolleye:
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

Pinto5.0

The block is machined cold & the clearances are tightest then. Things expand & move around when warmed up. Are you using the same compression tester? If you are curious just re-check it warm again.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

78txpony

.
Thanks guys - the replies do help me keep my sanity through all this!   :laugh:

Day 10 – Almost there!
I decided it would be silly to start this engine with such nasty, dirty oil in it, so I did an oil and filter change.  I only drained out 3 quarts anyway – it barely showed on the dippy stick...  :rolleye:
I used Motorcraft 15-40 diesel oil since it has higher levels of ZDDP, and I also used the Motorcraft filter that wally world always sells at a decent price.    :amazed:
Afterwards, I disconnected the coil and did a compression test with the engine cold, throttle at idle position. 
Cylinder 1 -  130 PSI
Cylinder 2 -  143 PSI
Cylinder 3 -  155 PSI
Cylinder 4 -  150 PSI
--How do these look??   ???
My close neighbor next door came over wondering why I could not get it going, and I happily told him I was just doing compression checks.   :cheesy_p:  He said if it ran first try, he would make a toast with me!   :lol:

Now the above results are interesting...  :read:
Back in 1995 with 95K miles, and with the same tester, I measured the following with the engine warm to the touch:
Cylinder 1 -  127 PSI
Cylinder 2 -  133 PSI
Cylinder 3 -  143 PSI
Cylinder 4 -  140 PSI
Does it measure better when cold?? ???
Certainly it is not "healing" and getting better... :P
Anyway, it looks like this engine will not be getting torn down in the near future! 

The spark plugs were torqued down and connected using new Motorcraft wires and separators.
Getting them nice and neat was a little challenging.   :nocool:

Test run!! 
Before filling the cooling system, I wanted to see if the car would even start and run. 
I plugged the open vacuum lines, gave a shot of carb cleaner into the carb, closed the choke and gave a short twist on the key...

:lost:
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

dave1987

I can't help but to feel so happy you are still determined with this car. I have a thing for the 78 sedans/hatchbacks and love to see them in original shape and well maintained. Keep it up!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

phils toys

just because i do not respond  does not meen i do not enjoy reanding and making mental note  in case i ever cross this  path on my own. it is very hepfull  yhanks and keep up the good advice/ work.
phil
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

78txpony


Quote from: popbumper on May 12, 2010, 12:59:42 PM
  On the driving arouund stuff, no biggie, the crackers were GREAT  :lol:
We all know the best snacks come from auto parts stores...   :rolleye:

Hopefully my radiator will be here tomorrow.  It shows to weigh 15.5 lbs on the fedex tracker and my old one weighs 13, so I am HOPING the one I get is not plastic!  <fingers crossed>

I noticed Rockauto has the rads again but for 212 - whats up with that??
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

popbumper

Rob:

  You really have an eye for detail and of course you know I am a NUT when it comes to that - great work. I have a big pile of engine accessories that I will be happy to drop off for you..... :P.

  On the driving arouund stuff, no biggie, the crackers were GREAT  :lol:

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

78txpony

.
Day 9 - Some assembly required... 
Today the rocker arms were installed.  DA'ed me left them outside in the tray the night before and we got a surprise rain that night.  :nocool:
We got a quarter inch, cause that was how much was in the &#@$%! tray...   :mad: :mad: 
I dried them off,  buffed off any rust spots, and reoiled them. The cam, valve stems and the adjusters were smeared with 80-90 gear oil. 

Whack-a-rocker!!  ;D
I slid the rockers in from the spring side, held them at the adjuster side, and whacked them firmly onto the adjusters on the spring side with a deadblow hammer. 


The ones that I could not get a hammer to were levered on with a small crowbar and a block of wood. 


The key to making this work is for the cam lobe to be straight up – not 'kinda straight'...  :o
Lastly I drenched the cam and all the parts with clean engine oil. 

Time for the valve cover to go back on!  :amazed:
I ordered the Felpro "Permadry plus" silicon rubber gasket this time which ~should~ help seal it better.  No sealant is needed – just install with care.  It is twice the price of cork, but should be much more durable, longer lasting, and more leak-proof – well worth it if those claims are true!


I tightened bolts slightly and in sequence, a little more each go-around. I used a big nut driver so I would not overtighten.  However, there are brass spacers in the gasket to prevent over-tightening and damaging the gasket.
The timing belt cover was left off for now so I can tune the cam as needed.

A REAL choke cleaning!!
Forget the choke cleaning spray – this is different...
I removed the entire automatic choke assembly to clean it up, as the choke and fast idle mechanisms were very sticky and unpredictable.
It was pretty straightforward, just remove the screws, don't drop anything, unclip the choke rod and the throttle link, and unhook the wire and vac hose. 

It was so nasty I could see why it was sticking.  :reek: This linkage should not be lubed, as lube dries up, hardens, and attracts dirt.  The green cam is very lightweight and is supposed to drop by gravity.
Also, note the fast idle cam stud pulled out and caused the fast idle arm to hang up often.   :nocool:


I took it inside to disassemble and degrease it in the sink with citrus degreaser...  :o  The clean parts were fast-dried in the toaster oven for a few minutes on low.  :o :o
Here are the clean pieces!  :hypno:

After reassembly, it looked like a new choke again!  :surprised:

It was then reinstalled and the gas pedal lubed inside and the clip outside as well.
Good progress for a weekday!!  ;D
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

78txpony

Thanks Dave!  Despite the few responses to this thread, i hope it will help others do these operations a bit more smoothly than I encountered.  If you lived closer, i would let you finish up my car - that would get those hands dirty!  :evil:   

Chris, thanks for helping out and driving me all around town looking for tools we couldn't find.  What a waste of time that was, but not all was lost - I got some ideas that let us get that blasted bumpstick out...  :nocool:
BTW, this ain't over for you YET - there is a test at the end.   :P
You will most likely have to do all this to your motor before reinstallation.  I will watch you and grade ya!   :lol:
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

popbumper

It was a blast being part of the effort, even with the difficulties we encountered. I learned a LOT in the process, and it was good comraderie. Thanks Rob for letting me be part of it. And yes, you'll get the bodywork lesson - soon  ;D.

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08