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Misc. Pinto parts

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'72 Runabout Drivers Side Door Hinge Set
Date: 12/15/2018 02:21 am
Front and rear seats for a 1976 Pinto Sedan
Date: 05/18/2020 10:22 pm
NEED 77/78 MUSTANG II Left Motor Mount
Date: 04/15/2017 05:14 pm
WTB. Seat cover or material LFront
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1978 hatch back

Date: 11/29/2019 03:18 pm
parting out 1975 & 80 pintos
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1980 hood needed
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1977 Cruiser
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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

On To The Ignition!

Started by 74 PintoWagon, June 24, 2013, 10:37:46 PM

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74 PintoWagon

Thanks, I'll watch for one of those too.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

pintoguy76

89 to 94 on the ranger I believe. Not totally sure tho. I know they had it from 91-93 also but believe they had it a year earlier and a year later also.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 15, 2013, 11:33:47 AM
I had to search beyond my city to find it... but it was only an hour away. I went and picked it up the day i found it. Was easy.


Look for a 91-93 mustang 2.3. That's the best engine to use. Its got the alternator on the correct side and everything. The ranger engine has the alternator on the opposite side but it is still usable.
Thanks much, I'll keep an eye out for one. How bout the Ranger same years?..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

pintoguy76

I had to search beyond my city to find it... but it was only an hour away. I went and picked it up the day i found it. Was easy.


Look for a 91-93 mustang 2.3. That's the best engine to use. Its got the alternator on the correct side and everything. The ranger engine has the alternator on the opposite side but it is still usable.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

74 PintoWagon

Wish I was that lucky, lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

pintoguy76

I found my engine on craigslist. I decided what I wanted and the first time I looked I found what I wanted.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 14, 2013, 11:51:15 PM
I probably have less than $300-ish in my swap. Engine was either $150 or $200 dont remember for sure. Plus $35 for the harness at pick n pull, same for the computer. Needed a few odds n ends but most of everything i needed came with the engine. I even wired in the mustang internally regulated alternator (took two wires to hook up). The engine only took about 3 wires plus some grounds.

As for the exhaust i used the stock mustang manifold. It clears everything just fine. Ranger should work too but I kept everything stock and retained the egr and everything.
Thanks, guess I'll keep an eye open for a wreck/junker, sounds like it would be an easy swap.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

pintoguy76

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on October 14, 2013, 09:41:47 PM
Yeah I know, that is really the way to go and I may change over down the road, gotta get the money tree to grow a bit first though,lol. So, you used a 91 Mustang setup huh, what do you have for an exhaust system?, I know mine is junk manifold is cracked small tubing and crap muffler, I was thinking of a ranger header and 2" back to a Flowmaster, how was the mileage after to converted to EFI?..

I probably have less than $300-ish in my swap. Engine was either $150 or $200 dont remember for sure. Plus $35 for the harness at pick n pull, same for the computer. Needed a few odds n ends but most of everything i needed came with the engine. I even wired in the mustang internally regulated alternator (took two wires to hook up). The engine only took about 3 wires plus some grounds.

As for the exhaust i used the stock mustang manifold. It clears everything just fine. Ranger should work too but I kept everything stock and retained the egr and everything.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: pintoguy76 on October 14, 2013, 08:06:08 PM
I would just convert to EFI like it did. 91 mustang 2.3 DIS EFI. Youve replied to my thread about it before. I have the same car as you. Its easy to do and you no longer have to worry about setting the timing (no distributor!!) or messing with the adjustments and working out the flat spots in acceleration, etc.  I would gladly help all I could. It is by far the best thing I have ever done to my pinto.
Yeah I know, that is really the way to go and I may change over down the road, gotta get the money tree to grow a bit first though,lol. So, you used a 91 Mustang setup huh, what do you have for an exhaust system?, I know mine is junk manifold is cracked small tubing and crap muffler, I was thinking of a ranger header and 2" back to a Flowmaster, how was the mileage after to converted to EFI?..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

rramjet

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on October 11, 2013, 11:52:33 PM

I have a dial back timing light so checking timing is easy. Set the dial where you want the timing & line the damper mark up to zero. Checking total advance is as easy as revving the engine & turning the dial until the damper reads zero then just read the number off the dial to know total advance.

My wife got me a fancy digital timing light for Xmas last year so it's a little different than just turning the knob. Got buttons to push. Of course I speced this light out for her so I have no one to blame but myself.

pintoguy76

I would just convert to EFI like it did. 91 mustang 2.3 DIS EFI. Youve replied to my thread about it before. I have the same car as you. Its easy to do and you no longer have to worry about setting the timing (no distributor!!) or messing with the adjustments and working out the flat spots in acceleration, etc.  I would gladly help all I could. It is by far the best thing I have ever done to my pinto.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on October 12, 2013, 08:40:50 AM

I have a good plain light that sits in the drawer. Unless my dial back dies I doubt I'll ever use it again.

I can't get my mileage over 17 even with the NOS carb. I had one tank that gave 21 mpg then back to 16-17 max. It want's to bobble & almost stalls when coming to a stop & run-on is bad. Something isn't right but I don't have time to figure it out. Even though it's NOS & never had gas in it I'm betting a 36 year old gasket or diaphragm gave out someplace. I'm definitely NOT a carb guru. I can tune a good carb pretty well but when the carb acts up I start whizzing in the wind & hoping I stumble on the solution.
I have a standard one too and haven't looked at it in years,lol..

Yeah I know what you mean, most of the time it's just something simple, but being that it sat so long stuff could have dried up and now you develop an internal leak, I've had that happen before and had to rebuild a brand new carb.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on October 12, 2013, 07:52:47 AM
All I use is a dial back, wouldn't be without one.

I have a good plain light that sits in the drawer. Unless my dial back dies I doubt I'll ever use it again.

I can't get my mileage over 17 even with the NOS carb. I had one tank that gave 21 mpg then back to 16-17 max. It want's to bobble & almost stalls when coming to a stop & run-on is bad. Something isn't right but I don't have time to figure it out. Even though it's NOS & never had gas in it I'm betting a 36 year old gasket or diaphragm gave out someplace. I'm definitely NOT a carb guru. I can tune a good carb pretty well but when the carb acts up I start whizzing in the wind & hoping I stumble on the solution.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on October 11, 2013, 11:52:33 PM

I have a dial back timing light so checking timing is easy. Set the dial where you want the timing & line the damper mark up to zero. Checking total advance is as easy as revving the engine & turning the dial until the damper reads zero then just read the number off the dial to know total advance.
All I use is a dial back, wouldn't be without one.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on October 11, 2013, 09:11:13 PM
My 76 calls for 20 initial & I've revved it with the timing light hooked & got 30 total not under load. I have it at 16 initial now because I can't seem to cure my valve pinging or run on. 
Wow 20* initial, guess I been around the big V8's too long, LOL, guess I'll play with timing a bit then, it seems to run decent but it's not that peppy and mileage ain't that good.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: rramjet on October 11, 2013, 11:02:11 PM
I just reworked the head on mine and it likes I'm guessing about 16 BTD as well. Same place it was before head rework. I need to learn to use the advance function n my timing light so I can see exactly where it is.

I have a dial back timing light so checking timing is easy. Set the dial where you want the timing & line the damper mark up to zero. Checking total advance is as easy as revving the engine & turning the dial until the damper reads zero then just read the number off the dial to know total advance.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

rramjet

From AMC49 "When you put ANY carb on, the first thing you ensure is that it gets the idle speed screw preset so that the butterfly or throttle blade is exactly right at the edge of uncovering the transfer holes or slot, so that even five or ten thousandths of movement instantly begins to uncover the slot or holes"

Finally got around to adjusting the carb and this step really does the trick. I set the speed at about 1.5 turns then played with the mixture screw with a vacuum gauge attached. After getting vacuum at it's highest with mixture I actually backed the speed down and vacuum increased which seems counter intuitive but I think it has to do with covering up the Transfer hole and drawing just through the Idle mixture adjustment. After that I did a little more fine tunning with the idle screw.

Sure did smooth out idle and low speed throttle transition as well as overall drivability.

rramjet

I just reworked the head on mine and it likes I'm guessing about 16 BTD as well. Same place it was before head rework. I need to learn to use the advance function n my timing light so I can see exactly where it is. 

Pinto5.0

My 76 calls for 20 initial & I've revved it with the timing light hooked & got 30 total not under load. I have it at 16 initial now because I can't seem to cure my valve pinging or run on. 
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on October 10, 2013, 07:49:28 PM
30 degrees total sounds about right.
Really??? that's all they run for total?, and all I see for initial is 6-8* but this thing needs 16* to get 30*, not that it's bad it still starts with the touch of the key just seems strange. I was thinking 12* initial with 36-38* total all in by 2500 on the centrifical and another 10* on vacuum on the cruise, of course you have to have full manifold vacuum for that. But if 30* is where they run best and get the best mileage guess I won't mess with it then. Thanks for the info..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Pinto5.0

30 degrees total sounds about right.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

74 PintoWagon

Hey guys, what do you guys run for an ignition curve on a stock 2.3?, all I can find is initial timing nothing on the total on mechanical and/or vacuum. With this new reman distributor I got all I get is 30* total with the vacuum at 2500rpm with 16* initial, that don't sound right at all to me???..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

74 PintoWagon

Yeah, ProStock is a world of it's own, more R&D goes on there than anywhere else. And those carbs are not quite out of the box items either, lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

Then you know how between MSD and careful carb setup you can get one idling at like 600 rpm just like a stock car, even with .800 lift roller cam and twin 1400 cfm Dominators.....................on the 720CI prostock fatblock Camaro my brother used to drive it sounded ticking over that slow like individual sticks of dynamite going off in the 4 inch collectors, man that thing hurt your ears at IDLE. Even racking engine off dead idle the tach pulled up so quick you couldn't follow it with your eye. 0-9000 rpm instantly, my brother said it was virtually impossible to not overrev engine in every gear and yanking Lenco sticks as fast as he possibly could. Car held world's fastest top speed prostock record in IHRA there for a bit in late '80s, he ran it in Texas Prostock Association heads up match racing. Jerry Haas car. With 3 stage nitrous it ran high sevens at 205+, car still trying to spin tires off track going into fourth gear. I always thought that boy was a bit stupid. He loved it. That car was the last of a string of like five pro cars driven by him, the cars' owner was a guy who started by bringing us 454 dragboats to hop up, he had tons of cash and owned a big string of convenience stores.

Until MSD came along I never dreamed you could get those big muthas to idle that low. So low I used to joke about knocking the cam lobes off simply by how hard the car rocked when every cylinder went off.

74 PintoWagon

No insult taken I know exactly what you mean, just a figure of speech. Done many a tunnelrams over the years and know all about initial setups.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

Just cracked can often mean many things. There is actually only one correct place for it. Attention to detail off idle corrects many things, just saying. I never accepted 'just cracked' at all when setting up tunnel ram idles and off idle, you just can't do it because everyone's idea of cracked is different. Meaning I ALWAYS yanked the carbs to see where they were before ever starting to tune.

No insult intended or implied of course.

74 PintoWagon

No choking here, lol, primary and secondary is progressive and no mixture screw on the secondary, secondary plate just has a stop screw and set just cracked, issue is strictly on the primary side, already planned on the wire trick in the jet, been doing that for ages,lol, still need to find a chart though..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

You really cannot tell rich/lean by the sound of the miss.

When you put ANY carb on, the first thing you ensure is that it gets the idle speed screw preset so that the butterfly or throttle blade is exactly right at the edge of uncovering the transfer holes or slot, so that even five or ten thousandths of movement instantly begins to uncover the slot or holes. That is the correct dead on idle setting and better than one turn on the screw which if not checked means nothing. With the idle at that point then you have the full range of off idle fuel flow and instantly. If the car does not idle at proper speed then, you have to add airhole to fake motor into thinking blades open further than they are. Having carb preset like that before you bolt it down then helps much to determine what is happening when you roll throttle open, since you already have a known point to start with. If you don't know, then you do not know whether the resultant miss is before you hit transfer or during or even past all of it. In other words doing it definitely the hard way with much more confusion.

Just looked at a cutaway of the idle circuit on a regular 5200, it clearly shows that the mixture set screw sets idle fuel at the curb idle hole only and NOT the transfer slot. The transfer gets the full idle jet fuel, the curb hole lower gets the mixture set fuel, two things to keep sorted out there. If the mixture screw is only one turn out that may well  mean too RICH off idle, the screw is in very far to cut way back meaning a LOT of fuel coming though idle jet. Get somebody to go back at tailpipe and look to see if any black smoke comes out when you slowly roll the throttle on to get into your rough running area. And of course that thinking only valid if you have the starting butterfly position as I just said. If you are into the transfer, then you may be too rich because of that, or lost. You're now adjusting mixture based on incorrect throttle blade position, or wrong.

Proper dead idle is with all idle fuel coming through the curb hole only and none through the transfers. But the transfers should then work instantly as soon as blade gets moved.

Why I use a fitting welded on exhaust somewhere to insert a narrow band O2 sensor, you can tell by the output which way to go. Screw all that guessing.

More. Just where is the idle speed setting for the OTHER barrel? If it even has one. There is usually another idle circuit in the other barrel. If 1/1 ratio and both open together, you may have complicating issues from that side too. The mixture may not be settable there, but the position of the butterfly there could be adding to the problem. Most people never even think about that one. Generally the other barrel sets just like the front, or right at any slight movement the transfer exposes, but just barely covered up at dead idle. The aircrack around the throttle plate then usually will work fine with the 'front' barrel, or the one with the mixture screw. Lots of time the other will be almost shut, which makes you have to open the one causing you trouble more, or the source of your trouble to begin with. Like on a 4 barrel, you want balance, throttle blades almost closed have to open a bit before fuel flows and troubles there. All 4 need to be cracked open a bit already, it establishes initial slight flow so that it does not have to be started up, making off idle smoother. Fuel circuits already in motion can react quicker to changes.

Try getting the idle speed screw deeper to see if you can get the idle speed fast enough to get into your bad running spot. If so, then while it is there then screw your mixture screw SHUT and see if the bad running gets better or worse. That may give you an indicator of which way the idle jet needs to go. I've been known to take extremely small OD pieces of wire and stick them into the idle jet to cut the size of the hole back, I lock the piece of wire in a side airbleed hole to keep it in place. If you know the size of the wire and the size of the idle jet hole, then a little calculating of the two areas and subtract one from the other can tell you what new size jet you need.

Sorry to choke you there..................

74 PintoWagon

Yeah I know, sounds on the lean side though?, thing is I need to find a chart somewhere that lists jet numbers and hole sizes, jets in this carb has no numbers on them so all I can go by is hole sizes, right now I wouldn't know what number jets to get.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

Flat spot just off idle can be either rich OR lean......................you get to figure out which.