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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

tires and rims

Started by JoeBob, December 04, 2018, 04:13:54 PM

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65ShelbyClone

Quote from: pintoman2.0 on February 17, 2019, 11:33:41 AM
I ran a set of Fox LX wheels on my 75 Bobcat, with 225-60-15 for years with a 1/4 inch spacer. Started without, backs wedged against the springs. The spacer took care of the problem.

They sound like 15x7s with 4.5" backspacing, which is common for Fox3s. I have some 10-hole wheels off of an '86 T-bird I was going to use, but didn't want to fuss with spacers. Then I went 5-lug anyway with 15x7 slot mags.  8)


I went with 205/50-15s to keep the height close to stock. It's slightly shorter so the speedo reads is just a tad high, but that's better than too low in my opinion. One thing to be aware of is that short sidewalls like mine will make you feel the road noticeably more for better or for worse.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

pintoman2.0

I ran a set of Fox LX wheels on my 75 Bobcat, with 225-60-15 for years with a 1/4 inch spacer. Started without, backs wedged against the springs. The spacer took care of the problem. Front rubbed on the frame rail when I turned it left all the way to the lock. I just learned to not turn that sharp. I also ran a set of GT wheels with the same size tire on my 77 Ralley Wagon without spacers, never had a problem.

JoeBob


Here is a side by side comparison of tires that came with the car and what I am getting on Tuesday.
OEM  195/70/13       Hight  23.7   Width 7.7    Speed 60mph
195/55/15                         H 23.4   -1/8"  W 7.7        Speed 59.2
This is the tire Firestone said was the only tire that would fit, and no longer made.
225/40/15                          H 22.1   
-1 ½    W 8.9  +1 1/8       Speed  55.9

I will post photos when it is all done.
Thanks again Russ


77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

russosborne

Glad you finally got someone that is willing to help.
In the past there were more stories like your first Firestone store. Most people I knew avoid them because of that.
What size are you going with?
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

JoeBob


PROBLEM SOLVED!
    Boy am I dumb. I have been fighting with lying firestone for 3 months. They lied again today. They told me there was only one tire they could source in my needed size. I called another firestone and asked for options in my size. They had loads. I was going to use this information to pressure them to deal fairly. Then I thought, why not get the new store to honor my tire guarantee.
    They were wonderful. They gave me $110 ea. credit on my 7 month old $115. tires. I need to paint Russ's rims, so installation is next week. Thank you all for advice and ideas


Bill
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

JoeBob


Go to this as provided by Whitt. You will see spedo variations listed, when you make a comparison of sizes. It is on the second page (tire comparison) 185/70/13  @ 60 mph equals 63.9 mph for 15". For myself, I don't believe an adjustment is worth the effort.

Bill


ps  Can anyone tell me the width of the OEM 13" rim?
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

Reeves1

ford man

thanks for posting the link for the gears !
Need some !

LongTimeFordMan

I posted this somewhere else but if you are concerned about correcting your speedo and odometer to tire size.. there is an easy way by changing the speedo gear.

They are available here

https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/driven-gears-for-ford-standard-transmissions-and-ford-transfer-cases/

To determine correct tooth number use a smartphone with a gps speedo app and compare readings to speed indicated on your car speedo..

For android
Speedometer & odometer - Tripmaster Car and Bike
By DS Software

Most 4 speed pintos have 19 tooth gears..

To find correct tooth number use this formula..

Remove and count teeth on existing car speedo gear or match color from pix on the website.

Drive at a speed.. maybe 60 mph as indicated by gps speedo, note speed indicated on car speedo.

Speed on gps speedo divided by speed on car multiplied by tooth count on car speedo equals  orrect tooth count on replacement gear.

Example..
car speed 65,
Gps speed 60

60÷65=.92
.92x19= 17.5

Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Wittsend

Russell did a good job of explaining it. Because you are going to 15" wheels yes, you do want a relatively short 15" tire.  Ideally as close to the original size as possible. I ran a "guessed" 185-70-13' tire as the original through this calculator with a "new size" 15" wheel https://tiresize.com/calculator/ and you can see the range that is acceptable in green. It doesn't mean you can't deviate from that slightly.  As 2.34me stated above he runs 195-55-15" tire and that does fall within the green (acceptable) range.

Plug some number into the calculator and see what you get. You can always order tires on line and then get them mounted elsewhere. As I stated above the Tire Rack has "associated" other brand tire stores that work with them. They will ship to the desired store and you just arrange an appointment.  The bulk of a tire stores profits likely come from the mount and balance far more than the tire itself. So, while a local store would also prefer to sell you the tires they are likely content to take the bigger chunk of profit on the mount and balance.

JoeBob


Witt
You mention how tall a tire is important. What number tells me how tall proposed tire is? I assume I want the shortest tires possible so as to keep the speedo close.
Turning a bigger wheel will be more strain. Is there a possibility of  abnormal wear and tear on gearing and trans?
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

russosborne

205 is slightly narrower than 225. 195 is even narrow. The bigger the number the wider the tire (very basically, it is a bit more involved). These numbers are millimeters. Width also depends on what size rim/wheel you put them on.

The other thing is going to be a problem because these cars NEVER came with 15 inch tires. So there is no CORRECT 15 inch size. You will just need to get tires there and have them mounted somewhere else most likely.

here's a decent explanation of tire sizes
https://www.justtires.com/en-US/tire-basics/tire-size

There are as Wittsend said above online tire size calculators for both width/height and the difference in speed.
For speed, all I do is follow my wife with her driving different speeds, and I look at my speedometer and see what the difference is and hopefully remember that number. On the 79 I will be using a GPS speedometer, so gears/tires/etc makes no difference.
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

JoeBob


I don't know anything about cars. Mine is a stock 77 bobcat, 4speed, with a 2.3.  I don't need performance. I am a handy capped old man. I just drive the neighborhood. Safe is all I care about. I don't know tire measurements.  What is the difference between 205 and 225.
Because I have a all stock car, can anyone tell me what I need to know to enter information in the calculator? I can show the dealer the correct size.
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

Wittsend


There are tire calculators available that allow you to see the difference in your tire sizes and engine rpm's at certain speeds. Your car having an automatic or a manual might be a factor. But likely most important is the rear ratio.  If you are in the 3.40, 3.55 area you can go with somewhat taller tires. If you are in the 3.00 and sub ratios you likely don't want taller tires. Comparing the rpm's of your current tire size and a proposed tire on "paper" is a start. BTW, the Firestone dealer stating 225-40-15 tires is odd.  Following the factors that equates similarly to roughly a 205-60-15" tire which is much more common.


I think that 205-60-15" tires aren't that bad a size..., ratios permitting. And the speedo can be re-calibrated closer with an appropriate speedo gear. It may not be perfect, but you can get it close. If the tires you received hold air try them out temporarily to get an idea of how the car responds with the 225-60-15".


In summary, gear ratios don't mean much and tire sizes don't mean much but tire size and gear ratios combined mean everything.  BTW, have you looked to the Tire Rack for tires?  They even deliver to the many "associate" tire dealers in your area and you just show up with your old tires/rims for the mount and balance.

one2.34me

I have a set of 195/55-15's on 15x7 rims on my Pinto. Very close to the same diameter as a 185/70-13.

russosborne

If used is a possibility you would consider, I just saw this on Craigslist in your area.
https://denver.craigslist.org/wto/d/denverused-firestone-affinity-touring/6784982242.html
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

You can do 205 60 on those wheels also.
I'm thinking smaller is a safer bet.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

225 60 was what were on them. 215 60 might be a better fit for you
But let's see what others think.

And forget Firestone if at all possible. Discount Tires or Big O, or what you have around you. Shop for the tire size, not the car. Pintos never came with 15 inch wheels.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

JoeBob


     I thought I would update everyone about our wheel deal. I received the wheels today just as Russ promised. He is a real gentleman.
     Firestone is a real problem. This started with new 13" all season tires with no grip on frost or worse. No other tires were available. They suggested I upsize to 15" They also informed me of a suggested 15" tire they would pprovide. After 2 months I lost their recommendation.
     They now say the only tire that will work (they did math calculations) is 225/40/15  This tire does not exist. I asked is this calculation for the purpose of speedometer or safety?  Tire salesman paused and said "kinda both." I think he is BS ing me. I got the wheels from Russ because they recommended it.
     I gladly paid Russ the shipping price for the wheels. He did exactly what he said he would do. Not only did he give me free wheels, he gave me his time. I would not have wasted his time if I knew Firestone was unreliable.   
     What size 15" tires are you all using? These rims are 15"x7


Bill
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

LongTimeFordMan

Agreed..

I actually met Aadlen i think.. he was an old guy who hung out at the yard on penrose.. he had a pacemaker and so did i so we swapped stories..he was pretty cool. I bought a lot of mgb and 76 dodge truck parts there.. s8nce the early 90's. I liv3d about 2 miles away and used to go there and walk around for exercise..
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Wittsend

LTFM, My bad. You are right the LKQ Pick Your Part is on Pendelton.  If you have a 10-20 year old car if might be a usable source for parts. Nothing else though. And yes, I have left many a part on the check out counter when they tried to jack up the price. Also had my credit card number lifted there. Only used cash there ever after.

Once I even bought an engine then AFTER I paid for it the guy at the gate said the exhaust manifolds weren't included. He offered me the option of giving him "some money" or going back in line at the counter. I had another guy hounding me because he wanted the engine lift. I threw the guy $4 and left.  For years people went in with tools and dismounted tires themselves.  Then one day after I had paid for the tires the guy at the gate strongly harassed me telling me I wasn't allowed to do so and threatened to bar me from the place.  There was NEVER a sign to this day stating that they prohibited the process.

The place is SO poorly managed. On sale days the Premo section (about 40% of the volume) has ONE guy checking people in AND checking people out. The Regular section has five people for about 60% of the people - and they don't have to check people in. Look at their engine prices on line. They sell engines as "complete" and as "packages." NOTHING defines what the difference is and price wise they are all within a few dollars. Then where most engine "packages" (fuel injected, turbo etc.) are in the upper $200/lower $300 range for some stupid reason a "carburetor" engine package is over $700!  WHAT???  If anything it should be cheaper.

-----

The Penrose yard (U-Pick Parts) was the American yard and the Foreign yard (separate) was closer to Telfair and I believe called A Foreign??? But they  basically had same owner (Aadlen Brothers). In their last few years they took the wall down between them (saved $2 on admission) and moved the Foreign yard to the front of the American section. In fact, in their closing months there was no admission charge. They just had you sign the wavier. This was the quirky yard with a water buffalo in a corral and many other oddities. Here are a few articles about the yard closing.
http://sanfernandovalleyblog.blogspot.com/2015/10/sun-valleys-u-pick-parts-closing-down.html

https://www.dailynews.com/2015/10/29/sun-valleys-venerable-u-pick-parts-junkyard-to-close/

Wittsend

[
Quote from: russosborne on December 09, 2018, 10:50:14 PM
Hopefully these two come out better.
Russ

Ahh, Haa. It is the hole for the single screw center cover, coupled with the (previous) angled image, that made it look like a possible fifth lug bolt hole. Yes, obviously 4 bolt pattren for sure.

LongTimeFordMan

Hi.. actually the LKQ is on pendleton and glenoaks across from the dump..  i never had much luck there.. when i lived in sun valley on vineland i was into mgb's and used to go the foreign  yard on both tuxford  and the american yard on penrose for parts for my rv..

I think the LKQ yard changed ownership sometime in the 90s there sed to be a section called memory lane there where they had a lot of classics.. i would cherry p8ck the goodies from.british cars, switches, allison ign modules, etc for really cheep. But then they got wise..

And the main yard checkout people couldnt recognise parts and often undervalued them.. then LKQ took over and things changed

I never had much success at the new LKQ yard since most of the check out people were latin, tended to speak spanish a lot behind the counter and tended to price gouge non hispanics..

And they did nickle and dime a lot.. if you bought an engine, they charged for pulleys, mounts, water pump, etc..

I think the yards on tuxford and penrose used to be one then they split it up to foreign and domestic... at least i remember the "domestic" yard on penrose having a lot ot mgb cars there in the 90s.

The folks at the yards on tuxford and penrose seemed a lot fairer and prices were better..

Anyway.. end of an era...
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

russosborne

Hopefully these two come out better.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Bill, I will try to get a picture of the other side tomorrow with the center cap on.
Didn't realise how bad the reflections were on this one, like I said I was in a hurry to get to work and that side was the only one the car cover wasn't covering completely.
That spot that caused the confusion is the nut that the center cap mounting screw goes into.
Definitely 4 lug Fox Body Mustang. Not  sure of the exact rim width, but you can go a bit narrower or wider than the tires that are on it. Depending on clearance with the car that is.
I actually had bought these for the 89 Mustang I had, but scrapped that car. Tossed these on the Pinto so I could move it around after selling the tires/wheels it came with.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Wittsend

Well Bill this gets better all the time. So, they are the stock bolt pattern (so much for pictures telling the whole story). And it is very generous for Russ to offer them to you. Hope it all works out.

JoeBob


Thank you Russ. Just let me know what you need.
Bill
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

russosborne

And what sale?
They are free.
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

These are fox body Mustang. Direct fit.  .
They are currently on my 79 Pinto, no adapters needed.
Sorry for any grammar errors, just woke up. can't see the keyboard well

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Wittsend

Frankly it is hard to tell in the picture if that is a fifth wheel stud..., or a reflection that looks like a fifth wheel stud. The stud spacing on the right looks 4 bolt but the stud spacing on the left looks 5 bolt. It may just be picture distortion. If they are 4.25 X 4 then that saves about $350 right there and also eliminates the extra widening that the adapter would create. Many issues solved.  So, if they are 4 bolt my apology for the unnecessary concern. Better to be safe than sorry (as a buyer).

JoeBob


Russ
Did I misunderstand this offer, or did Whitt? It is my impression that you are offering 15" 4 lug direct fit rims. Just bolt on and go. Nothing besides tires are necessary. I have the nuts.
Thank you
Bill
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9