Mini Classifieds

'80 Pinto Wagon
Date: 02/01/2018 05:20 pm
Ford 2.3L new gaskets for sale
Date: 12/10/2016 04:11 pm
1980 Pinto w/ Trunk
Date: 08/10/2022 04:09 pm
New cam

Date: 01/23/2017 05:11 pm
1977 pinto rear bumper
Date: 04/19/2021 11:57 am
1972 Rallye wagon rebuild
Date: 11/14/2020 07:31 pm
6.6.75 carrier
Date: 02/14/2018 06:47 am
I have a 1977 Cobra body lots of parts here
Date: 04/12/2017 06:57 pm
Interior Parts
Date: 08/07/2017 03:59 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,576
  • Total Topics: 16,268
  • Online today: 152
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 187
  • Total: 187
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

tire question

Started by dholvrsn, August 23, 2006, 06:52:19 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

edselbill

Okay... here I am.  Total newbie to the site and Pinto Specs.  I've read all below but am still unsure.  Can anyone help with suggestions.

I just bought a totally restored '77 V6 Squire.  She has what I would term, the factory "Rally" wheels  (Black, with silver trim, centercap with red decals, and trim rings -- not the slotted mags I had on my '79).

The tires on it are brand-new, Uniroyal Tiger Paw 185-70's, Blackwalls.

Problem is...

1)  They look too small for the car / wheel wells
2)  Because of the short sidewall, the car rides like they are made of stone... too firm, too much banging.


What I want...

1)  As close to original looking as possible.  I am not looking to make the car look mean, over-tired, aggressive, racy, etc..  So, I don't want big wide monsters or anything sticking out of the fenderwells.

2)  I want to soften the ride as much as possible / higher aspect ratio

3)  Whitewalls

4)  To properly fill the fender-wells without over doing it.

5)  I live in the Northeast, so light snow and wet traction is necessary.

What do you suggest....?

I have found:

Coopers Trendsetters -- 175-80's and 185-80's
Kelly -- 185-80's and 175-80's
Komho -- 185-80s and 185-70's


I see below that people are hunting down 195's and even 205's, but that sounds a bit more aggressive than I think I want.  But, without seeing an example, I can't judge.

Do 185-80's, with a 24' hight do the trick or should I be looking for bigger?


I'm the new owner of what might possibly be the most "restored' '77 Pinto Squire around.  I had a '79 Strsky & Htch stripped glass-back back in the 80's and love it.  I crave "originality" and this Squire is unbelievable.  Glad to be back into Pintos!

earthquake

I checked today and BF Goodrich still makes a 235 and a 265-50-14.I have the 265s and they fill the wheel wells nicely.
73 sedan parts car,80 crusin wagon conversion,76 F 250 460 SCJ,74 Ranchero 4x4,88 mustang lx convertable,and the readheaded step child 86 uhhh Chevy 4x4(Sorry guys it was cheap)

goodolboydws

Sorry.
The tire data posted was from a tire comparator site into which I punched the various tire sizes shown. I forgot to also post the sites' URL.

I'll do better than that now.

Here's the original URL on which I found the link for the tire size comparator. It is one of the most extensive link sites for automotive related technical data that I have yet found. A good thing to bookmark.

stealth316.com/1-tech.htm

Scroll down lower on the page for general sites not specific to the Stealth.

Look for Miata.net, that's the tire comparator I used.


dholvrsn

So was I pushing it on having those 205s on my '80 Pony and thinking about putting them on my '79 wagon?
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

77turbopinto

Great info GOBDW.

Also, keep in mind that those dimentions are ESTIMATES.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

goodolboydws

Oh heck, I thought that you actually wanted real world tire to wheel fitment advice, not just to fill up those wheel wells.


this may help:


Tire Size Comparison

Specification  Sidewall  Radius  Diameter  Circumference  Revs/Mile  Difference
165/70-13         4.5in  11.0in    22.1in         69.4in        913        0.0%

175/70-13         4.8in  11.3in    22.6in         71.1in        891        2.5%
185/70-13         5.1in  11.6in    23.2in         72.9in        869        5.0%
195/70-13         5.4in  11.9in    23.7in         74.6in        849        7.5%
205/70-13         5.6in  12.1in    24.3in         76.3in        830       10.0%
215/70-13         5.9in  12.4in    24.9in         78.1in        812       12.5%
225/70-13         6.2in  12.7in    25.4in         79.8in        794       15.0%
185/60-13         4.4in  10.9in    21.7in         68.3in        928       -1.6%
195/60-13         4.6in  11.1in    22.2in         69.8in        908        0.5%
205/60-13         4.8in  11.3in    22.7in         71.3in        889        2.7%
215/60-13         5.1in  11.6in    23.2in         72.8in        871        4.8%
225/60-13         5.3in  11.8in    23.6in         74.2in        853        6.9%
235/60-13         5.6in  12.1in    24.1in         75.7in        837        9.1%
185/50-13         3.6in  10.1in    20.3in         63.7in        994       -8.2%
195/50-13         3.8in  10.3in    20.7in         65.0in        975       -6.4%
205/50-13         4.0in  10.5in    21.1in         66.2in        957       -4.6%
215/50-13         4.2in  10.7in    21.5in         67.4in        940       -2.9%
225/50-13         4.4in  10.9in    21.9in         68.7in        923       -1.1%
235/50-13         4.6in  11.1in    22.3in         69.9in        906        0.7%
245/50-13         4.8in  11.3in    22.6in         71.1in        891        2.5%
255/50-13         5.0in  11.5in    23.0in         72.4in        875        4.3%

And remember, the cars' final drive ratio will be changing with the tire size change.

dholvrsn

My previous Pinto had 205-70-13 radial tires on the same wheels. I wonder if that's okay for my current Pinto. Actually, I wonder if it's okay to go bigger, if I can still find the tires, without getting into trouble.

Gotta fill up those fenderwells. :laugh:

Will see what Ben Fish in Sioux City has sitting around after Thanksgiving or Christmas.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

FCANON

Pepboys sells a 205/60 13 as well....Futura is the tire brand

I've had good luck with them so far running them for 5 years on my Falcon wagon (13's on this car)

I have have been looking for some muscle looking tires for my Pinto wagon. I ended up using 14's on the back.

Frank
www.pintoworks.com   www.tirestopinc.com
www.stophumpingmytown.com
www.FrankBoss.com

earthquake

I have 205-60-13s on mine.I believe they are still available from BF Goodrich.
73 sedan parts car,80 crusin wagon conversion,76 F 250 460 SCJ,74 Ranchero 4x4,88 mustang lx convertable,and the readheaded step child 86 uhhh Chevy 4x4(Sorry guys it was cheap)

wagonmaster

185/70-13 is probably the largest tire you will find these days and most tires manufacturers have settled on 175/70-13 as their largest offering. I personally prefer 195/70-13 for the little additional rubber on the ground. Over the years that I had my '77 Squire (close to fourteen years), the car felt more stable with the 195s and it didn't feel like the tires were going to break loose every time a long sweeper was taken at speed. I also felt that the extra rubber made the car stop more surely with less lockup. Since I have not been able to find 195s anymore, I have gone to 185s and the above mentioned areas have suffered some.
Brien - wagonmaster
'85 LTD LX
'85 LTD Squire wagon

goodolboydws

A 5.5" width wheel equates to 139.7mm, according to my calculator.

In general practice, having a tire with a section width no more than an inch and up to 2 inches wider than the wheel width, on a smaller, narrower wheel such as this, is still going to be reasonably safe.

Since an inch is 25.4mm, adding that 1 inch to your wheels' width, (which is measuring from the INNER  side of the bead flange across to the matching flange-the part that touches the outer side of the tires' bead) would give you a 165mm section width tire, adding a second inch would get you up to a 190mm section width tire.

The closest actual tire size to that on the safer side would be a 185.
(If I remember correctly, 185-70-R13's is what I used on my 4 speed '71 sedan on 5.5" slotted aluminum American Racing wheels, and that was a MOSTLY good running street combination which I used for many years with the light car, especially when using aftermarket traction bars and an antisway bar..... But Winter driving in the North still needed a very light touch on the stop and go pedals to keep the car going where the steering wheel pointed it.) 

Wider than that is up to you, but your real world performance may suffer dramatically with a light weight car (as mine did), in low friction conditions (snow/standing water, etc.) as the weight per square inch of the tire' footprint continues to decline as the width of the footprint increases, so bad weather traction rapidly decreases as tires get wider. Not as important in truly dry, warm weather areas.

Also, consider this:
When you DO mount a significantly too wide tire onto a relatively narrow wheel, the sidewalls of the tire are forced to fold inwards somewhat from their molded in neutral position, and the section width actually comes out narrower than it would have if mounted on the proper width wheel.

A tires' performance profile is generally designed around a specific wheel width, so getting a tire that is within the recommended range for a particular wheel is always safe idea, and usually a smart one too.

A little bit of too narrow wheel and too wide tire isn't too bad on a street car, if appearance rather than performance is your main thing, and you never intend to push the limits of your cars' ability to go through turns at speed, for example, but running those too wide tires will result in compromised tire performance, and shorter tire life as the tires' tread will always be attempting to lift at it's edges when being used at "normal tire pressures, with the relatively low weight of the vehicle not being enough to "flatten" the wider, (and higher load rated) tire onto the pavement. Compensating for that tendency requires lowering the tire pressure, which makes the cars' handling suffer, even if the vehicles' perceived "ride quality" (as in softness) improves.

And one more thing.
TRY not to change the tires' HEIGHT too much, even if you do go wider, as the rear ends' final ratio will be dropping in lockstep with each tire size height increase, and a lot of Pintos don't have much (if any) torque to spare down low. Too tall tires, coupled with a lot of nice looking new, wide rubber now firmly gripping the road will make an unaltered Pinto want to fall on it's face rather than lighting them up, with anything less than a high rpm take off. 

dholvrsn

What's the biggest tire that one could conscientiously mount on a 5.5"x13" mag wheel?

How about not so conscientiously? :evil:
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser