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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Pinto Wagon value:IF YOU LOVE YOUR PINTO...READ THIS: MODERATOR:

Started by Pinto_Mum, January 14, 2004, 01:57:37 PM

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Crazybry79

Quote from: discolives78 on September 29, 2008, 11:09:46 PM
....  I have uninsured motorist insurance, And if something were to happen....

Whoooa.  Let me share an experience with you all, and hopefully save you from alot of headaches from a misunderstanding.

Back in the day, I had a '78 CobraII, fully restored  ~thanx dad~.  I carried liability, uninsured, and underinsured.  No collision, because if I wreck it...it's MY problem....other than that, Im covered...

Not the case.  The car was parked in a lot, and someone T-Boned it.  Considered a total loss.  The guy who hit it had no insurance.  I called my insurance guy and wanted to file a claim on my unisured part of the policy.

THATS when I learned that uninsured and underinsured coveres you only.  And by you, that meansyourself....not the car.  It only covers medical expence for yourself.

Ended up taking it in the arse on that one.  Filed a civil suit, and well....still waiting in line with multiple other debtors...

Just dont want anyone else making MY mistake!

Great thread though!  Sorry to hyjack....and will now return to our regular schedled posts!  :)
Why do you park in a driveway, and drive in a parkway?  A cargo goes by ship, a shipmeny goes by truck.....You have a pair of panties, but just one bra......

71pintoracer

Check out collector car insurance like Haggarty or Grundy. I have my car insured for $10,000.00 with Grundy. No restrictions on how much you can drive it, however it does have to be garaged. It actually cost less to insure with them with 0 deductible than state farm who valued it at $2200.00 and 500 deductable. Not all insurance companys care how much you spend on your car or how well it is documented.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

beegle55

Luckily insurance companies around WV have a good respect for vintage cars and when my car was wrecked, the offered a good price for the fix and it almost amounted to the full amount required to fix it. In addition, the car was listed on the title for about $400 less than the $1400 damages to the car, but they overlooked that and their adjuster was fair to me because the car was nearly ammaculate and I was at no fault. I was fortunate. Many are not. Keep records and appraisals before something bad happens if it would happen is never a bad idea.

    -beegle55
2005 Jeep GC 5.7 HEMI
1993 Ford Mustang
1991 Ford Mustang GT
1988 Ford Mustang
1980 Ford Pinto Cruising- Mint, Fully documented
1979 Ford Pinto Trunk- 2.3L 4 speed
1978 Ford Pinto HB- 302 drag car
1976 Ford Pinto Runabout- 40,000 mi, V6
1972 Ford Maverick Grabber (real)
1970 Ford Mustang 302

SageNip

Last March I was T-boned by a drunk driver at 11:30AM while in my 1980 Pinto Wagon.  It WAS a beautiful car, lots of mods on it.  It was destroyed and I got a shattered pelvis.  The insurance carrier offered $540.  I freaked on them.  Sent them loads of pictures, receipts, lists of car shows it's been to.  Their final offer.... $680.  I took it.  F**kers.  It's a shame.

In Aug. 08 I got my '72 Squire wagon (68,000 orig.) from a yard for $400!!  Put some gas in, charged a battery and 6 starts later it fired up!  Now I am keeping SERIOUS records of every little thing I have done to the car.  Appraisals are good ideas, haven't done that yet, but plan on it.
Blacksmith, weldor, sculptor, 8 track collector, Pinto enthusiast, retired sideshow performer, manipulator of flesh and steel.... keep your ponies warm.

discolives78

Keep track of everything, Know what it would cost to replace it and try to get it back if at all possible.  My car was wrecked in front in 1988, The previous owner's insurance company wanted to total it and give her $300, Since it had sentimental value she persisted and kept it (lucky for me!)  She had an independent body shop straighten the frame and replace both fenders, hood, grille and bumper with used parts and paint the car. The drawbacks: it cost her $1800 in 1988 to have the work done with USED parts. it took almost a year for the work to be completed because its "just a Pinto".  I drive my car to work and back and to doctors appointments and to the store and not much else,  I try to pay attention at all times.  I take "back" roads where the speed limit is 40 or less most of the the time, sometimes on the old highways at 55-60 mph but not much faster.  I have uninsured motorist insurance, And if something were to happen to my car I would want it back just for the engine and transmission.  And the first thing I would do is buy another Pinto.


A virtual version of my last Pinto. Was Registered Ride #111. Missed every day.

Fred Morgan

hjeefb I totaly agree with but you know not going to happen. My daughter's 73 got nailed in driver's door. Soon as she called that ajuster was coming over I hoped on motorcycle whent to car put my boxing gloves on and whent after that lady. So I would talk my daughter through every time she talked to ins. co. . She ended up with $3800. and I kept the car.
Fred Morgan- Missing from us...
January 20th 1951-January 6th 2014

Beloved PCCA Parts Supplier and Friend to many.
Post your well wishes,
http://www.fordpinto.com/in-memory-of-our-fallen-pinto-heros/fred-morgan-23434/

hjeffb

I'm not sure if this will work but whatever the insurance company tells you it is worth (which I'm sure will be lowballed) turn around and hand the check back to them and say "OK if this is a fair price for the car , here replace it with this check you just gave me" .  See what they say about that .  ;D

Original74

Dave Herbeck- Missing from us... He will always be with us

1974 Sedan, 'Geraldine', 45,000 miles, orange and white, show car.
1976 Runabout, project.
1979 Sedan, 'Jade', 429 miles, show car, really needs to be in a museum. I am building him one!
1979 Runabout, light blue, 39,000 miles, daily driver

Pintony

Quote from: starkey and hutch on February 27, 2008, 09:41:53 AM
Your 2 cents is worth ten million your so right if you put money into a car to refeb it ,get it appraised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!the other opt is dont drive it.
That is great for those like me who are planning a Pinto museum.... ;D

starkey and hutch

Your 2 cents is worth ten million your so right if you put money into a car to refeb it ,get it appraised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!the other opt is dont drive it.

D.R.Ball

I also have a MPG wagon ,what's so rare about them... ::) As for the wrecked one's owners It should be able to be repaired...I mean it has not been crushed flat etc..But I can not tell until I see some pictures....Remember the insurance folk's care about a few things money and loss verses risk....

jimspinto

Quote from: Pinto_Mum on January 16, 2004, 01:58:54 PM
So we have the Pay-off value...........
which equates to 32% of its $ value when bought in 1978 and almost 80% of what we paid for the car (2K) in April 2003 (8 months before it was written off).

They will pay off to us $1595 total.  They also paid for a hire car which extends to next week i.e.  he has transport to go find a low mileage inspected/inspectable car for $1595.  Doubtful that we'll find a 59K original mile Pinto Wagon delivered to our driveway for that price!
and they paid the $55 a day ($770) while it was
at the towing place till the appraiser looked at it.
******************************************************************************************  were you able to get and keep the car ~~ if you have any way to part it out, its worth something that way ~~ Also, I have mine insured [by Haggerty] for $7500.00 and I think thats too low
  Holiday best to you, JIMSPINTO
******************************************************************************************

Yes - I was worried that the pay off would be $200-$500 I would have settled at $1750 and at the value they offered it seems pointless to argue over $150.

None of this monetary stuff captures what a Pinto wagon can do to your heart though - the tears were rolling down my face when I saw her being cranked up on the tow truck (Adessa salvage ended up with her - and I see they do parts for classic cars).

So not as bad as I feared BUT he'll have to save
some to get another Pinto! and I think the next time he'll just use it for summer cruz nights and have an every day car to get from A to B.

Thanks for your support guys - I appreciate it!
Jacqui

jimspinto

  I just joined this site ~~ belong to many other car sites, as I have 13 [thats right threeteen] cars ~~ I clicked onto this section, because I was going to tell about my "Pinto" and how I got it ~~ I will do so in just a moment, but first I had to reply to you and your question
  I purchased my pinto about two years ago for $6300.00 and think I stole it at this price ~~ Its a 1973 stag.wag. ~~ all original with 30,000 miles ~~ of course its a four banger, with an automatic trans. and air/cond. ~~ the 2000 engine, talk about cant get out of its own way, this the one
  Will start another post and a story of how I got the car, for now I wanted to tell you what I paid, and AGAIN I think I stole it at that price [$6300.00]
  Good luck dealing with insurance companys.  JIMS PINTO

Cobrabob8

I have Grundy Classic Car Insurance on my 1977 Ford Mustang Cobra II and it only costs me $128.00 a year.  This is for full coverage and an agreed value of $7,000.00.  You can find them on the internet.  It is an insurance company specifically for older collector cars.
Drive a Ford or nothing at all !

TulsaTurbo

Insurance is a main concern to me especially when you are sinking a bunch of cash into your vehicle. I would like everyone to consider Hagerty Classic Car Insurance. I have been with them a couple of years now and have absolutely no complaints. I currently have 2 vehicles with them and the pinto is next. They even cover vehicles under active restoration. Everything can be done online.

Here is a link to see if your car qualifies:
http://www.hagerty.com/Auto/vehicle_qualify.aspx

NOTE: They will need a lot of pictures. Cars can not be daily drivers. As far as I know minimum value for consideration to get insured is $5000.

My cars currently covered:
1984 Mazda Rx7 Mariah WideBody


1984 Toyota Corolla Sr5 converted to GTS

Pintaro

This is to 75Wagonboy, or anyone else who can tell me. What is so rare about the 75 mpg wagon? I drive one every day with 37,000 miles.  Pintaro

oldcarpierre

Just to add my two cent's worth.

Us old car lovers are a special breed.   An insurance adjuster would likely understand why someone would be interested in a late 60's Mustang, Barracuda or TransAm, but they could never imagine what we could possibly see in a Pinto, a Dart or a Vega.

The Pinto is special to me because I am an old car guy, and a Pinto was my first car back when it was just a used car.   I like my cars original, and this one is as original as they get, so to ME (and to very few other people on this planet), it is priceless.   To most people outside this group, it is just a piece of junk.

Like 78pinto, I have vintage car insurance on both my antiques.   It has all kinds of restrictions (you can't use the car as transportation), but it is very inexpensive.   They don't insure the car, they insure the value of the car, and your premium is a percentage of this value.   They don't care if it's a Model T, a Pinto or a Super Bee.   If it gets damaged, they won't try to fix it.   They will just throw money at you, up to a pre-determined amount.

I don't know if this type of insurance is available for daily drivers.   If it is not, then you need to consider the following anytime you take the car out: if you are ever in a wreck, or even a small bender with your daily driver vintage car, you are likely S.O.L. with an insurance company.   Understand this pulling out of the driveway.
1974 Medium Lime Yellow Pinto Sedan
14000 Miles - Unrestored Original in the garage
2013 Ford Taurus out in the rain

jmmenzies

... Wow, I thought I was the only one that age who actually will say out loud that I love my Pinto. My husband thinks Im nuts, but I love my Penny, the Pinto, she gets me everywhere!!! Im expecting my first in a few weeks and Im going to take him all over the place in her!!! I hope he likes her as much as I do!
The Ford Family.

yeahitsnotahemi

Quote from: fast34 on February 09, 2006, 02:58:09 PM
Were you able to put it back together???
yeah it went back together pretty easily. with the exception of the air vent hoses never did find those
1980 mercury bobcat v8 conversion

75wagonboy

I have found it easy to ensure I will never be left in the cold in an accident.  Here are the steps you should take to ensure you are the same.
1. Take a lot of pictures, inside and out.
2. Get collector or classic plates.  They will restrict your joy riding, but will save you in an accident.
3. Get your car appraised at least every 5 years.  Values change everyday.
4. Insure your car for at least the appraised value with classic or collectors insurance.
    Most insurance companies have a special policy for this.
5. A true american classic like a Pinto is best saved for weekends and joy rides.

I have found all of this out throughout the process of restoring one of the rarest of the Pinto breeds.  The 1975 MPG Wagons.  I love my car and will do anything to keep it safe.  With a search still going strong, I have yet to find a Wagon MPG on the road.  If you love your baby as much as me, protect it like a diamond in the rough.  The Pinto was the American car of the 70's.  Take care and safe driving.
Bryant

fast34


yeahitsnotahemi

Well
My story is like this some people are gonna find this unbelieveable but here it goes anyway. i had a 78 pony drove the bejesus out of it couldnt kill it. while out christmas shopping in 1998 the car was stolen . that following summer at the county fair i found it. basically stripped in prep for a demo tailights out.,no windows in it,no interior. notified the cops of what was mine. had all the numbers ran and matched and took it home. where the next day they called me and i picked up the rest of it in a pick up truck. this same guy was paralyzed from the waist down in an auto accident that involved the stolen camaro he was driving.  i hate to dwell on other peoples misfortune but the thief got what he deserved
1980 mercury bobcat v8 conversion

78pinto

Quote from: 78pinto on January 14, 2004, 05:49:36 PM
first off, let me say welcome to the board! Sorry to hear about the accident, glad your son is ok. Sadly i think you will be very dissapointed at what your insurance company will offer you, they will look in a book and say its worth "suchnsuch"  What i would do is take pictures of the car, body, paint, interior, undercarriage and make sure they can see it was in excellent shape before the accident. If you have any reciepts for work done on it (brake job, engine work, ect..) that may help also. Real value is hard to determine as its only worth what someone is willing to pay (to you the car may seem to be worth lets say $2500, to someone else....its a '78 Pinto.....a winter car....worth $200) My advice to you and others reading this post is to have your cars (any car that has more value than book value) professionally appraised, with detailed information on modifications and rebuilding cost...pictures are a must, good quality ones covering every aspect of the car. Next, go to an insurance company with that appraisal and get a price for insurace with the vehicle insured at its appraised value, even if you have to use a classic car insurer (silverwheels) My '78 Pinto coupe is appraised and insured for $13000.00! I only pay $260 a year for this  ....but it has limitations. I can't take it to any shopping malls or drive it to work and it can only be taken away with me on holidays (summer) if my vacation consists of some auto related event (car shows, cruise night ect) I could probably never sell my car for $13000.00 unless the right buyer came along, but at least its insured for what i have into it and then some, to me its priceless and if God forbid, i ever wreck it, i know what i'm going to get for it.....with no fight!  Good luck to you, i hope you get what its worth.  Jeff,  Moderator, fordpinto.com

I just had my Pinto reapraised last week, as there has been many modifications and upgrades since it was done last.......new value sits at $18K i have a bit more than that into it, but i'm happy knowing that if disaster strikes, i'll get most of my money back. I encourage you all to have your beast apraised, and insure it accordingly.
** Jeff (78Pinto) is Missing from us but will always be a part of our community- We miss you Jeff **

dirt track demon

not just 90's cars either, they tried to total my 2002, over a bumper cover and the styrofoam under it, hood, door skin, a/c radiator, a headlight and paint.  I got lucky though, the insurance adjuster unwittingly gave me enough info to draw my own conclusions.

  Make friends with a body shop.  They were going to total my beloved hyundai if the repairs cost more than 4800 roughly.  I got the body shop to value the repairs at less than that amount, and then turn the "revisions" in after the work was already under way.  The final cost was over 5800. And i still have the car with a clean title.

There are some other factors, but i fear to put them in print.
Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

renton481

Read a lot of your stories with much chagrin.

It seems a lot of the problem is the cost of body work.  My mom had problems with her 93 Subaru -- she was rear ended, and even though the car was repairable, it was "totalled", because body shops charge so much for repairs.

So -- ANY used car you've got, even a 90's model -- if you care about the car you drive, BEWARE.  Even a fender bender could "total" your car.

An irony -- a family member got in a wreck with my '66 Fairlane, and it was totalled.  I got the money, and with it I bought my 79 Pinto wagon (in 1988).  I didn't hold onto my Fairlane, but I definitely am keeping my Pinto!

el1976pinto

Here's my insurance story. My wife and I decided to buy a 1970 4 door slant 6 Dodge Dart to keep the miles down on our 76 Pinto. In time I fell in love with the Dart and my wife ended up driving the pinto every day and I would take our Dart. By the way, this Dart was in great condition, looked like it was maybe 5 years old. In fact it was 32 at the time of its death. Origional paint, interior, engine purred, AC still worked. 119,000 MI.
  Back to the point. I was entering a highway on ramp that was under cunstruction so there was a yeild sign rather than just speeding up and merging. Since it was rush hour I had to stop and yeild until an opening in traffic came along. Well the guy in the white F150 behind me apparently didnt (A) notice the yeild sign, and (B) notice my gleeming 70 Dart at a dead halt in front of the yeild sign. No, he accelerated until he was about ten feet from my bumper before slamming on his binders and plowing into me, sending me instantly into freeway rush hour traffic at about 40 MPH (police estimate, I say more like 50 MPH).
Somehow, by the grace of god, nobody else hit me (although I heard alot of tires squeeling) and I ended up about 100 feet from the point of impact.
  Blah, blah, blah, I relentlessly insisted to the losers insurance company that this wasnt "just some old car" it was a very rare example of a breed that is all but extinks (you know, the granny fresh, non-muscle grocery getters). I showed them picture sof it before, and also dropped some lines about some nagging neck pain.
  In the end I got $2,600 for the car - double what we paid ($1,300), and I got to keep the car with a salvage title. I then ebayed the crap out of it, and made over a grand more.
   In the end I made out like a bandit, but the truth is I would trade it all back just to have my Dart back.

  The real silver lining in all of this is that it wasnt my wife driving the Pinto in the 40 - 50 MPH rear end collision.

  Sorry I ramble.

sagesunrise

Here's my story.  I received $1200 for my '73 Pinto Sedan from the at fault party's insurance.  I was almost stopped for a car wreck on the freeway and was rear-ended at near 60 MPH.  I thank God I only got a tweaked back and neck, but nothing real bad.  The way the car was built is what saved my life.  My car was still running and didn't even lose any glass.  Just crumpled the rear real bad.  The leaf springs took most of the force, they were shaped like a backwards L (have a Mustang II rear end on it with a 3 inch lift).  I have all of my receipts back to 1986.  Sent copies of every single one to the insurance (I think it scared them), along with an entire roll of film (I only had Liability).  I must admit, my car did not have a pristine interior or body on the exterior (a sleeper I guess).  But, I had used my blood, sweat, and tears to keep that baby on the road for 15 years and the engine and entire under carridge and drive train were in excellent condition. I even wrote a letter to the Washington State Insurance Commissioner because the insurance company did not consider my "hourly rate" for repair work to my car, which was probably thousands of dollars.  The letter didn't help, but it may have let the insurance know that I was serious.  I have put over $10,000 into my car.  I bought her back for $25 from the insurance and lost my title.  Well, she is scheduled for the body shop and it will be costing me a pretty penny (I don't do body work) but my car is priceless to me.  You can BET I will get classic car insurance, but I am going to pay whatever it costs because this is my commuter car.  I can definitely understand the heart break, but advise to all, if you love your Pinto, don't let money stop you!!!!!
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

michealsich

sorry to here about the heart break :'(! i to had a simmilar thing happen to me but not as bad i was a senior in high school and i just brought my pinto back from the dead and i loved that car and sure enough a pick up was stopped to turn and it was the middle of january in ne snow on the ground and i went to merge lanes to pass him and got cut of and ended up sliding into the back of that pickup. i was heart broken but it gave me more motive to fullfil my dreams and finish what i started and you should see it now it made the front cover of the calender that this web site put together! so i leave you with this take the money you got and sink it into a project pinto that you and your son can acomplish together and you can make one good lookin' pinto!! :)

jaredone

Just a nother thought, but if you do get hit, my experience is to buy back the car.  had an 80 Gmc "Shorty van"  4.3 auto air etc, cargovan  210,000
miles on it.  Toasted by a deal.  Hard to find a shorty but anyways insurance offered 3800.00 for van, ( i think cause i had alll the oil change stickers on the door)  told them no way, can't find a replacement.  How about I buy the van back? they said okay, hows 3000.00 plus the van, I took the money and the van.  Insurance required a full body integrity saftey done.  I din't have the time so I traded the van to a nieghbour for a wack of carpeting
and I helped with the installation.  I'm happy.  Rob takes the van, and for about 800.00 in used parts has it back on the road, I was sad.   of course
damage time and abilities all come in to play here.

darrel

gawdzuki

I am going to add to this post about insurance.
I have a very good friend who has a 71 240Z. Who had the insight to have an appraisal done by a specialty insurance company, i do not remember the name off the top of my head. But he has done alot of work to this 71 Z car and it is now appraised at 16,000. It also is a car that he drives, or could, on a daily basis. He jokingly says "Only on sunny days" So, I strongly agree with Jeff. If you believe that your car has more money in it than what an average insurance company will pay if it is destroyed ( I hope not) Then Please, Please, Please have it professionally appraised.

  My 2 cents.