Mini Classifieds

Wagon hatch letters
Date: 12/31/2023 04:24 pm
Wagon hatch letters
Date: 12/31/2023 04:24 pm
Various parts for 1980 Pony (good to N.O.S. condition
Date: 06/07/2018 01:45 am
1971-74 Various Pinto Parts
Date: 01/18/2020 03:44 pm
Need 72 pinto parts!
Date: 06/14/2019 01:40 pm
1979 Pinto Sedan Delivery

Date: 06/15/2019 03:30 pm
6.6.75 carrier
Date: 02/14/2018 06:47 am
1976 Squire wagon

Date: 09/12/2018 10:30 pm
1980 Pinto for sale

Date: 11/24/2016 06:32 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 624
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 640
  • Total: 640
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Pitted breaker points

Started by oldcarpierre, July 17, 2006, 09:17:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

oldcarpierre

$500 Canadian.   That is only about 150 to you...
1974 Medium Lime Yellow Pinto Sedan
14000 Miles - Unrestored Original in the garage
2013 Ford Taurus out in the rain

goodolboydws

pierre,

$500 to figure out that you had vacuum leaks from the intake manifold and the base of the carb. and fix them?

Ford dealer or no, it sounds as if you should probably be shopping for a different garage. Now.

A competent and HONEST mechanic would usually be able to HEAR serious vacuum leak(s) on a running engine even without instruments and then be able to track it/them down fairly quickly on a simple 4 cylinder engine such as this one. And without hours of diagnostic time, that's way too much to pay for those vacuum related repairs you mentioned. Or did they do additional work? 

By the way, the resistance on wiring goes up over time, not down. It's the voltage that would have been dropping, not the other way 'round. 

onefarmer

Quote from: oldcarpierre on July 18, 2006, 06:44:35 AM
Pintony,

I had done that in '79.   I had taken one of those resistors encased in ceramic from a late seventies Dodge.   It brought my voltage down to 6 Volts, but then it would not start anymore when cold.   

You most likely installed the resistor just before the coil so the resistor in in the circuit full time. When cranking the voltage would drop even further and not be enough to start. What you needed was to add a resistor bypass curcuit. Normal Batt voltage is about 13.6v reduced to ideally about 7.2 volts to the coil when running. When cranking the Batt voltage drops to maybe 9-10v. If this is reduced further by the resistor it may be as low as 4-6v. Add in the bypass and you get the full 9-10v for starting. 


-------------------------------------
This opinion is worth the amount you paid, Your milage may vary

oldcarpierre

Dear goodoldboysdws

I was way off.   I did not have a breaker points problem (at least it was not my main problem).   It turned out I had a vacuum leak at the carburetor gasket and the intake manifold.   I am $500 poorer, but I am back on the road.

Thanks for the help.
1974 Medium Lime Yellow Pinto Sedan
14000 Miles - Unrestored Original in the garage
2013 Ford Taurus out in the rain

turbopinto72

You could, replace the points with a Mallory, or the likes, Electric distributer conversion kit.This kit would replace the points and would would never have to deal with them again.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

oldcarpierre

Yikes!

Thank you for the info.

I remember hearing about the resistive wire used on Pintos instead of the ballast resistor when I first had this issue with Pinto #1 back in 1979.   Over time, the resistance went down, and the voltage went up.   Not one of Ford's better ideas.

I bought a shop manual earlier today and dropped the Pinto off at my local Ford dealer.   I figured that they would be able to read these instructions without getting a headache.   I am going to try to throw money at it instead.   That definitely sounds like it is over my abilities.

I will let you know how I made out, and how much poorer I am.
1974 Medium Lime Yellow Pinto Sedan
14000 Miles - Unrestored Original in the garage
2013 Ford Taurus out in the rain

goodolboydws

Check this:

(I'm reading through the 1971 Factory Pinto Car Shop Manual, in the ignition section, shortening what they say and paraphrasing. If it seems completely at odds with what you see in yours, good luck.)

Anyway, according to the text, yes, the actual running voltage used in the ignition system is reduced  by means of a RESISTANCE wire  placed in the circuit between the ignition switch and the ignition coil. This circuit is active when the ignition switch is in the RUNNING position, but is bypassed while the ignition switch is in the START position, ths applying full battery voltage for easier engine starting.

In cases where the engine will start but will not run with the switch in the running position, the resistance wire should be checked.  (I think that it makes sense to check it even though yours isn't bad enough to have a serious running problem-yet.)

To test the wire, connect a voltmeter so that it spans the gap when you disconnect the resistance wire coming from the switch, where it attaches to the coil. Now run a GOOD ground wire from the DISTRIBUTOR side of the coil to a GOOD ground.

With all accessories and light off, turn the ignition switch on.

If the voltmeter reading is between 6.6 and 4.5 Volts the resistance wire is ok.

If the voltage reading is greater than 6.6V or less than 4.5V, replace the wire. 

The problem then is to find a correct resistance wire or resistor and to replace the existing one, which may not be easy to do, because of how the old wire is an integral part of the wiring harness. 

In this 1971 manual they are telling you to drill a 1/2" hole in the dash panel (for access) 1" to the left of the centerline of the pad retainer grommet hole and 1" above that same holes' centerline, which puts the new hole on a diagonal between the large squared wiring hole and the pad retainer grommet hole.

The way that they present it, it's fairly involved, but the basic idea is to cut the red/green stripe wire on one side of the main connector, and the red/yellow wire on the side of the ignition wire connector (which is on the steering column, in the passenger compartment), attach BOTH the cut ends of each color wire to a service wire replacement, and then pass the new wire through the hole that you just drilled so that you will be able to connect it.

They go to great pains to tell you not to use anything but the service replacement service wire, and not to loop the resistance wire against itself due to possible heat problems from it's resistance, but I would assume that as long as it is the correct resistance any appropriate resistor could also be used instead if this "special" wire, with it's custom ends, (one of which is removeable, to allow it to pass through the hole, and meant to be used with bullet connectors), is not available.

The part number that they give for the service replacement is: C9AB-12250-A. 

After that is done, then they want you to cut the No. 16 PINK wire near to the printed circuit connector, and insulate both of the cut ends, to isolate the old wire.

I should say that the wiring colors are possibly going to change from one year to another, but the actual bypass technique and connector placement involving this circuit would most likely be similar, if not exact.

A couple more things that they mentioned in this section are:

If the voltage regulator is set incorrectly, it can cause excessive pitting of the points.
Ditto if the radio condenser is installed to the distributor side of the coil .
Ditto if the igniton condenser is the improper capacitance.
Ditto if the engine is operated for an extended period of time "at speeds other than normal", whatever that is.

oldcarpierre

Pintony,

I had done that in '79.   I had taken one of those resistors encased in ceramic from a late seventies Dodge.   It brought my voltage down to 6 Volts, but then it would not start anymore when cold.   I had to run a switch inside the car to bypass the resistor when cold cranking.   A real pain.   The car was destroyed shortly after, so I do not know if it was successful in preventing breaker points pitting.

It has been so long, I don't know where to check for the Voltage going through.   Does anyone know where I need to connect a Volt-meter?
1974 Medium Lime Yellow Pinto Sedan
14000 Miles - Unrestored Original in the garage
2013 Ford Taurus out in the rain

Pintony

Hello oldcarpierre,
Yes add a ballast resister inline to the coil.
From Pintony

oldcarpierre

Back in '79, my first Pinto ('73 2000cc) suffered from a chronic case of pitting breaker points.   I had to replace them every few weeks.   From what I remember, I was getting 13 volts to the coil when cranking, and 11 volts when running (it should be 6 volts when running).   The breaker points would pit in no time.  When they were due to be replaced, the engine would idle roughly.

Fast forward 27 years.   I have driven 750 miles since I picked up the new Pinto in April.   As far as I can tell, it had received a tune up shortly before I bought it and it purred like a kitten.   New spark plugs, wires, filters, etc.   Lately. it has been idling very badly.   I just checked the breaker points, and they are pitted.

Is this something that happens on every 2000cc engine?   Short of replacing breaker points with every third fill-up, is there a more permanent fix?

Thank you.
1974 Medium Lime Yellow Pinto Sedan
14000 Miles - Unrestored Original in the garage
2013 Ford Taurus out in the rain