News:

Changes Continue... Scott Hamilton

Main Menu

Mini Classifieds

Lower Alternator bracket
Date: 08/26/2017 05:11 pm
1979 Ford Pinto for Sale - price reduction

Date: 01/23/2023 02:22 pm
1971 ford pinto items for sale

Date: 08/03/2017 07:40 pm
1979 PINTO PARTS--FREE
Date: 09/13/2022 02:05 pm
Wheel cap
Date: 04/25/2022 11:21 pm
71-73 Hood
Date: 12/07/2018 06:22 pm
1980 Ford AM radio
Date: 12/22/2019 11:57 am
Free ford C3 transmission in 95695..
Date: 06/07/2021 08:14 pm
Various Pinto stuff for sale.
Date: 11/21/2018 01:56 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 1,431
  • Online ever: 2,670 (Yesterday at 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 473
  • Total: 473
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

T-5 install

Started by 77turbopinto, April 04, 2006, 01:38:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

77turbopinto

I installed a Pinto u-joint on the fox-stang driveshaft; the caps the same size on the driveshaft side. The side of the u-joint that bolts to the pinion has larger caps. Yes, the fox one WILL bolt, but it WILL NOT be correct. The front ones are the same part.


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

CHEAPRACER

Let me be a little more clear, I stalled my SVO many times because they used a taller 1st gear ratio and a larger turbo in the early days of the t-5 behind the 4 banger, after lowering 1st gear a bit in the later Turbocoupes and a smaller turbo problem solved, however, they changed the front bearing support due to the larger front bearing. The Jeg's catalog clearly says "fits v-8" but we all assume some times that our t-5 IS the same as the v-8 as I did. I now have a brand new 2 week old steel bearing retainer packed up to go back to Jeg's. My aluminum one was very slightly worn on one side only (wouldn't even snag your fingernail) , since I was doing a complete clutch job I was going to replace it too. Unfortunately I did my research on all this after I bought the parts and wondered why they didn't fit.


The Ford racing drive shaft is the one that fits 79- (93???) fox chassis. You might have to by a special u-joint for the rear which is available at Autozone and the part number is posted somewhere on the forum.

You may also polish your aluminum driveshaft to make it shiny, and reuse the factory yoke so you can still use the thingy. :lol:
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

turbopinto72

Quote from: UltimatePinto on September 13, 2006, 10:51:59 AM
Hi Jim,

On that aluminum Ford Race driveshaft, do you have a part number or availability?  I suppose it's on the Ford Racing site?

Would it be the same one that I mentioned in the Jeg's catalog?

If the overall length is good, I would like to see about getting one.

Thanx for the info.

Al

You can also get them from Summit
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

77turbopinto

Quote from: turbopinto72 on September 13, 2006, 09:11:00 AM
Maybe we should change form "Shiny" to " Thingy"....... ;D

I try not to get too technical sometimes. If I had to choose a name for it, and could only pick from "thingy" "shiny" and "vibration dampener" I would have to choose the one that fits best: THINGY.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

gearhead440

Quote from: CHEAPRACER on September 12, 2006, 10:23:35 PM

I just went through the same thing, The t-5 4 cylinder later modelTurbo Coupes used a lower 1st gear which increased the front bearing diameter, The v-8 bearing supports WILL NOT fit. If youv'e ever owned an early model or the SVO, trust me, this was a needed change. I must have stalled mine out a dozen times or more. There is a company that makes an aluminum one, I found it by using alot of different google searches but used my original one instead as it wasn't that bad, I think it was about 48.00. The drive shaft yokes from the two are the same, I droped a Ford Racing aluminum driveshaft right in and it includes the yoke.


definition: harmonic balancer, due to the different rotatating speeds of the drive shaft and the engine when in overdrive. I sent my '88 LX 5.0 shaft in to be rebalanced and they removed it completly, 150k later there was still no difference without it.

Input shaft pilot bearing diameter and there might be some different lenghths involved in the 90's years, I know the bell housing lenghth varies.

I'm slightly confused on the V8 bearing support and stalling - can someone enlighten me?  I guess the bottom line question is whether or not to replace the bearing retainer or if stock will work well enough?

It sounds like I can use the C4 drive shaft yoke for the T5 output shaft and it will work fine - no big thingy is required for the drive shaft to go roundy-roundy .

Yes, the front-most tip of the input shaft is slightly smaller in diameter than the V8 and requires a pilot bearing with smaller diameter hole.  The SVO input shaft is also approx 0.3 inches longer than the V8 shaft.
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?

UltimatePinto

Hi Jim,

On that aluminum Ford Race driveshaft, do you have a part number or availability?  I suppose it's on the Ford Racing site?

Would it be the same one that I mentioned in the Jeg's catalog?

If the overall length is good, I would like to see about getting one.

Thanx for the info.

Al

turbopinto72

Maybe we should change form "Shiny" to " Thingy"....... ;D
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

77turbopinto

Quote from: gearhead440 on September 11, 2006, 08:44:06 AM
...yoke with a large harmonic balancer ...

Quote from: 77turbopinto on September 11, 2006, 09:28:57 AM
...yes it too has the big thingy on the yoke...


Quote from: UltimatePinto on September 12, 2006, 06:43:48 AM
...By "the big thingie" do you mean the collar by the yoke that I've seen on some drive shafts?...

Quote from: 77turbopinto on September 12, 2006, 06:56:30 AM
...Yes on the thingy...

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

CHEAPRACER

QuoteI tried using their steel (Jeg's),housing for the throw out bearing slide once and my bearing was too small for it. I suppose that it was because it was for the V-8 applications. Am not sure if I'd run into the same problem with the driveshaft. Are the output shafts different from four to eight cylinder applications?


I just went through the same thing, The t-5 4 cylinder later modelTurbo Coupes used a lower 1st gear which increased the front bearing diameter, The v-8 bearing supports WILL NOT fit. If youv'e ever owned an early model or the SVO, trust me, this was a needed change. I must have stalled mine out a dozen times or more. There is a company that makes an aluminum one, I found it by using alot of different google searches but used my original one instead as it wasn't that bad, I think it was about 48.00. The drive shaft yokes from the two are the same, I droped a Ford Racing aluminum driveshaft right in and it includes the yoke.

QuoteYes on the thingy.

definition: harmonic balancer, due to the different rotatating speeds of the drive shaft and the engine when in overdrive. I sent my '88 LX 5.0 shaft in to be rebalanced and they removed it completly, 150k later there was still no difference without it.

QuoteI never had a v8 t5 but I have seen a bunch of posts that the input shaft is different in some way.

Input shaft pilot bearing diameter and there might be some different lenghths involved in the 90's years, I know the bell housing lenghth varies.
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

earthquake

The imput shaft is longer on the v8 trans
73 sedan parts car,80 crusin wagon conversion,76 F 250 460 SCJ,74 Ranchero 4x4,88 mustang lx convertable,and the readheaded step child 86 uhhh Chevy 4x4(Sorry guys it was cheap)

77turbopinto

I will double check it, but from what I remember the OD was smaller on the c-3 yoke. Mine might have been worn and/or I might be wrong.

Yes on the thingy.

I never had a v8 t5 but I have seen a bunch of posts that the input shaft is different in some way.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

UltimatePinto

Hi Bill,

Have used the driveshaft off a 75 auto on my 72 application and had it on the road for a short while before I started with my new engine.

Have it apart now and I can't see any abnormal wear on the splines on the output shaft nor feel anything wrong with the splines inside the yoke.

By "the big thingie" do you mean the collar by the yoke that I've seen on some drive shafts? 

I realize that just because it fits, (or seems to), that it doesn't necessarily make it right.  How are the yokes different?

The length is fine. I've seen shaft assemblies in the Jeg's catalog in the Mustang section. I wonder if they would do.

I tried using their steel (Jeg's),housing for the throw out bearing slide once and my bearing was too small for it. I suppose that it was because it was for the V-8 applications. Am not sure if I'd run into the same problem with the driveshaft. Are the output shafts different from four to eight cylinder applications?

I saw your ride in June and would like to come up and see your other projects before the snow flies. Have done nothing with my ride as I'm up to my neck with another project.

Al


turbopinto72

In my 289 car with a 9" and c4 I used a Mustang drive shaft and it was the propper length.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

77turbopinto

The Pinto driveshafts for different trannies and rears are different lengths.

The yoke from a c3 WILL fit into the t-5, BUT it is NOT the same and SHOLUD NOT BE USED. I do have a driveshaft from a stangII with a v6, c4, 8", but I did not see if it was the same (don't hink it is).

I am using a driveshaft form a 85ish Stang GT turbo, and yes it too has the big thingy on the yoke.

With the 9" rear and V8 setup, I don't know how long of a drveshaft you will need.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

gearhead440

When installing your T-5, did you reuse your existing yoke (C4 I'm going to guess) or did you use a yoke from a T-5 drive shaft?  I'm doing a T-5 swap and have a T-5 yoke with a large harmonic balancer and I'm wondering if a regular C4 yoke will work just as well.  Thanks!
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?

77turbopinto

I have the details posted in two other threads, but the reason for the drop is without some modification somewhere, the stock efi intake will make contact with the hood.


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

swinklksd

I raced a pinto for a while but have just bought a stock '72 and am restoring it. Pardon my ignorance, but why did you drop your motor and tranny? Center of Gravity? I haven't seen it done.

Thanks,
js

earthquake

I did my t-5 swap about 3 yrs ago,we used the trans mount from the 86 svo mustang angles seem to be correct and the only mod is you may have to slot the holes in the pinto crossmember.
73 sedan parts car,80 crusin wagon conversion,76 F 250 460 SCJ,74 Ranchero 4x4,88 mustang lx convertable,and the readheaded step child 86 uhhh Chevy 4x4(Sorry guys it was cheap)

2point3turbo

I am putting in the turbo engine next month and woul love any info I might need to complete the job the right way. I also want to install the T5. Thanks to all you wonderful Pinto lovers. This site is awsome.
Must have more POWER!!!! Gimmee Gimmee Gimmee!!

77turbopinto

I just used the modified bracket I had in it, but spun it around. The stock bracket has the holes offset ot one side, and when you spin it, the holes are on the wrong side. I took good measurments before I did the swap so I was able to put the yoke almost where it was. Yes, It is just a matter of slotting the holes. The shifter plate that bolts to the top of the tranny is about 1/2" below the tunnel and the rubber part is sticking though the hole. I cut the hole forward to the edge of the rib in the floor in front of the hole, turned the stock boot 90* (other wise the mount bolts will hit the tranny)and installed it like ford did.

You just need to get up here and look.

Bill

Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

UltimatePinto

Hey Bill,
I just elongated the holes in a mount the I got from a 75 automatic in my current 72 Runabout project. Also used the driveshaft and hooked it up to my 8" rear.
Everything seems to be in line OK. It drove well when I had it on the road last.
How far out of align are we talking here?  Is vertical, horizontal or both?

Al

77turbopinto

Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

77turbopinto

I all goes well, I will be intalling the t-5 tomorrow. I have all the parts, plus the pedals and cable are in the car. The carpet is out as well. I will take some pics along the way.

One thing I need to address is the tranny mount flange is in a different location on the t-5. I knew this, but it can throw off the pinion angle if not addressed. My engine and tranny are dropped, so I will need to really take the time to alline it. I plan to make my tranny mount bracket adjustable (modify a stock one), and not use the one that I modified for the stock tranny drop.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.