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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

using Granada front disk brakes AND caliper mounting bracket?

Started by russosborne, September 16, 2017, 01:05:29 AM

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dick1172762

Look again. There is a chart down the page that list 99% of all makes. There is 3 tigers shown at $74000  / $90000 / $116000.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

Hummm..., I only found one Alpine and no Tigers.  And at $10K it was more than three times what I paid for the Tiger ($3,500) back in 2000. Could never afford one today. My near basket case would probable sell for $20K-$25K.  On jackstands for almost 18 years now. My mid-life crisis car has become my retirement car and at the speed it is going it way well be come my "you have cancer, what do you want to accomplish before you die car" (hopefully not anytime soon).

dick1172762

Take a look at  http://www.hotrodhotline.com   several Sunbeam's for sale from $4895 to $116000. Enjoy!
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dick1172762

Best way to store old tires is inside a large black trash bag, tightly closed, in a cool basement, away from any kind of electric motor.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

My Tiger came with a set of somewhat rare 13" Cosmic wheels.  There is but ONE Harrington Tiger (fastback) and that car is adorned with those wheels. So, I'd like to use them. A quick search brought up some 205-60-13" so they are still available. But they are Federal Formoza's and the like in the $45-$60 range (less shipping). Otherwise it is $150+ for autocross tires!


I have an odd lot collection of 13" tires.  Sumitumo HTR 200's (2- 205-60-13", 3 - 175-70-13") and in the Federal Formoza (3- 205-60-13"). I've picked them up for right about $10 ea. but being used and a perishable item my keeping them out of the sun and slathering them liberally with Armour All only does so good.


The Pinto has a bit more of a generous wheel well to accommodate a larger tire but I agree on the 15" wheel.  Maybe it is just our generation but the too large wheel and the too short aspect ratio just doesn't look right on older cars.  It is why I don't like a lot of the Foose/Overhaul'n cars. As far as the Tiger's go I still think the 13" wheels look best. It is all about proportion.   There is a guy here with a red Pinto that has the Ford factory steel 15" SSP wheels. I really liked the look but those wheels are RARE. And I found out he had to run a lot of spacer to get them to look right.  I found a 14" look a like version but on the Pinto (215-60-14") the offset was terrible and I know now the reason for the spacers.  Good news is they fit the Tiger well. Like I said it is all about proportion.

Pintosopher

Quote from: Wittsend on September 27, 2017, 05:35:23 PM
Fitment is all about clearances at the suspension and fender openings. You can have a tall 14", 75 series tire and have as much an issue as a 17" tire with a 40 (or less) series tire.  The problem that you will have with the latter is that Dick and I will groan about the wagon wheel sized rim with the forklift like aspect ratio tires.  LOL
Although I can see the relativity of the brake/lug pattern dilemma, I too will groan at anything over 15 inch.  :-[ When will the folks offer the 13" tires affordably from across the Pond?  A good friend even re-arched the front fenders on his Sunbeam Tiger to clear 13X8 3 piece Revolution wheels with chunky tires and to miss the tie rod knuckle for Solo 2 street prepared back in the 80's. The Back was going to 13X10's and a mild fender flare roll.
Even my 72 has the inner fender liner seam rolled back to clear my tires that I used on the street...
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Wittsend

Quote from: Rawdawg510 on September 27, 2017, 12:19:40 PM
I am planning on going with 17 inch wheels, im not sure if Ill run into this problem?

Fitment is all about clearances at the suspension and fender openings. You can have a tall 14", 75 series tire and have as much an issue as a 17" tire with a 40 (or less) series tire.  The problem that you will have with the latter is that Dick and I will groan about the wagon wheel sized rim with the forklift like aspect ratio tires.  LOL

Rawdawg510

Quote from: dick1172762 on September 26, 2017, 09:00:56 AM
What I should have also said was this was only on race cars and not cars driven on city streets. By using the entire spindle / caliper / rotor / assy /  you will end up with the upper control arm at an greater angle than stock and while ok on a race track, who knows if used on the street. Upper ball joint could make a clearance problem with the wheels or tires, maybe both. Sorry!

I am planning on going with 17 inch wheels, im not sure if Ill run into this problem?
1965 Ford falcon
1971 Ford Maverick
1971 Ford Pinto
2017 Ford Fusion Sport

dick1172762

On 74 and up Pintos, power brakes were fitted to some Pintos / V8 Mustang II / and maybe 6 cylinder Pintos and Mustang II. I've hade 16 Pintos and not one of them had power brakes. Back in the 70's I always though that the power brakes were like lipstick on a pig. I raced 70's and 80's Pinto with no problems at all. The trick was getting the right pads. Once done, you had very good brakes. 74/80 Pintos had much better brakes than the 71/73 models. Trick was the right pads and good brake cooling on the track. Brake fluid was always Castrol LMA that never caused brake problems. Fluid was cheap at Auto Zone.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

Recently we had an interesting discussion over on my Sunbeam Tiger side of life.  It regarded the upgrading of the stock Tiger brakes.  The argument stemmed around the fact that there are really two elements involved in braking. The brakes and the tires.  The point was presented that if the brakes could be made to lock up that the tires became the limiting factor in stopping the car. Hence, improving the brakes benefited nothing.  Where as repeated braking causes fade and thus an upgrade compensated for the generated heat in typical street applications it was not likely to be a problem.

If all that were true (I'm not taking either side, just presenting the points made) what the average driver really needs to better brake feel rather that overall braking capability. And that comes about with a proper cylinder diameter and booster.  I find it interesting that my daily driver (2000 Mazda Protege) seemingly has brakes no bigger than the Pinto and is likely in a similar weight category, if not heavier than the Pinto.  Yet it is the best stopping car I have ever owned. In that regard it is significantly better than my wife's 2010 Civic.

Question, were any of the early Pinto's fitted with boosted brakes?  I'll be the first to admit that my non-boosted '73 (disc front) brake seem very marginal. But, I'm wondering if the lack of a booster is the greater problem?

dick1172762

What I should have also said was this was only on race cars and not cars driven on city streets. By using the entire spindle / caliper / rotor / assy /  you will end up with the upper control arm at an greater angle than stock and while ok on a race track, who knows if used on the street. Upper ball joint could make a clearance problem with the wheels or tires, maybe both. Sorry!
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Rawdawg510

I found this thread and Dick1172762 said that you can use the spindle/caliper/brackets with ball joint upgrades. can anyone please confirm this??

http://www.fordpinto.com/pinto-faq/front-disc-brakes-(4-5-lug)/
1965 Ford falcon
1971 Ford Maverick
1971 Ford Pinto
2017 Ford Fusion Sport

russosborne

Quote from: Rawdawg510 on September 22, 2017, 12:34:47 AM
I just looked at speedway website and found these 5 lug rotors that are a direct fit to the stock 74 -80 mustang 2/ pinto spindle. Could it be this simple.

Of course in my case I would have to buy everything separately since I have the 71.(74 spindle,calipers,brake pads,caliper brackets,and hose? And of course the rotors in the link below). Too bad they don't have a direct fit stock size rotor for my car. I already have disc up front but there is no wheel selection for 4 lug. Hope this helps. It's getting kind of late I will look more into pricing and availability for the 74 stuff tomorrow.


https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mustang-II-Disc-Brake-Rotor-5-on-4-1-2-Inch,1964.html

Nope, not that simple for you, unfortunately. Early Pinto (71-73) and the Mustang II/later Pinto front suspension is not a bolt on swap. There have been several  posts on here about it. Simplest way is to swap the crossmembers so you can use the MII stuff, but even then I've heard there are issues. There has been some mention of modifying the newer spindles, but it just isn't an easy thing to do. One way to do it is to buy a 74 Pinto and convert the sheet metal over to the earlier stuff, but you still end up having to do a ton of work.

those speedway motor rotors are good for those of us with the 74 and up cars. I was planning on using them to just convert to the 5 lug as that is a stupid cheap and easy way to do it, but then I talked myself into needing larger brakes with my planned engine. Some people don't see the need, but I believe in overkill. Or better safe than sorry. 

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Pintosopher

Quote from: dick1172762 on September 23, 2017, 04:52:31 PM
   Wheels and rotors are not the problem anymore! Tires or the lack of 13" tires are the big problem now days. I bought the last set of 205/60/13 tires I could find in the US of A. I have read that 13" tires are still made in Mexico and England but getting them here is an high $$$$ problem. Any body out there have an answer?
I have a used set of  vintage 205/60 -13 Yokohama 001R that I bought in 1988, some miles of Solo 2 . I took em off to run slicks in E/Prepared. I'm sure they are Waaaay hard now. Bagged since summer '88, but was going to use for street car.. Ahh!!!  good intentions and the road to Hell You know ;D
Old Shoes and tired riders live in my barnyard ::)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

Try  http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/library/library.htm   look at ( various wheel bolt patterns.) It's old but still shows what to look far in the late 80's before all went to FWD.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dick1172762

Quote from: Wittsend on September 22, 2017, 11:29:48 AM
Given that I have two sets of Pinto/Mustang II Rallye wheels, a set of classic Cosmic wheels, a set of Mustang SSP lookalike wheels and lastly a set of 90's alloy wheels - all in the 4 X 4.25 bolt, the 5 bolt offerings don't interest me.  The fact that all these wheels match the bolt pattern of my Sunbeam Tiger... makes the 5 bolt even less so.

I wonder if Speedway will do a special drilled set for not too much more?  My understanding is that the 108mm bolt pattern is very close.  Maybe there is something in that size that works for those desiring to retain the 4 X 4.25 pattern.  I believe there is a rear disc conversion for the Tiger that used Fiat discs.
Wheels and rotors are not the problem anymore! Tires or the lack of 13" tires are the big problem now days. I bought the last set of 205/60/13 tires I could find in the US of A. I have read that 13" tires are still made in Mexico and England but getting them here is an high $$$$ problem. Any body out there have an answer?
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dick1172762

All the 5 stud rotors that I have seen are 4.5 (ford) and 4.75 (Chevrolet). Those bolt patterns fit 99% of the street rod cars.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

65ShelbyClone

A Pinto/MII/Granada rotor with a 5 x 4.25" circle (if they exist, haven't looked) might have the possibility of being redrilled. That will leave about 0.150-0.165" between two close holes.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

dick1172762

American wheels has a 15 X 7 sloted mag in the 4 x 41/4 bolt pattern. Very nice wheels. They also make the same wheel in the 5 X 41/2 bolt pattern.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

Given that I have two sets of Pinto/Mustang II Rallye wheels, a set of classic Cosmic wheels, a set of Mustang SSP lookalike wheels and lastly a set of 90's alloy wheels - all in the 4 X 4.25 bolt, the 5 bolt offerings don't interest me.  The fact that all these wheels match the bolt pattern of my Sunbeam Tiger... makes the 5 bolt even less so.

I wonder if Speedway will do a special drilled set for not too much more?  My understanding is that the 108mm bolt pattern is very close.  Maybe there is something in that size that works for those desiring to retain the 4 X 4.25 pattern.  I believe there is a rear disc conversion for the Tiger that used Fiat discs.

Rawdawg510

I just looked at speedway website and found these 5 lug rotors that are a direct fit to the stock 74 -80 mustang 2/ pinto spindle. Could it be this simple.

Of course in my case I would have to buy everything separately since I have the 71.(74 spindle,calipers,brake pads,caliper brackets,and hose? And of course the rotors in the link below). Too bad they don't have a direct fit stock size rotor for my car. I already have disc up front but there is no wheel selection for 4 lug. Hope this helps. It's getting kind of late I will look more into pricing and availability for the 74 stuff tomorrow.


https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mustang-II-Disc-Brake-Rotor-5-on-4-1-2-Inch,1964.html
1965 Ford falcon
1971 Ford Maverick
1971 Ford Pinto
2017 Ford Fusion Sport

65ShelbyClone

I don't know about elsewhere, but no parts store here stocks Granada-specific parts. GM calipers, OTOH, were on the shelf at my local O'Relly's. That same store used to stock plenty of nothing until they ran out. I still ordered it all from Rock Auto, though. Cost 70% less and came in two days.

I really, really wanted to keep it all Ford. The steep uphill battle required to do that made me realize that there are very practical reasons for not.

I'll be tackling my front brakes this weekend, so I'll probably have something to report regarding how it went.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

russosborne

Yeah, life would be too simple if the vintage Mustang disk brakes (or even drums) worked on our cars. But I imagine if they did we'd all have heard about it before now. The Granada spindles on the Mustang does require a special adapter for the tie rods unless you use the larger Granada tie rods. (I miss my old 69 Coupe project car  :'(  )

I'm sure the reason there isn't any 4 lug patterns for kits for our cars is that the MII kits are really meant for the street rodders. The fact that they fit our cars (if you have a 74-up) is just a bonus for us.

I was hoping the Granada calipers would work so I didn't have to remember a bunch of different cars when I need new parts. Easier if I could just say "78 Granada" and have the front brakes covered. At my age I will need to keep a list of all the donor cars and what parts they donated.  :o  I intend to have everything replaceable from the local auto store. Biggest reason (other than cost) that the Wilwood and other kits don't interest me. Summit Racing is not a 40 mile trip anymore.  ;D

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Wittsend

Quote from: Rawdawg510 on September 21, 2017, 09:24:29 AM
I have a question, will the spindle from a Granada fit?? If so can't we just use the entire setup? If not why can't we use the spindle??

You might be able to answer that yourself. I note that you have a '65 Falcon.  My understanding was that the Granada set up was a bolt in for the Mustang/Falcon etc.  So, if you notice a strong similarity between the Falcon and the Pinto spindle (height, ball joints etc.) the possibility increases.  My guess is, "No." It has not come up in the 10 years that I've been here.

From what I see of the Speedway kit being around $250 and you get new "everything" it seems pretty reasonable. And I say that being notorious for being CHEAP.  Too bad there doesn't seem to be 4 X 4.25 kit.  Strange because that is the native bolt pattern for the system it is built off of.

Rawdawg510

I have a question, will the spindle from a Granada fit?? If so can't we just use the entire setup? If not why can't we use the spindle??
1965 Ford falcon
1971 Ford Maverick
1971 Ford Pinto
2017 Ford Fusion Sport

russosborne

I really don't know.
The OP in the thread from the MII site that said he did that only posted 3 times, and all over 3 years ago. He never followed up with how he did it, so I can't be sure if he was correct.
It was the MII spindle with the Granada caliper and bracket in his post.

Sounds like it will just be easier to buy a kit. Twenty years ago it might have been a different story.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: russosborne on September 17, 2017, 01:33:40 AM
My main interest would be if using the Granada caliper mounting brackets would work. I'd be using new for everything else.

I just held one of my GM caliper brackets up to a Granada spindle and they're pretty far away from fitting. They mount in similar ways, but the Granada stuff is all a lot bigger. Maybe the Granada caliper fits in an MII caliper bracket? I don't know.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

russosborne

You're probably right. I am so used to seeing Granada's everywhere, but around here at least they are still being driven.

My main interest would be if using the Granada caliper mounting brackets would work. I'd be using new for everything else.

This sounds just like my big brake dilemma for my 72 Ranchero. Easy swap is to use 72 ONLY Ford Thunderbird 12 inch rotors and caliper mounting brackets, the Ranchero calipers are kept. However, finding the mounting brackets is impossible now, and even the rotors are very scarce and extremely expensive ($150 - 200 each, at least) new. One year only stuff. I could change my spindles to the 73-up Torino/Ranchero ones and then there are other options, but I didn't/don't want to do that.
The ideal thing with the 72 Tbird swap is that year is still the 5x4.5 lug pattern. Most other options require going to the 5x5 lug pattern, and I won't do that.

I tend to find out about/want to do these things when it is too late.  :(

For the Ranchero I will most likely just look into better pads while still hoping to find the Tbird stuff at some point. The Pinto is probably going to end up with the Speedway kit, I've been pricing it out individually on different sites and it just makes more sense to buy the complete kit with the hoses included. Not too much more than the individual components and I'd still have to come up with the hoses. With the plan being a 351C engine, I NEED better brakes.  ;D

I just really like to keep things all Ford, but it isn't always possible.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Wittsend

I think part of the problem is that the last Granada manufactured was 38 model years ago in 1980 (the 81-82 Granada's are Fox body).  And they only had a 5 year run. The whole Granada disc brake upgrade was actually big with the Falcon/Comet/Mustang people who wanted discs and 5 bolts.  The past 20 years or so there was hardly a Granada found (and I hardly found a Granada) at a self serve yard that didn't have the pieces already taken.  So, mix together a short 5 year run, with 38-43 year old models and a high desire for the parts and I believe the word is (near) "Unobtanium."  Also at that age the rotors might be too far gone to turn, the bearings shot and calipers corroded.

I just went to Row 52 which searches 103 yards and 110,000+ vehicles. There was not one Granada listed within 500 miles of Phoenix. So, there is your answer right there.  Of course one has to actually have a running car for the brakes to be of any real use.  But it is better to know now (the limited availability of Granada parts) than to expect to find them later.

russosborne

I have searched, but didn't find an answer to my questions below. But then I am an idiot, so I may have missed it.  :o

On a 74, so same as MII.

I came across this on the Mustang  II Tech site, but couldn't find any other information on using the Granada calipers. And yes, I am stealing this quote from there.  ;D I can't find my old user id to post there, plus I am not sure how active that place is anymore. And this post was several years old.

"If you are interested in the 5 lug wheels, you can upgrade to Granada brakes, and get 5 lugs at the same time. I did this on my 1976 coupe, that I had before the Cobra. You need the Granada discs with bearings , from a wrecking yard, and the brake mounting brackets. Your Mustang calipers will fit the brackets, or you can use the Granada calipers. You will need larger wheels, but that is the point of the 5 lug upgrade, to go bigger than the 13 inch wheel. I might do this on the Cobra, I have seen a Monarch in the pick-a part yard. It should have the Granada type brakes. You will need to use the Granada brake pads."

Question I have is has anyone done this using all the Granada parts? I've seen several posts where it mentions using an aftermarket mounting bracket and a metric GM caliper, not wanting to do that if I don't have to. The Speedway kit I have planned on getting does use the GM metric calipers. Obviously the author of the post I am quoting didn't mention if he had to make any changes to use the Granada mounts.

Current plan is to get the Speedway motors kit, but if I can do this using all Granada parts that would be more fun. And cheaper most likely. Also easier to remember what to get when replacement time comes around.

Somehow I am doubting this is that easy, or else why are the adapters being sold to use the GM calipers?

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.