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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

RIP OLD FRIEND

Started by dick1172762, December 08, 2015, 08:52:19 AM

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74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

Facebook is the difference and the reason for the low post numbers on the Pinto site. Also the Studebakers tend to be more of a collector car than a Pinto. Few people on here are planning to make their Pinto a collector item.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

74 PintoWagon

More people like Studebakers than Pintos I guess???..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Wittsend

Getting back to the theme of the original post:

I did a comparison to another car site I frequent. Going back the past two days I see the PCCA had an average of 5 post per day. Over at the Studebaker Drivers Club they had an average of 30 posts per day - and that was only at their three most popular sections. The SDC like the PCCA has a similar site arrangement but to keep the numbers manageable I only selected their most popular sections.  At the PCCA the "Recent" posts display the accounting of all sections. Advantage Pinto (as all post are counted).

While I realize that a post can cycle many times in a given day it is my observation that it is far more likely to occur at the SDC than the PCCA. Thus, the numbers would be even more heavily favored towards the SDC if that was a considered factor. Since that would require significant more work to calculate I'll use the numbers that are far easier to count. Advantage Pinto.

Is it fair to compare the two sites?

  Here are the numbers. Pinto's were manufactured over ten years and 3,173,000 were built (rounded to the thousand).  Over the last ten years of Studebaker production there were only 638,000 built.  Roughly 20% of the Pinto production.  Over at the Studebaker site the overwhelming discussion is for 1950 and newer (to 1966) cars. So, even adding in another seven years of Studebaker production (1,780,000) the "typically discussed" production numbers still fall short of the Pinto total by nearly half. Advantage Pinto.

The last Studebaker was manufactured in 1966. The last Pinto was manufactured in 1980. A 14 year difference. Considering the closeness of last manufacture date and enthusiast still likely living the advantage falls to the Pinto.

Also an advantage to the Pinto is the manufacture (Ford) never went out of business.  And a number of Pinto parts (2.3 engines in particular) were manufactured long after the Pinto production ceased.  Advantage Pinto.

So, I'm left to wonder why the Pinto community with nearly double the number of manufactured cars during pertinent years (80% more over the last 10 years of manufacture), later production ceasing date, likely more living enthusiasts, and a continuing parts source after manufacture has less than 20% of the site activity at the Studebaker site?   If all the "numbers" favoring the Pinto carried over then the Pinto community should overwhelm the activity of the Studebaker community on their respective websites.

This is not a question to those who run the PCCA.  We are all indebted to their effort. Rather this is a question the the greater Pinto community. I'm not making an indictment, but rather I'm curious to understand the difference.

robertwwithee

Wow, @4pinto.  I do pinto and turbo dodges as well.  I thought it was just me that liked those cars.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


r4pinto

I frequent facebook since it's easier for me and get alerts for the Pinto site on there. I some times look and reply to posts on there, some times don't. When it comes to it I go in spurts. Life keeps me busy, especially since the Pinto constantly takes a back seat to other projects, whether it be fixing the house for an appraisal, working on my Dodge Omni GLH-T, or even trying to get my Dad's 2004 Impala back on the road. Currently I'm trying to fix the Impala so I can use it for a daily driver, and get rid of my Sonic. Doesn't mean I don't think of the site and think of going on.

The big thing... When I leave and come back I notice more and more people I dealt with have gone away. Now could they be busy and doing the same thing I do when it comes to life? Very possible. Just too much to do and not enough time to give everything.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Wittsend

Dwayne, it does seem most people have a Pinto story.  Since I got mine in 2007 I had so many people say..., "I used to... ."  When I think back my step-sister had one, and each of my two younger brothers also. In fact one of the brothers had three. Since my motivation was a place to put my existing Turbo Coupe drivetrain I guess I never gave that lineage any thought.  I too hear about dwindling numbers at the Studebaker site (though they have SIGNIFICANT activity). But all personality issues aside they aren't making them anymore, attrition is removing them and those with a linkage are dying off.  What do they expect? That wars will be fought over Studebaker acquisition?

Dick (thanks), have been to the Ratsun site and am actually register there - though I only have a few posts. From what I've seen it was a decent site.  The Datsun was given to me by a friend 18 years ago after it sat in his yard for 16 years. Hanging out in his 510 was the only 'cool' thing about me back in the 70's.  I had it on the road at the start of the new millennium but frankly it is a handful to be a daily driver and with my total fleet size I can only manage a few registered/insured cars at a time.

Picture of the 510 circa 2000's (and prior). Note the bumper, it is off the Tiger. I needed something to hang the plate on, and it fit.

Pintosopher

As a Seasoned ( read that Crusty Curmudgeon) Member, I've seen a lot of people come and go with this site. I've endured wonder and derision from people in the real world about "why a Pinto?" in racing. Most of them have no idea, and have been conditioned that only high end German or legendary Japanese cars were worthy of the efforts and expense in the competition world. So , That being said, it's not surprising that a new generation of youth find the unique value of this car and the rare sight of one that's either Original, Modified or All out racing. Vintage racing and show competition is alive and well because of a new wave of interest in cars that don't fit the cookie cutter stereotypes. It goes in cycles, and the interest is rising in these cars.
So if someone doesn't "feel the Love" then the answer to the perceived insult (real or imagined) may lie in the person at the Keyboard. People with a inability to self diagnose or improve through humility are usually the ones really bent. Walk softly, type with disgression , and attach the image of yourself you wish to be seen as . 
Two Eyes to see, Two Ears to hear, Two Hands to type , one Button to " Send" Of course,  it's your club , make it better every Day ;)

Pintosopher, OBD 0 in the real world, Analog when it counts, Holding the digital "Bird",  prisoner in its Cage daily ;D
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

Take a look at ratsun.net forum for some good tech and many great pictures of all kinds of cars.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dga57

Quote from: Wittsend on January 21, 2016, 12:38:27 PM
I truly think that you are correct. Not to be self (and collectively) denigrating, but frankly to the outside world the Pinto is a joke.  It was a car that people originally bought when they couldn't afford anything else.  It was the Rambler of the 70's generation. Throw in the  flaming accusations (pun intended)  and things only got worse.


I frequent a Studebaker site. There are good resources and some wonderful people there. But there is also an underlying aspect of authoritative one upmanship.  Where people will incessantly argue over the smallest things.  One time I cautioned a poster that new, later model windshields were nearly impossible to find. I got reprimanded (in a "Who do you think you are" kind of way) for saying so and then two available sources were linked.  Well, after numerous tries one place never even answered the phone and had no web site.  I later found they they were basically no longer in business. The other place said they had ONE in stock. I inquired if they were going to be able to get any more. Her reply was, "Not likely." I then said, "So, this is probably the last windshield available - ever," And she said, "Most likely so." That is a far cry from the stated reprimand "We ALWAYS get windshields from..."  Anyway, that is just an example of treatment I have never had at the PCCA. We don't always agree here, but we seem to keep it more civil than most.


You're right; the Pinto was viewed as a joke... but did you ever encounter anyone who DOESN'T have a Pinto story of some sort?  I bought my first Pinto (orange '74 Runabout) new when I was sixteen, primarily because my father refused to allow me to buy "somebody else's problem" and insisted my ride had to be brand new.  He was a Ford man all his life, so my meager budget = Pinto.  I never expected that purchase 42 years ago to ignite the emotional connection to Pintos that it has, or that in 2016, approaching my 59th birthday, I would still own a Pinto.  Go figure!

My worst car club experience ever was with the RROC (Rolls-Royce Owners Club) and was instrumental in the decision to part ways with my Silver Spur.  My $100 per year membership got me a nice magazine publication (The Flying Lady) and that's about it.  If I dared to ask a question on their forum, I was met with condescending, snobbish answers.  It absolutely took all the joy out of owning the car.  The ironic thing is that their most vocalized concern was why their membership was dwindling.  Maintaining an automobile of that complexity without knowledgeable assistance and no dealer support (RR dealerships no longer support the Crewe cars) is nearly impossible.  There seems to be no one moderating their forum, or they would KNOW why members are deserting.  My feeling toward the club became such that I didn't even want to offer my car for sale to its members, which would have definitely yielded the best price.  Instead, I traded it in on a Jaguar XJL Supercharged and never looked back.  I have both dealership support and a warranty now, but I decided to join the Jaguar Forums anyway and, so far, have found it to be a pleasant experience. 

In my opinion, the PCCA is about as good as it gets when it comes to online car clubs, and I'm proud to be a part of it.

Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

65ShelbyClone

Does your wagon have a black or tan interior? And some screws holding the lower windshield chrome on?

Quote from: LongTimeFordMan on January 21, 2016, 07:33:25 PM
also, whats with the security questions about the year that a 1971 pinto was made.. wasn't production started in 1970 for the 71 models?

It's to keep spam bots from automatically registering accounts. So far they are not advanced enough to answer questions or identify specific image content.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

LongTimeFordMan

i just joined and am excited to find a source like this...

i do it and have a lot of connectivity, but dont have myface or spacebook due to the security issues.

I'm an ole fart and remember when 55 thunderbirds were new, most folks raced flatheads, and only the rich kids had new fangled mustangs..

over the years ive had lots of fords from a 35 sedan to a 36 coupe to many 55 wagons, a falcon sprint and sunbeam tiger.

for the last 20 years I've been restoring mgb's

i recently relocated to dallas from so cal and have been looking for get togethers with pinto folks here.

when i came to texas i started looking for a small, simple, reliable, easy to maintain car and luckily found my pinto in Bakersfield, Ca.

this is my second pinto, the first was a 72 wagon bought new in 72.

hopefully my present one will last long enough to butt along to my grandson some day.

I think forums like this are very important to keep the historical aspects of auto history alive and are a great way to exchange DETAILED info and tips.

too bad more events can't be arranged for get togethers or rallys.

also, whats with the security questions about the year that a 1971 pinto was made.. wasn't production started in 1970 for the 71 models?
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Wittsend

Quote from: fordblue72 on January 21, 2016, 10:35:27 AM
Maybe because its simple and not trying to be something its not. Kinda like the PCCA.

I truly think that you are correct. Not to be self (and collectively) denigrating, but frankly to the outside world the Pinto is a joke.  It was a car that people originally bought when they couldn't afford anything else.  It was the Rambler of the 70's generation. Throw in the  flaming accusations (pun intended)  and things only got worse.

Thankfully people like Glidden, Gapp & Roush etc. gave the Pinto some dignity.  When you think about it the Pinto was its own unique style. It didn't copy any other car, not even looking like a little brother in the Ford line up.  Simple, YES. Simply wonderful.

I frequent a Studebaker site. There are good resources and some wonderful people there. But there is also an underlying aspect of authoritative one upmanship.  Where people will incessantly argue over the smallest things.  One time I cautioned a poster that new, later model windshields were nearly impossible to find. I got reprimanded (in a "Who do you think you are" kind of way) for saying so and then two available sources were linked.  Well, after numerous tries one place never even answered the phone and had no web site.  I later found they they were basically no longer in business. The other place said they had ONE in stock. I inquired if they were going to be able to get any more. Her reply was, "Not likely." I then said, "So, this is probably the last windshield available - ever," And she said, "Most likely so." That is a far cry from the stated reprimand "We ALWAYS get windshields from..."  Anyway, that is just an example of treatment I have never had at the PCCA. We don't always agree here, but we seem to keep it more civil than most.

fordblue72

I don't FB or twitter or any of that...I really like this site and get good responses to my Pinto related questions. Lots of knowledge here without the bull.
   I have many other cars and interests but really the Pinto is the most fun. Maybe because its simple and not trying to be something its not. Kinda like the PCCA.

dga57

I, too, am active in other online car clubs due to the diversity of the cars I own.  Hands down, the PCCA is the best in my opinion.  I'm not saying that just because of my position here... I would have told you the same thing when I first signed on.  There is a general spirit of enthusiasm and concern for others here that is missing in the other clubs I've been involved with.  Unfortunately, just like any group of people, we are not perfect.  Other than dealing with the occasional spammer, most of my administrative duties entail working behind the scenes to smooth ruffled feathers; sometimes with success, sometimes not.  The biggest problem with communicating online rather than face-to-face is that punctuation doesn't always work to properly convey the tone of our words.  Statements that are made sarcastically, or in an attempt at humor, can be grossly misinterpreted by someone who takes them more literally than they were intended.  I never divulge whatever private communications I have with any member, but in one instance a member was furious and ready to leave over a statement another member had made and, as it turned out, the statement was not only misinterpreted, it was misread!  Once that was pointed out, tempers calmed and everything was okay.  I am always available to anyone who wants to contact me.  I believe in this club and its members and will do whatever I can to help keep it a friendly and welcoming place. 


Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Wittsend on January 05, 2016, 02:35:21 PM
First let me say I have a diverse collection of cars and thus am on a number of car forums.  Something that had always stood out to me was the number of females on this forum. It truly set this forum apart from others I participate on.

From my perspective I never recall any woman asking a stupid question.  There may at times have been naive questions, but those are not gender specific and common to every aspect of the human being (male or female).  I remember that you were a frequent poster who often spoke with enthusiasm about being a Pinto owner.  It was rather noticeable when you and the other woman posters seemed to drop off the forum.  With the exception of one particular poster who seemed to speak his mind on a regular basis, I don't recall posters making comments derogatory to woman - on a regular basis. And, even that particular poster stated he was "poor" with the words he chose. I don't offer that as an excuse for him but only to say he had some form of of a conscience - even if way after the fact. If it is any value I don't recall him posting here in some time and assume he has left.

This is not my website, nor am I an administrator.  Regardless, I think we all need to be considerate towards each other.  And sometimes that includes overlooking a persons shortcomings.  Too often on ALL the forums I belong people seem to want to display their knowledge more than they want to help one another.  On the other hand people need to not be overly sensitive.  When I reply to "Turbo 2.3" questions (especially in earlier cars) I come on rather strong implying, "Do you know what you are getting into?"  But, I do that because unless the person has the experience with the needed tools, access to the parts, and the time there is a far greater likelihood they will wind up with a pile of parts and a disassembled Pinto than a completed turbo car.  In my mind I am being considerate to the potential end result.  And in a number of cases the individual was likely thankful they left their Pinto stock, or bought a Turbo Subaru etc.

Other times people will take the "Give you a fish, you eat  today. Teach you to fish, eat for a lifetime perspective." But, depending upon the presentation.. ., and or reception it can come across as not helping the immediate need. The initial reply was to "teach" (with good intent) and the recipient took it was being "lectured to" with them having time constraints that only a quick, simple answer would have sufficed.  Neither party was understanding the other.

I'm sorry that you and other woman have felt unwelcome.  It shouldn't be that way.  Have you and the others expressed this to Scott or Dwayne?  If I may offer this advice, men deal in specifics (He said..., He did..."). In your post you use the words "feel/feeling" three times (combined).  Men generally don't "go there" in a dispute.  And, being that the forum is likely 98%+ male... .

Lastly, I don't think you and I have ever had points of contention.  But, if I've ever been offensive my apology.

Tom
Well said... 8)
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

phils toys

It appears most of my android issues are fixed.
Thank you.
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

Pintosopher

Quote from: Wittsend on January 05, 2016, 02:35:21 PM
First let me say I have a diverse collection of cars and thus am on a number of car forums.  Something that had always stood out to me was the number of females on this forum. It truly set this forum apart from others I participate on.

From my perspective I never recall any woman asking a stupid question.  There may at times have been naive questions, but those are not gender specific and common to every aspect of the human being (male or female).  I remember that you were a frequent poster who often spoke with enthusiasm about being a Pinto owner.  It was rather noticeable when you and the other woman posters seemed to drop off the forum.  With the exception of one particular poster who seemed to speak his mind on a regular basis, I don't recall posters making comments derogatory to woman - on a regular basis. And, even that particular poster stated he was "poor" with the words he chose. I don't offer that as an excuse for him but only to say he had some form of of a conscience - even if way after the fact. If it is any value I don't recall him posting here in some time and assume he has left.

This is not my website, nor am I an administrator.  Regardless, I think we all need to be considerate towards each other.  And sometimes that includes overlooking a persons shortcomings.  Too often on ALL the forums I belong people seem to want to display their knowledge more than they want to help one another.  On the other hand people need to not be overly sensitive.  When I reply to "Turbo 2.3" questions (especially in earlier cars) I come on rather strong implying, "Do you know what you are getting into?"  But, I do that because unless the person has the experience with the needed tools, access to the parts, and the time there is a far greater likelihood they will wind up with a pile of parts and a disassembled Pinto than a completed turbo car.  In my mind I am being considerate to the potential end result.  And in a number of cases the individual was likely thankful they left their Pinto stock, or bought a Turbo Subaru etc.

Other times people will take the "Give you a fish, you eat  today. Teach you to fish, eat for a lifetime perspective." But, depending upon the presentation.. ., and or reception it can come across as not helping the immediate need. The initial reply was to "teach" (with good intent) and the recipient took it was being "lectured to" with them having time constraints that only a quick, simple answer would have sufficed.  Neither party was understanding the other.

I'm sorry that you and other woman have felt unwelcome.  It shouldn't be that way.  Have you and the others expressed this to Scott or Dwayne?  If I may offer this advice, men deal in specifics (He said..., He did..."). In your post you use the words "feel/feeling" three times (combined).  Men generally don't "go there" in a dispute.  And, being that the forum is likely 98%+ male... .

Lastly, I don't think you and I have ever had points of contention.  But, if I've ever been offensive my apology.

Tom
Yes, What he said... . ;)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Wittsend

First let me say I have a diverse collection of cars and thus am on a number of car forums.  Something that had always stood out to me was the number of females on this forum. It truly set this forum apart from others I participate on.

From my perspective I never recall any woman asking a stupid question.  There may at times have been naive questions, but those are not gender specific and common to every aspect of the human being (male or female).  I remember that you were a frequent poster who often spoke with enthusiasm about being a Pinto owner.  It was rather noticeable when you and the other woman posters seemed to drop off the forum.  With the exception of one particular poster who seemed to speak his mind on a regular basis, I don't recall posters making comments derogatory to woman - on a regular basis. And, even that particular poster stated he was "poor" with the words he chose. I don't offer that as an excuse for him but only to say he had some form of of a conscience - even if way after the fact. If it is any value I don't recall him posting here in some time and assume he has left.

This is not my website, nor am I an administrator.  Regardless, I think we all need to be considerate towards each other.  And sometimes that includes overlooking a persons shortcomings.  Too often on ALL the forums I belong people seem to want to display their knowledge more than they want to help one another.  On the other hand people need to not be overly sensitive.  When I reply to "Turbo 2.3" questions (especially in earlier cars) I come on rather strong implying, "Do you know what you are getting into?"  But, I do that because unless the person has the experience with the needed tools, access to the parts, and the time there is a far greater likelihood they will wind up with a pile of parts and a disassembled Pinto than a completed turbo car.  In my mind I am being considerate to the potential end result.  And in a number of cases the individual was likely thankful they left their Pinto stock, or bought a Turbo Subaru etc.

Other times people will take the "Give you a fish, you eat  today. Teach you to fish, eat for a lifetime perspective." But, depending upon the presentation.. ., and or reception it can come across as not helping the immediate need. The initial reply was to "teach" (with good intent) and the recipient took it was being "lectured to" with them having time constraints that only a quick, simple answer would have sufficed.  Neither party was understanding the other.

I'm sorry that you and other woman have felt unwelcome.  It shouldn't be that way.  Have you and the others expressed this to Scott or Dwayne?  If I may offer this advice, men deal in specifics (He said..., He did..."). In your post you use the words "feel/feeling" three times (combined).  Men generally don't "go there" in a dispute.  And, being that the forum is likely 98%+ male... .

Lastly, I don't think you and I have ever had points of contention.  But, if I've ever been offensive my apology.

Tom

blupinto

Sadly, with a few (and I mean A FEW) exceptions, I've been made to feel unwelcome here. I used to love to natter with fellow Pinto Peeps, but politics and the "everybody gets a juicebox" mentality kept me away. When I've asked for advice here, I got very few responses... making me feel like I'm wasting peoples' time asking. Frankly, the Pinto Peeps on FB have been more accomodating.  I miss the good times we had here, but I won't hang out where I'm not welcome. I do visit, because a few dear friends are here and not on FB... but the welcome feeling is gone for me. It looks like others might be feeling the same. 
:-\
One can never have too many Pintos!

dga57

Good to know we still have some loyal fans here! 


Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

pinto_one

Yep I had a flip phone one time , and yes it use to flip me out when I dropped it and you always had three pieces, phone , Battery and cover on the ground a wondering who called you when you pulle it out to answer it but dropped it , guess that gave the meaning of dropped call 😜. , but I will always check here to chat and help other pinto people , and fine more that are near me , I'm not going anywhere either,  y'all have a great Sunday 🎄🎁

76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

fozzy

Quote from: Reeves1 on December 22, 2015, 05:40:52 AM
fozzy - I still use a flip phone  ;D

Prefer this site, big time !
As long as the site (and I'm above dirt) I'll be using it !

My previous phone was a razor flip phone that got terrible battery life to the point I broke it in half then smashed it to bits one day, oops.

I'm not going anywhere and hope to post more frequently in the near future.

dga57

Quote from: Reeves1 on December 22, 2015, 05:40:52 AM
fozzy - I still use a flip phone  ;D



My cell is pre - flip phone!  No need for a smart phone when the user is dumb as dirt!  We may have lost a little ground to Facebook, but our membership continues to grow.  I don't think we have to worry about this site going anywhere anytime soon.

Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

Reeves1

fozzy - I still use a flip phone  ;D

Prefer this site, big time !
As long as the site (and I'm above dirt) I'll be using it !

phils toys

Quote from: fozzy on December 16, 2015, 04:57:14 AM
One reason for the change might be the change in the forum display? I used to frequent the site a fair bit, mostly using my phone then something changed and now the web site doesnt display right when using my phone, I cant even log in. I can use tapatalk but don't like the way that looks

I have same problems
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

74 PintoWagon

Buddy of mine calls it "Fagbook", LOL..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

entropy

Facebook is cordially invited to shampoo my crotch.  I do not Facebook.  I'm not going anywhere....
1972 Hoonabout
SBF swap
-308 cid
-CNC ported Brodix heads
-Edelbrock Super Victor intake
-QuickFuel 750 double pumper built by Siebert
-Single stage NOS Cheater system
8" rear 4.11 posi
G-Force 5 Speed
10 point rollcage


450-ish rwhp on motor.....something a bit more than that on the spray

A Alves

For the record I don't care for FB. For the most part it's a gossip site and I prefer direct sites and no bs.
73 Pinto wagon
77 Pinto panel wagon
87 Mustang GT
06 Mustang GT
99 Mustang convertible current drive
72 Pinto wagon 2.3 turbo 5 spd 4:11 8" rear current drive
15 50th Aniversary Mustang GT current drive when the wife lets me

fozzy

One reason for the change might be the change in the forum display? I used to frequent the site a fair bit, mostly using my phone then something changed and now the web site doesnt display right when using my phone, I cant even log in. I can use tapatalk but don't like the way that looks so dont bother.

My project is still crawling along, I'm way way overdue in updating the build thread.