Mini Classifieds

Needed- Good 71-73 Rear End or parts- close to AL
Date: 09/15/2019 12:38 pm
Tire needed p185/80r13
Date: 12/31/2017 09:08 pm
pinto wagon parts
Date: 12/19/2019 01:43 pm
Mustang II C4 Transmission
Date: 07/28/2017 06:26 am
1971 Pinto Do It Yourself Manual

Date: 03/06/2017 01:19 am
LOTS OF 1971-1973 PARTS FOR SALE
Date: 02/03/2018 11:28 am
ENGINE COMPLETE 1971 PINTO
Date: 12/28/2017 03:55 pm
Looking for fan shroud for 72' Pinto 1.6
Date: 04/13/2017 04:56 am
V8 rear end
Date: 04/12/2018 10:57 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,573
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 656
  • Online ever: 1,722 (Yesterday at 02:19:48 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 546
  • Total: 546
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Lost compression in single cylinder...

Started by Liane, May 02, 2015, 04:02:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

65ShelbyClone

Higher-RPM engines like the Hawk's also tend to have more cam overlap that promotes reversion (pulling exhaust back in) at lower engine speeds.

A regular misfire at idle can also do that because the cylinder has less than atmospheric pressure it on the intake stroke. Nothing fires and expands on the power stroke so the pressure remains below ambient when the exhaust valve opens, causing air to rush in.

Quote from: dick1172762 on May 04, 2015, 05:34:44 PM
I heard of that trick in 1948 and its still a good one. Use a 9x11 sheet of paper to get the full use of the trick.

Do you think an A3 size would work better since it's a metric engine?
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

amc49

Just a tip..........

'A  trick  showed to me to check for exhaust valve problem is to hold a piece of paper to exhaust tip and see if it sucks the paper in.'

'I heard of that trick in 1948 and its still a good one. Use a 9x11 sheet of paper to get the full use of the trick.'

FYI, the trick works but much better on interference type exhaust with multiple cylinders that interfere with each other (normal common non-header log type manifolds). I simply use my hand and listen carefully, you'll hear the spit of the non working cylinder in the longer stream of normal pressure bumps there. Between hand being sucked back in and noise you can generally tell the misfire. HOWEVER, when working on a proper tuned exhaust and/or say single cylinder firing down its' own pipe it is NORMAL to feel the pipe suk after the pressure pulse, it's the normal vacuum pulse that follows any positive pulse down a pipe. That negative pulse gets buried in all the positives in a multi-cylinder engine and more with the more cylinders to interfere with it.

I remember back in dirt biking days watching a parked Honda 305 Superhawk with high straight pipes in 4 foot weeds first blasting the weeds out of the way then trying to suk them back into the pipe with every pulse at idle. You could easily feel it too, within 1 inch you could hardly stop hand from being pulled back to get burned on pipe end with the negative pulse.

Wittsend

Just a quick notation regarding Pinto_One's second post.  He is giving a proper rundown on checks for loss of power that would include checking the ignition system. I'm assuming that you have already determined (given the subject title) that compression is down in one cylinder and therefore the recommended ignition test would not have any bearing on that (specifically).  Being that you stated you have much to learn I didn't want you to associate an ignition problem as a cause of low compression and follow that path.

His recommended leakdown test is superior to the compression test I recommended. 

dick1172762

I heard of that trick in 1948 and its still a good one. Use a 9x11 sheet of paper to get the full use of the trick.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

jonz2pinto

A  trick  showed to me to check for exhaust valve problem is to hold a piece of paper to exhaust tip and see if it sucks the paper in.It worked on a pinto with a burnt valve for me.Sometimes you can can hear a spitting type sound at tip also similar to a miss.
Pinto-is short for pint-o-fun.

pinto_one

If you can find one to borrow or rent use a cylinder leak down gauge, I use them when I do a 100 inspection on aircraft engines,  it will let you know if you have a valve or piston ring problem,  I do all the cylinders and write it down , I do this on the aircraft I work on and enter the info log books for past history of the engine , if all are good next thing I would look at is plug wires , a bad plug, or something in the ignition system,  if that does not show up any thing last I would check for a worn cam , lobe almost gone, these are a few ways we can point you in the right direction on fixing whats wrong . As Wittsend said give us some numbers , and a extra note is to keep the fan belt in great shape , if you lose it it will run hot quickly, and Will crack a head in no time, the later 2.8s in the bronco II/Rangers had all three belts go over the top water pump pulley to help with that problem , (ask me how I know)  good luck ,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Wittsend

Can you give the readings of your cylinders? Is there a total loss of compression, or is the one cylinder decreased from the others? Compression loss comes from many causes. Excessive mileage or lack of oil can wear the cylinder walls and piston rings. Piston rings can break. Pistons can get holes in them. Cylinder heads can crack or warp. Head gaskets can fail. Some engines (thought I don't think it is a problem with your engine) can have the head bolts stretch or loosen. Camshafts can wear. Valves can become mis-adjusted. Valves can burn.

Leakage at the head can sometimes be determined by coolant leakage.  It can show externally, internally (milky white-ish oil) - or dampness/misfires on the spark plug. A burnt valve usually sounds like a misfire. A worn cam will show as excessive valve clearance and a ticking noise. Rings and cylinder wall problems can somewhat be determined by putting about a tablespoon full of oil in the cylinder and then re-checking the compression. This will show a temporary rise in pressure as the oil momentarily creates better sealing. So, there are a few of the things you can start with and report back.

Liane

Thank you very much for the responses!

dick1172762

Or a blown head gasket or cracked head. UGH or DOS UGH!
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

pinto_one

The number one issue on the 2.8 is the factory timing gear on the cam, if it was changed it was very reliable, only every 15 thousand miles you should adjust the valves, I do mine every 7 to 8 thousand to keep them quiet, if you lost compression on one cylinder you may have a burnt valve there, check the valve clearance and see if one may be set too tight, also check for vacuum leaks,  hope this helps you,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Liane

Hello, and thank you for reading...

I have a 1978 Pinto Wagon with the Cologne 2.8l v6.. I was wondering if there are common issues with this motor, and with the cylinders themselves. Please be descriptive as I have much to learn.

As much help as you can provide is greatly appreciated!

Liane M.