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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Ethanol and rubber parts

Started by AndrewG, November 15, 2014, 11:56:14 PM

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pintoguy76

Quote from: sedandelivery on November 19, 2014, 06:54:30 AM
My experience with ethanol problems was with small engines. It plays  havoc with 2 cycle such as chain saws, leaf blowers, and weed whackers, and the snow blowers have to have their carbs redone every winter. They sell expensive canned ethanol-free gas we might try. The vehicles (dump truck and cars) not so much. I think the seasonal sitting of the small engines have a lot to do with it.

Yep! The small engines suffer the most. Haven't had any problems in the cars but then again id replaced all my parts that have rubber in them since this whole ethanol thing started. I imagine new carb kits and pumps and bulk fuel line are all made with new stuff that is ethanol resistant.  With that said, I still prefer to get premium fuel from a station that doesnt put ethanol in their premium. Missouri state law requires 10% ethanol in all gasoline UNDER 91 octane. Most stations put it in the 91 too. I have one station here that advertises no ethanol in their premium. I try to get fuel there...

Ethanol is nasty. It eats rubber, contains less energy (causes more fuel usage) plus its corrosive among other things. The ford dealer told my boss that the ethanol in our fuel does something to the spark plugs that makes them not last as long too. Cant remember what it was tho...
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

amc49

Highly possible, but here in Texas the corrosion issue is a lot more in your face. I've never had it freeze in lines but up north, oh yeah, I assume that would be an issue. Here, simply stirring up the fuel like the way I clean parts will pull water into it in less than five minutes on a humid day and during the summer. A car carb fuel bowl will dry up in say a month as compared to 2 or 3 before with straight gasoline and the rubber parts left behind get quite a bit harder than before. Rock hard actually.

A funny but helpful side effect.............having the ethanol in there makes parts cleaned with fuel rinse much drier with water after, the ethanol does not leave behind a slight oily residue like straight gasoline used to. Parts washed so then airdry to bone dry in a couple minutes in the sun. Nice on bigger pieces like valve covers with baffles in them. Oil is removed pretty much 101%.

sedandelivery

It is my understanding the biggest problem is ethanol has a tendency to absorb water,  and indeed the parts have to be made for ethanol. The reason alcohol has not seen a big use here is in the winter the condensate froze in the fuel lines and the fuel could not get through to the engine. In Brazil, the engines are made to withstand the ethanol, and it's warm so it does not get a chance to freeze. I have had many problems with the ethanol gasoline here, especially in small engines.

amc49

'Because of the tropical climate, the water condensation problem is not a big deal because it does not get cold enough to freeze.'

Nope not even. The high humidity is what leads to the water in the fuel to begin with and cold is not the issue nearly so bad as water in the fuel regardless of temperature. The water combined with ethanol which is a weak acid then speeds up corrosion in hot weather. The sitting unused causes it not the cold.

sedandelivery

One of the posters mentioned South America. In Brazil alcohol from sugar cane is widely used to fuel vehicles, as it is plentiful and cheap. The engines in those cars are specially designed to burn both gasoline or alcohol. Because of the tropical climate, the water condensation problem is not a big deal because it does not get cold enough to freeze. I do not know if the formula they use is different from the corn based ethanol we use here.

dick1172762

10% will not matter to you, cause you live in the land of fruit and nuts. 50% by 2020. Also heard that Harry Reid is talking about a toll gate on the border to keep you guys from moving to Nevada.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Pintosopher

Quote from: popbumper on December 10, 2014, 02:07:46 PM
On a related note - ethanol laced fuels tear the absolute CHIZ out of the plastic pieces in lawnmower and string trimmer fuel related parts. Be sure (too late for some now but....) when you store your equipment for winter that you have run it dry of fuel and emptied it, otherwise you're asking for shortened life. I found this out the hard way.

Chris
Eventually, the Power equipment industry will react and manufacture the same plastics used in automotive fuel tanks on newer cars. For now, annual evacuation and replacement of hoses is the drill. We can only hope the new Congress will gut the EPA enough to kill ethanol at more than 10% and maybe stop its use altogether. ::)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

popbumper

On a related note - ethanol laced fuels tear the absolute CHIZ out of the plastic pieces in lawnmower and string trimmer fuel related parts. Be sure (too late for some now but....) when you store your equipment for winter that you have run it dry of fuel and emptied it, otherwise you're asking for shortened life. I found this out the hard way.

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

AndrewG

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on November 21, 2014, 09:14:35 PM
.........The best thing you could likely do to ensure maximum ethanol compatibility would be to replace the fuel pump, replace the soft fuel line with modern alcohol-resistant type, and install new soft parts in the carb.

I think that's what I'll do.  Thanks for the advice.

amc49

And what I do with the bike as well. Oddly enough all my fuel containers are pretty much plastic and no trouble......???????? Go figure. They are the emission ones though that try to blow out or zoop in the sides so they seal pretty good. Stick them in during the summer and almost caved in flat in winter, put out in sun for an hour and they puff sides back out, I hate them.

65ShelbyClone

The sealed containers I refer to are airtight, non-permeable steel cans or EFI fuel systems. Plastic fuel jugs let oxygen right through the sides.

I shut off the fuel and run my bike's carb dry before parking it. No problems in the last 10 years.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

amc49

Boy howdy does gasoline dry up faster with ethanol in it. Spill some around the lawn mower while fueling and a great amount can be evapped in like 10 seconds. Never saw anything like it.

Are your 'sealed' containers fully sealed? I have used say 10% 2 stroke fuel/oil mix and let it even go over the winter to use the next year and no trouble at all and same with tank of fuel in a car ('98 Contour) that was down well over a year. It instantly started up and ran fine but I don't prefer to do that. I diluted the car tank by filling with fresh fuel as soon as it was up and running. I do generally try to act as if the 10% has a shelf life of say one year. I just let a Focus sit for 6 months while doing other things too, the tank was somewhat open to the environment as the fuel pump came out of the top (I cut a hole under the back seat rather than drop the tank to preserve all the old hose structure there). Half tank of fuel in it and I had covered the open 8 inch hole with foil beaded tight over the hole to lower air aspiration. Fuel was still clear when pump went back in and car started and ran again instantly with no issues. Yet let the fuel sit for ten minutes in the outside air and it separates and water in it. Some funny stuff there.

That's on EFI stuff, I've had fits with it on say 4 cylinder bikes, the floats can stick in as little as two weeks, the carbs just vent way too much. Carbed cars probably do that as well. The small engine stuff does but way too easy to simply rebuild carb on the spot and fixed there. Running them clean out of fuel to not allow the slower drying out seems to be the best thing to do there. Been working fine for me. Letting the fuel bowls dry up slowly on their own is definitely a mistake.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: AndrewG on November 18, 2014, 09:08:22 AM
OK, thanks for all those gas price updates...... :o
Getting back to the original point of this post,  anyone have any problems with fuel pumps and carbs as a result of using gas with ethanol.  I don't have access to ethanol free gas here, so I'm wondering if I should be updating my carb and fuel pump to avoid problems.

I have been using E10 in my carbureted Mustang since I got it in '05 because E10 is all that's available out of a pump in CA (by law...even VP StreetBlaze 100 is E10 at  $8.00/gal). The biggest problem I have is with the carburetor (Holley 650) drying out when the car sits for a long time. The floats stick open and the bowl gaskets weep for a while afterward. The soft parts were all new in 2005. The biggest problem I experience with E10 is a short shelf life even in sealed containers and fuel systems.

The best thing you could likely do to ensure maximum ethanol compatibility would be to replace the fuel pump, replace the soft fuel line with modern alcohol-resistant type, and install new soft parts in the carb.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

74 PintoWagon

Yeah, sitting outside definitely want to cover it up, mine sits in the shop so it's not exposed to the elements, as long as I keep it full I don't have issues..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

On my rider mower which sits outside 100% of the time I keep tank filled and I use soft cheaper thin wall baggies like 3 of them one over the other and strong rubber bands to cinch them tightly around tank neck so the cap breather cannot freely breathe air. Been doing that for 3 years now and it always starts almost instantly after the winter sit as I unsnap the air filter lid and shoot a short shot of starting fluid in before that first crank. Engine itself is kept relatively protected by covering with garbage bags and cinching them down to stay in place. That mower has been running now for pretty close to 24 years, at 16 I rebuilt the engine. Still runs perfect.

74 PintoWagon

My pressure washer has a B/S and it sat for almost a year, I put Sta-Bil in the gas and filled it to the top, when I dragged it out it fired on the second pull. Now that I have access to non-ethanol gas I been using it and it runs WAYY better..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

I work on plenty of small engines as well, lawn, garden, 2 cycle, 4 cycle. The short passages before the vent to atmosphere is why they mess up so fast, like older cars vented to atmosphere way too easy. A lot of the trouble goes away if you dedicate to running the unit totally out of fuel before storing it for the winter. Emptying tank is not enough, you have to pump the carb clean of fuel by running it. Ethanol in the fuel hardens the flapper valves in diaphragm carbs even faster than regular stale fuel used to. Why most have changed from rubber flappers to mylar or plastic.

The hot and cold of the day pumps water vapor in with air aspiration all day long. Late model PCM controlled cars if truly vapor tight can sit with the fuel for over a year and no phase separation, I've done it. Best to fill the tank close to completely though. Less airspace to bring water then.

Pintosopher

Well ,  It would appear that this Thread is about as corrosive as a full tank of ethanol/gas blend left to sit for a year.  Since the issue of vapor permeation  only applies to OLD lines and digestive tracts, maybe we should ignore all combustible vapor and just disband the Blue Flame club.
I suspect that all of this lunacy was intended to drive up the Price of Taco shells , and  to relieve us of more greenbacks.  Flatulence rules, Political, or organic, you can't escape the consequences.
You can change your Consumption and take a Beano or two..

Spitting a few lines,
Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

What do the people in South America do? Some country's run on very high % of alkie as it is cheaper to make than gasoline. I know in a race car you need a way to light it off on start up. Then after the race we would run gasoline thru the engine to clean the alkie out.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dick1172762

Quote from: AndrewG on November 18, 2014, 08:19:19 PM
Here's the link to Daytona Parts:

http://www.daytonaparts.com

Notice they state "Ethanol Resistant Parts" right on the home page.
Maybe it's all BS.  Let me know what you guys think.
Thanks for the link. It sounds great.  Well done web site. Their price's are more than new carbs are selling for on E-bay.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

sedandelivery

My experience with ethanol problems was with small engines. It plays  havoc with 2 cycle such as chain saws, leaf blowers, and weed whackers, and the snow blowers have to have their carbs redone every winter. They sell expensive canned ethanol-free gas we might try. The vehicles (dump truck and cars) not so much. I think the seasonal sitting of the small engines have a lot to do with it.

amc49

I correct for my statement that the needle /seat they showed was flat, the pic in the video was not clear being too small but on the site they show it closer, it IS angled to center the needle tip as well but not at as sharp an angle and the lesser weight of aluminum will not self center as well as the steel needle a with sharper angle. But that didn't stop them from saying it was 'better' at all. More self-bullsh-t.

76hotrodpinto

Wait... So the spit isn't ethanol resistant either?!
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

amc49

Yes, they do and then brag about the aluminum body of the super trick needle/seat idea they have there or simply the industry design merely inverted. Aluminum CORRODES in ethanol once enough moisture hits it, and why don't they make them out of stainless and then last forever? Cheap company is why.  The inverted needle seat they show there will flow LESS than the OEM type will and I could care less who thinks otherwise. And control the fuel level? Only the size of the hole does that, the graph they give has all these points made up by them and no real world proof of that at all, in short laughable. The first baseline they give of ideal fuel air across the range is impossible in a dead straight line, A/F ratio does not work in a straight line and not evenly remotely tied to the real world there.  Making the rest of the graph a child's pipe dream. I like the idea of one 'universal' 1 bbl.carb to fit every engine from the '30s to now too, the visions of a madman. Making a carb have an adjustable main jet does NOT qualify it to be able to run on every engine out there. Not nearly. That they would claim that tells me all I need to know about the company.......

I personally having seen the website wouldn't buy spit from those people.

Carb made of zinc/aluminum alloy like all others, it will corrode parts just as fast. The most damage I've found in my own personal stuff was in carb metal itself rather than rubber parts if they sit, FYI. Under the varnish you begin to find weird corrosion like you've never seen before. It gets worse down low where the water droplets accumulate from the ethanol pulling water out of the air coming in carb vents. Why I say don't worry about the rubber, it may well be the carb body itself that self destructs there, the power valve threaded hole on a 5200 commonly corrodes the threads and seat out of it to not seal. The ethanol in a steel pinto fuel tank will quadruple the rust powder brought into carb as well when the tank walls rust. Meaning filters will fill up like lightning.

AndrewG

Here's the link to Daytona Parts:

http://www.daytonaparts.com

Notice they state "Ethanol Resistant Parts" right on the home page.
Maybe it's all BS.  Let me know what you guys think.

dick1172762

Quote from: amc49 on November 18, 2014, 06:40:38 PM
So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.

I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to.

I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.

The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loading.
Satery
Quote from: amc49 on November 18, 2014, 06:40:38 PM
So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.

I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to.

I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.

The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loadin
Saturday night live BS. I love it!!!! Truer words were never spoken. I looked for Daytona Parts on the net and still haven't found it. Just more BS from the land of fruit and nuts. Hope someone finds Daytona Parts cause it sounded great, but then so did cars that run on water and 100 mpg carbs.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

More. The vapor causing fire issue has ALWAYS been present on any cars before emission years ('72 or so) when they truly began to seal the fuel systems. Even then the early '70s and 80s ones still leak vapor if the car heats up say in hot garage. Hopefully carbon canister catches that but if saturated no way. It comes right out the vent there.

Ethanol brings more trouble to the table but not not that much more except like I said, if the car sits. It by itself is no reason to suddenly start worrying about fire unless you already have the issue to begin with. Modern pressurized FI brings 100X the fire dangers that ethanol does. No such thing as a small leak there or flamethrower. Why you see so many more cars burned on the side of the road in the last 20 years. Almost all will be FI cars.

amc49

So I watched the video. What a joke! Like an episode of Saturday Night Live. Leno being taken to the cleaners if he truly believes this stuff.

I have never ever seen steel particles stuck to a needle in 40 years of carb building by the hundreds. Most particles in a carb are like dirt or aluminum oxide or sand particles. MANY needles are spring clipped and they couldn't spin if they tried to. Many needles have stainless bodies and will never magnetize, even so first time I've ever heard that one. The needles will move around but enough to magnetize? Having trouble with that one, could find no evidence on the web of it either.

I have bought carb kits by the hundreds as well and some of the cheapest crap Asian made and never once ran into a needle that had an off center tip. Maybe just dumb luck huh? Lots of 4 cylinder inline four bikes and 4X the chance of it too.

The part about the little spring bumper tip on the needle and the last that float does not now move as far, nope, not even, spring tipped needles MUST move further to open but then the discussion also does not mention the fact that the compared pics of float drop there have different needle tips, one is dead flat instead of pointed and they seem to be saying that is better. No again, if off center tips are bad like earlier in the vid then flat ones are too, pointed tips are self centering and the flat is not and every time closing can close off center based on how much side clearance the body of the needle has to the bore. Not only that, flat tips have more seal area but the unit loading is lower for that and they can leak easier. Why do you think engine valves like intake or exhaust are cut at 45 degrees and a narrow seat there? Think about it. For self centering and high unit loading.

AndrewG

Quote from: pintosopher on November 18, 2014, 02:33:48 PM
.....There is a real danger of using ethanol fuel even at 10%  to gasoline ratio.  The original fuel hoses ( rubber) were never designed for any ethanol exposure .  In summation your rubber components must be made of a Fluoroelastomer based rubber blend to fight off the degradation  and rot of hoses and gaskets.  Look for the SAE J30R9 marking as the minimum standard, and SAE J30R14T1 for the latest permeation for vapors.  Do not ignore this, as a vapor leak can set the car on fire in an enclosed space with  mortal results for property and life. 

pintosopher,
Thanks for the detailed info and confirmation.  I thought there might be some danger after reading up on this and watching some videos.

Quote from: amc49 on November 18, 2014, 03:15:28 PM
.....What are you going to update to??? I have not seen any pump advertised as for ethanol, they will use whatever rubber diaphragms around.......

amc49,
Watch the video I posted earlier.  They discuss replacement parts for fuel pumps that are designed for Ethanol.  (Below is a link to a video discussing carburetors and where to purchase parts that can handle Ethanol).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3YoHOodWHc&list=PLcAFCEDZU39zRJldKabwzpvz30WlbXZ72

amc49

What are you going to update to??? I have not seen any pump advertised as for ethanol, they will use whatever rubber diaphragms around they have as the pump for an old car is not intended for long use anyway, the way new parts are now. Carb? Maybe needle, haven't seen any ethanol pump diaphragms yet but then haven't looked hard either. The normal parts will run for a good while as long as vehicle does not SIT, the bug-a-boo there.

10% ethanol can run as high as 20% in the real world if you measure it, why your mileage goes all over the map now. The dealers here check all cars for that percentage to make you pay for any too high to void warranty. It happens all the time. If they go to 15% you can count on some stations having 25% as the ethanol component is cheaper than gas now and they purposely mix in more to lower your mileage to make you buy more gas.