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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

2.8 V6 change

Started by dianne, April 16, 2014, 08:04:29 AM

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dianne

Thanks, the Pinto will remain a 2.0 now after seeing Scott's posts.

But my Mustang II Ghia has a 2.8 and I want to keep it original. I really don't have to do much yet, but I plan on a rebuild, so storing everything for it would be good I think.

Thanks for the link on the 2.8 :-D
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

enzo

To pickup where I left off, the cam journals are indeed larger on the both the truck 2.8 and the 2.9. The 2.9 and 4.0 have hydraulic lifters.

I solved the hot running by removing the belt driven 16 inch fan and replacing it with a electric 16 inch fan.  Because the 2.8's are geared short, the fan runs fast also and creates an air dam that the air can't flow through the radiator. I have a fan controller to switch on at between 195 and 200 degrees. In town the fan will cycle, on the highway there is enough air flow to keep the temp about 180-190.  I have a manual switch to turn the fan on when I'm climbing a pass.

I also looked at the push rod 4.0.  The block is much taller than the others to accommodate the longer stroke.  With taller intake manifolds, you may have hood clearance problems.

Check out the Ranger Station.com. They have an engine tech section that will give all the information needed for your project.

Enzo.

dianne

Quote from: Reeves1 on April 19, 2014, 04:07:34 AM
4 LT.
Can get lot-o-parts & even hot rod it.

But, I'm a V8 guy  ;D

I still have a hopped up 302 in my King Cobra and a 351W in my Galaxie :D
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

Reeves1

Quote from: dianne on April 17, 2014, 06:19:36 AM
07 Ranger drive line? What size engine?

4 LT.
Can get lot-o-parts & even hot rod it.

But, I'm a V8 guy  ;D

dianne

After reading Scott's post on the 2.0 or 2000, I'm sticking with the 2000 in the Pinto. I'll just need to start looking for parts.

I will want the 2.8 in the Mustang II Ghia. So I need to start looking for those next also I guess.
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

enzo

I rebuilt my 2.8 last summer and had problems finding main bearings and water pumps.  I researched the 2.9 for some time before staying w/2.8.  The main difference with the 2.9 is it is injected only!  You would need to wire in a fuel injection computer.  The heads are different also as Ford changed the cam drive to a chain instead of gears.  So the cam turns the other direction.  Also the valve sequence across the head is different (2.9=IEIEIE, 2.8=IEEIEI). I believe the cam journals are larger on the 2.9 as well. The cranks and rods are interchangeable with slightly different stroke. Bellhousing is the same. The 2.8 out of the Pinto and Mustang had different main bearing set than the trucks. If you decide to do a 2.8, go with the 83-85 out of the Ranger and Bronco II, more engine parts still available.  Manifolds are not interchangeable.

dianne

Yeah on a 2.3. Maybe I'll keep looking for one :)
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: dianne on April 17, 2014, 06:21:21 AM
Maybe, if it has a turbo... I want some power. Maybe I'll end up leaving the 2.0. I have other cars that are gonna be faster, this could be my slug car, but love the car and it needs a tad more power. I'll ask my mechanic and see what he says about pepping up the 2.0 :)
From what I been reading the Turbo deal is the way to go, they're readily available and it bolts in..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dianne

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on April 16, 2014, 09:34:23 PM
After reading all this I think it's pretty simple, "2.3".. ;) :D :D

Maybe, if it has a turbo... I want some power. Maybe I'll end up leaving the 2.0. I have other cars that are gonna be faster, this could be my slug car, but love the car and it needs a tad more power. I'll ask my mechanic and see what he says about pepping up the 2.0 :)
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

dianne

07 Ranger drive line? What size engine?
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

Reeves1

07 ^ Ford Ranger drive line, rad to diff.
With the 4 LT and 4 speed trans & the 4:88s in the diff, you would have a very snappy car, good mileage, fun to drive.

I rally wanted to do this with my parts car, when the wife wrote her 07 Ranger off this winter.
Insurance co. wouldn't let me buy back the truck  >:(

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: dianne on April 16, 2014, 07:56:36 PM
WOW, I have NO clue what to do now.
After reading all this I think it's pretty simple, "2.3".. ;) :D :D
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dianne

Quote from: Chopchop on April 16, 2014, 11:33:26 AM
The 2.8 is a fine motor but like bbobcat said, hop up parts are pretty tough to come by.  The last I checked, I couldn't even find a cam for one.
At best you'll find an old Offy 4 barrel intake, maybe a cam and perhaps some headers...

Dave

Is that a GT6? I had a Spitfire way long ago, always wanted a larger motor and non-Lucas wiring :-) Why don't the Britt's make refrigerators? Because Lucas would do the wiring ahahahaha

Nice, post full pics :)
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

dianne

WOW, thanks I have NO clue what to do now ahahahahaha

Dave is probably laughing at me, he was going to stop by my office the other day but he had to change the muffler on his Pinto. Hopefully he'll get there before I paint it and after :)

I still can't believe I was going to keep the Maverick over my Pinto, but I want a Pinto. My mechanic's dad, also a mechanic, said he chopped a 390 into a Pinto back in the 80s. I have no clue how that would even fit in there or even a 302 for that matter. People talk crap sometimes, but I believe him.

So what will happen to the Pinto engine compartment? I've read everything and it seems different people like different engines, I have a 2.8 in my Mustang II Ghia Sport Coupe, pic of it attached (got the car detailed today to see how much work I have to do). The 2.8 isn't bad for driving around town, it's a neat engine. My Pinto has factory air and I want to keep air in the car (not there now, but will be again).

So now I need to read more of your comments, read the ones you all already posted, and decide what the heck to do. Working on the 2.0 could be an option like Pintosopher talked about. Honestly, compared to a lot of cars Pintosopher, a 1.7 BMW rips butt compared to this, or my 2.8 in the Mustang, or my 351 in my Galaxie, or even the 200 in my ex-Maverick. I kind of have a heavy foot and when I step on the gas I want something to react.

I picture my car when done, and if I'm ever finished working on it with huge tires in the back jacked up and pulling 12 or 11 second on the 1/4 mile LOL But honestly, don't know if I'll do it, I kind of like it stock and it's a cool looking car. I just gotta decide what I need to do!



Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

bbobcat75

Dianne don't get me wrong I love my 75 bobcat with the factory v6 but not practical for driving on highway or for a long distance - car has a bad set up from the factory v6 -c3- with 3.55 rear gears, takes off from a light like a bat out of hell but max speed is about 65 -69 (not a highway car) and motor is screaming at about 3000-4000 rpm - no tach to know for sure! but doesn't sound happy!! but love the power off the line and sounds good at a light - but my little 2.3 with the turbo is way cheaper and easier to build and hate to say takes off pretty good and cruises at 80mph like its nothing!!!

do yourself the easy cheap way and stick a 4banger in it!! the v8s are cool but most guys hack and cut and hammer it to fit!! which in my eyes kills the car! anyone can smash a can with a hammer! but to make it fit like it was factory is a talent and I can respect and appreciate that!!

take care
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

amc49

In the mostly motorcycle world I came from 100 cc. is 10 hp. The 2.3 comes closer to fulfilling the extra 300 cc. (30 hp.) than the 2.8 does the extra 800 (80 hp.) over the 2.0. The six just is not a performance engine without a lot of work. There for a while was an excellent hi-perf book out that was called "Hot Rodding the Ford V-6" or something close, it went into all the details of the evolution from 2.8 to 4.0 and the exploitable differences between them, an excellent book. Mine got stolen though a good while back. Hard to find.

I'd go 2.3 before 2.8, there's just so much stuff out there for them and not hard to get a relatively stock 2.3 to make about as much USEABLE power as a 2.8 and not stressed hard at all. Turbo even better.  The six is just not well laid out like sixes today are, being an early idea that needed much more development. The power suffers as a result. Heck. the 2.3 is the same way, with the most mis-designed head on the planet, but at least there's a few options to help remedy that.


Rob3865

Shootin myself in the foot here since I will have one for sale soon.

I have never like the Cologne engines. That's the 2.8 family. They FINALLY got it right with the 4.0. I have seen more problems with the 2.8, 2.9 than I care to remember. A lot of them problems from some sort of oil pressure woes. I have worked on a lot of them, because they were used a good bit for fleet service back in the mid to late 80s. That's what most cable, plumbing, electrical and contractor companies ran, was the little Rangers with those engines. Yes, I admit they were usually overloaded by about ten times, but nonetheless, those engines made a negative impact on me. I think they are pieces of crap I wouldn't own one.

bbobcat75

DAVE-CHOPCHOP

THE EARLY BRONCO II HAD A 2.8 1980-1985  86 IS WHEN THE 2.9 CAME INTO PRODUCTION!

JUST FOUND A INTAKE AND CAM SET UP POSTED IT IN THE FORUMS FOR ANYONE LOOKING FOR PERFORMANCE PARTS!!

NOT MY PARTS! BUT A GOOD DEAL FOR!
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

Pintosopher

Quote from: dianne on April 16, 2014, 08:04:29 AM
I'm thinking as most my cars will be pretty mechanically finished and on to more bodywork and paint, that the Pinto really needs something more than a 2000. The car has hardly any pickup and go to be honest, not like a 1.6 or 1.7 in a BMW. I seem to find a bunch of 2.8 V6 bronco motors on Craigslist locally and at junk yards.

My Mustang II Ghia Sport Coupe has a 2.8 V6 and it's pretty darn peppy. My mechanic told me it's the same motor in the Bronco and something else that I forgot. The Pinto is really one of my favs and I even let the Maverick go over it. The only problem is how slow the thing is. It probably has a lot of miles left on the engine in there since Dave rebuilt the top, but it's not a very strong engine.

The only issue I have with a V6 is the tapping sound. I hear it around old broncos, on my Mustang, on many cars using that old Ford V6.

I know it's a decent engine. Did the Pinto have a V6 option back then in 1973? Would it be better off if I got another rollerblock 302 and put it in the Pinto? I kind of like having some power when I step on the gas. The V6 would work, but I friggin hate the tapping noise. Not like a Boss with solid lifers you know!

What's the deal with the lifters? Is a 302 just as easy to put in there?
Diane,
When you say the 2.0L has little pickup, I have to ask "compared to what?" My Pinto stock engine back in 1985 had little power , even with a hooker header, I tried multiple tweaks on many types of progressive Holley/Autolite/ Weber 32/36 carbs. I even removed the Choke shaft and Butterflies and radiused the Air horns. Then I "massaged"  the extra intake manifold I had and tried that, but little improvement except a slight increase in throttle response.  Then I tried the Weber 38/38 DGAS that bolted to the manifold, fabbed a cable bracket , and went with a manual cable choke ...and BAM ! Wheelspin from first though 2nd and a chirp in third. All this with a Limited slip and 3:40 gears, and 9-1/2" wide tires. A slight jetting adjustment for a stumble just off idle and we were off to the races.  This motor is starved for fuel with a emissions jetted carb. If you have no smog check , than you have your answer. Unless you're like me and secretly wish to open the hood and see 6 velocity stacks and make Ferrari noises when you wing it! ;D
How unique shall you expression of Pinto be? Time will tell!
I'm sure Dave is smiling right now!

Hmm , We just keep grinning and ask for more!

Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Chopchop

The 2.8 is a fine motor but like bbobcat said, hop up parts are pretty tough to come by.  The last I checked, I couldn't even find a cam for one.
At best you'll find an old Offy 4 barrel intake, maybe a cam and perhaps some headers.

As parts are readily available, you can build a 2.3 any day to have a LOT more power than a 2.8 and core engines for 2.3's are a dime a dozen. 
Like the 2.3, the 2.8 is pretty heavy but it's become a truly oddball engine. 

Also, I think the Broncos had 2.9's.  I believe it's the same block but different heads.  2.8's were earlier engines (I'll estimate the 2.8's were pre-1980?)
I believe the Taurus / Tempo 3.0 litre 60* V-6's were the same basic Cologne {Germany} block but you're getting into a world of fuel injection and computers with them and in stock form they were only good for like 140 hp.  A stock 2.8 with a carb from a late 70's Mustang would be around 95 horse and 140 torque.

I think you're better off to build a 2.3, swap in a 2.3 Turbo from a TurboCoupe or go with a V8.
I love the 2.8, have one in my Triumph.  It's coupled to a 5 speed from an '87 Ranger and have driven it 100% trouble free to both the Atlantic and the Pacific.



It is a great engine, gets me good mileage but is heavy, obsolete and not as powerful (in stock form) as it should be.  Plain and simple, if you're going to go through all the hassle, you might as well go big instead of doing a ton of work to realize a 25-ish horsepower gain.


Dave

dianne

I have to think about it. I could find headers for the 2.8 and other rebuild kits. But what about the 4.0 V6, is that the same size?
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

bbobcat75

THE OTHER THING WITH THE 2.8 THEY WHERE KNOWN FOR BLOWING HEAD GASKETS - MY 75 HAD A BLOWN HEAD GASKET WITH 28,000 ORIGINAL MILES!!  AND AS FAR AS PARTS GO IN TALKING ANY PERFORMANCE PARTS! THEY ARE NON EXSISTANT! THE 2.3 IS EVERY WHERE!! PLUS YOU CAN GET BETTER TRANSMISSION OPTIONS WITH A 2.3!

JUST MY 2 CENTS
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

dianne

I don't see any 2.3 engines, other than Hondas, on Craigslist here. Plenty of 2.8 V6 engines. They sold a lot of 2.8 engines, so you don't think the 2.8 has a lot of parts available? I have one in my Mustang II Ghia though.

I guess I'll forget the 302 in there...
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

bbobcat75

IT FITS BUT WITH A SHOE HORN!! LOL   if a v8 fits then the v6 has to fit but is not a lot of fun to work on - not much room- even more so with factory a/c! but does have more pep then my 2.3 - but for reliability and gas mileage my 2.3t will smoke my 2.8 all day long! plus parts availability are tough for the 2.8 been its a German motor and old motor - most have been scraped - the 2.3 there are a ton of them and parts are super easy to find and can build one to out run the v6 pretty easily!
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

dianne

Oh, I didn't know. I heard they were German engines.

So does this engine just fit in there!
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

bbobcat75

THE LIFTER NOISE IS JUST A PART OR CHARATER OF THE ENGINE - BUT YOU CAN ADJUST VALVE SPRINGS AND GET THEM TO BE PRETTY QUIET! MY 75 HATCH WAS LIKE A DIESEL WHEN RUNNING! BUT A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE EX FORD TECH FROM THE 70'-90'S TOOK IT IN HIS SHOP AND MAN IT RUNS LIKE A TOP!!!  AND IS VERY QUIET!! MY 2.3 IS LOUDER NOW!!
ONLY REAL ISSUE I HAVE SEEN WITH THE 2.8 IN A PINTO/BOBCAT IS KEEPING THEM COOL!  GOOD LUCK

1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

DBSS1234

Early 2.8 V-6 engines are also solid lifter engines. So the tapping you hear is just like the boss 302, the lifters.

dianne

I'm thinking as most my cars will be pretty mechanically finished and on to more bodywork and paint, that the Pinto really needs something more than a 2000. The car has hardly any pickup and go to be honest, not like a 1.6 or 1.7 in a BMW. I seem to find a bunch of 2.8 V6 bronco motors on Craigslist locally and at junk yards.

My Mustang II Ghia Sport Coupe has a 2.8 V6 and it's pretty darn peppy. My mechanic told me it's the same motor in the Bronco and something else that I forgot. The Pinto is really one of my favs and I even let the Maverick go over it. The only problem is how slow the thing is. It probably has a lot of miles left on the engine in there since Dave rebuilt the top, but it's not a very strong engine.

The only issue I have with a V6 is the tapping sound. I hear it around old broncos, on my Mustang, on many cars using that old Ford V6.

I know it's a decent engine. Did the Pinto have a V6 option back then in 1973? Would it be better off if I got another rollerblock 302 and put it in the Pinto? I kind of like having some power when I step on the gas. The V6 would work, but I friggin hate the tapping noise. Not like a Boss with solid lifers you know!

What's the deal with the lifters? Is a 302 just as easy to put in there?
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied