Mini Classifieds

79 pinto headlight,tailight,side marker light assemblies

Date: 07/17/2018 09:22 pm
Rally spoiler wanted
Date: 05/04/2017 01:32 pm
Bumpers
Date: 07/06/2018 04:47 pm
hubcaps

Date: 06/05/2018 09:13 pm
Bumper, grill and fender wanted
Date: 12/24/2016 04:13 pm
Holley 2305 progressive 2 bbl carb 350cfm

Date: 10/11/2019 11:13 am
Oil pan front sump style
Date: 01/10/2017 09:19 am
74 Wagon Interior
Date: 01/22/2017 06:38 pm
Wanted 73 pinto squire wagon
Date: 05/09/2020 11:59 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,573
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 1,185
  • Online ever: 1,681 (March 09, 2025, 10:00:10 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 511
  • Total: 511
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

cut radiator support help

Started by 79prostreet, April 13, 2014, 07:21:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

79prostreet

Just add water! all water lines are done, oil lines are done,fuel system complete and the list gets shorter.
79prostreet

79prostreet

Found a little more time to work on the hot rod,made support bar and was able to mount thermostat housing to it.  Now need to build upper head/ radiator lines. Bud
79prostreet

amc49

It does look better from different angles. Sorry about the scare there.

79prostreet

amc49, I think if you go to my gallery you will get a better view of those bars. the rest of the cage is 1 3/4 and welded by a certified welder, we thought just to help make the front more ridged we would add those front bars. I am thankful for an extra set of eyes and opinions to help me with my build, I do want to build it right the first time. Can't build it to safe! Bud
79prostreet

amc49

Too small, the tubing needs to be bigger OD. Hope it's chromoly. The point was, you don't run the tubing parallel to the fender mount bars, you drop down (and swing in as well to compound multiple angles) to triangulate, any support added does not parallel any of that either. Different angle provides much more strength.

Yours of course and not trying to tell you what to do but you take risk once you do this on your own. We knew a guy who did his own and substandard materials and application to make a roll cage chassied car that didn't look bad at all but a combination of multiple errors there and it began when an engine exploded, the pieces fired sideways to cut the brake and fuel lines (inboard and illegal install there) and took out parts of chassis he welded up. WAY too easy. The car then caught fire at over 100 mph and flames entered the cabin through holes punched in firewall, he ended up bailing physically out of the car at around estimated 70-80 mph and clothes on fire. Probably good thing too, the car literally came apart at his welding when it then impacted concrete guardrail after he bailed. Thin wall steel that bent and cracked easily.

We had worked on it a time or two at the shop, he got the third degree about the lacking throttle return he had on tunnel ram, he swore he'd fix it. Later (before the above) he was involved in a wreck when he did a burnout where he stored car at storage facility and the throttles both stuck WFO. He lost it, car peeled through three storage buildings all unoccupied luckily and then finally plowed into a concrete retaining wall, the next thing was out on open freeway crossing at ninety degree angle. Lucky not killed then either. He survived both but smartly quit drag racing.

Not saying you at all, but once you cross the line to where YOU become the engineer, just like him you must look at EVERYTHING six times, then if it seems OK look again. Easy to forget lives can be on the line while having all the fun.

One day may tell you how we were involved in killing a guy by the same lacking of attention to details.......................not proud of it.

79prostreet

amc49, I fully understand what you are saying, I do plan to add angle bars when I get to a place when I know I have room(10# in a5#area). The tubes are 1 1/4 dom 1/8'' wall.  The thin bar are fender mount.
79prostreet

amc49

Man too much parallel in there for me, the lower added pipe almost parallel with the top runner to radiator, can't really tell from pic supplied though. The second added vertical brace is too close to same angle as the other longer one also. No triangulation there at all and weight with no strength. The downleg coming from firewall is too small OD too, what wall thickness there and what type tubing?

Yes, you don't have to have the radiator support or that part of the box, but what you replace it with must be very stout. Unibody convolutes angle changes literally everywhere, that is what gives it such strength with still being light. The angles all interfere with each other at crash time, parallel pipes all fold when only one does, the one folding takes them all down. But if they all attack at different angles then the stress must break or bend them all individually. A lot harder to do.

I could be full of it of course and not trying to slam the work. you just get an eye for what works well after looking at a 1000 different race cars.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on April 14, 2014, 10:55:32 PM
Yes a bar would help, but if it was me I would make a front motor plate. But why couldn't you put a bolt right under the top bolt??..
One thing your missing is there is no inter fender panels at all. This is where most of the support comes from to brace the core support. With a full cage plus the cage comes through the firewall and braces the sub frame rails, the only thing the core support does is mount the radiator. If it was my car I would run a removable cage bar across from one side to the other like "Mashcars" have in front of the motor. Just remember that this car is a street driven stock car and as such, the core support has very little to do, and could be removed all together. 
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

74 PintoWagon

Yes a bar would help, but if it was me I would make a front motor plate. But why couldn't you put a bolt right under the top bolt??..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Scott Hamilton

Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

79prostreet

One of the problems with 2 bolts is room, I'm thinking between the hood latch assembly and my front roll bar additions along with a bar that will run across from one side to the other above the water pump area it should be ridged enough. Also the motor is solid mounted with mid plate. sound good?  Bud
79prostreet

amc49

Yes, need at least two bolts each side or it can twist. The unibody actually derives a bit of support from that member, it helps keep the front in a box shape. I would probably go even a bit further and put plates across the front to tie down in that plane as well-that way the small welded in pieces not overstressed to crack out around the bolts.

I did that same trick on Tempos at the rear cross-structure above and under the back seats LOL. It allowed me to put 8 foot long lumber directly in the car and 100% contained with trunk lid closed. When done I simply bolted the sub-structure back in and threw down the seat. Maybe 3-4 minutes. I've never had a pickup and every time I ever wanted to buy one, the overriding idea was gas mileage, I do not use the PU enough to justify the loss in mileage. So back to 4dr. cars at every purchase. You should see the looks I got at the Home Depot when someone walked up while I was loading. Priceless. I had guys thinking they were seeing things.

We also did the same idea to AMX race cars since the under engine cross member attached to frame and lower LCAs and a b-tch to pull oil pans. Much more substantial though, it had to be bulletproof. Pans yanked in 10 minutes after that mod.

74 PintoWagon

That came out nice, think I would add another bolt on each side though..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

jeremysdad

You planning to pull both front wheels on launch, I would guess, from the motor pics?

You're going to 'test' it and then weld to replace the bolts once you pre-load?

Otherwise, add more bolts. At least. :) lol

Other than that, beautiful, seriously. Just bookmarked it as an idea. :)

79prostreet

I thought I would post some pic's of how I cut my radiator support and put it back in so I can still use the hood latch and grill mounting points. It's not to hard if you have a grinder, drill and a welder. Bud
79prostreet