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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

roller cam?

Started by waldo786, April 08, 2014, 09:31:34 PM

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dick1172762

EXHAUST. If you really want to understand / use / be helped by it, go to http://www.maxracesoftware.com and get Larry Meaux's "Pipemax" software. And if that is not enough for you, get your self a copy of "Design and Simulation of four-stroke Engines" by PHD Gordon Blair. It is SAE # R-186 and 825 pages of all there is to know about exhaust and induction.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

On the subject of noise................there is a quality of noise side to that, you hear say leaking exhaust that is louder but sounds like crap, that is no better and may run worse. Tuned engines though will develop a certain note that to the trained ear instantly makes them stand out, think Nascar. I love to hear the in car sound bites they have there. I think in terms of bike stuff where you can actually tell what the rider is feeling by listening to the engine as it runs, at some point it begins to blend together in that certain sound that has wave tuning coming into play all over it. When the individual exhaust pulses disappear and then noise turns into a solid howl or roar. The engine at that point actually begins to get louder, the waves are all in synch with the hard parts then. Most exotic I ever got to play with was Honda CBX six with 6-1 header, I see why so many of those Italians left their wives for a V-12 engined car.

If you keep the velocity up in the intake and exhaust sides of the engine you don't get or far less of that. Wave tuning cries out for both sides of engine as unrestricted as possible. We used to run simple bolt on header mufflers back in the day and I can personally attest to how you can get another 75 hp. by simply pulling a best of the best full exhaust pipe system off the car and replacing with those. More than one vehicle, hell the Boss 302 picked up MIDRANGE by dropping the full pipes, we ran it forever with two big diameter Cherry Bombs only after that for years. So, keep talking about velocity in the entire pipe, you lost me there.


amc49

The links are interesting................

Magnaflow.............'Answer: Don't be fooled! Bigger is not better! Many people think that having the biggest diameter pipe is the best way to make power.
Not true. Due to a variety of factors, extensive testing is required.'

So, how can they state all that as perceived fact if the last sentence is true????........................LOL

The second link, exhaust videos.............problems again. They simply take the same 'certain figured mass of air' amounts and plug them into a formula like you do with trying to find the ideal carburetor size for a certain engine size. It DOESN'T WORK. My old 360 ATX Javelin figured out at a 600 cfm carb at 5000 rpm, the stock Ford 4300 on it had 650 cfm, huh. I put a 800 cfm Holley DP on it and the car dropped a half second in the 1/4 mile and ran great even at lower wide open throttle conditions (3.15 gear) , in short the engine loved it. Couldn't make it bog at all, it pulled hard from 2000 rpm. Over the years I have tossed the prefigured carb size out again and again, first thing you find out is that all engines are NOT created equal, A GM or Ford or Mopar engine of same size will often perform radically different with same size car even if it is optimized for that particular engine. I found that SBF like 302 couldn't handle the same big carb I ran on my crap little 304 AMC with its' puny 1.78 and 1.40 valves. Boss 302 was a totally different issue though, that car loved the bigger carbs, we ran an 850 on it until the tunnel ram with two 750s on it. It's all about the total combination picked there.

People keep saying you have to have the 'velocity, it's all about the velocity' but it's not. When you go for hi-perf you look for 1 inch or less of vacuum (surprise! less velocity) at top rpm showing correct carb size and as low a restriction exhaust (open if possible) as you can get. When you start talking this or that velocity you are heavily giving away power there to me, it all becomes a compromise, what will you give up in performance to get this or that in real world useability? Velocity in the intake means you have restriction, same thing in exhaust. I'm not saying it all is bad but if after maximum power it is. You then draw the line as to how far you'll go; the tradeoff.

jeremysdad

On the exhaust theory, I had my glasspack replaced with 2" pipe, straight out the back...sounds fantastic, and feels more peppy.

Can noise equal perception of felt horsepower? Probably.

Does it actually run better? Yes...yes it does.

And it sounds awesome. :)

jeremysdad

Quote from: dick1172762 on April 17, 2014, 12:07:48 PM
Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct. ???? What am I missing here or is it to another Richard on here?

You can't slip 'dick' (<--I stand corrected. lol) past the filter. So, it's the formal 'Richard' in posts, and I assume the spelling out of the numbers was meant to be humorous, along those lines.

In short, it was a joke. ;)

Eta (all bolded items): So I'm confused, now, as well. lol

amc49

You guys are killing me................

The book referenced above, unless it has been updated, shows virtually nothing about roller cams although it goes into rocker geometry a decent amount. Mine doesn't anyway, and great amounts of it committed to memory just like all the other intensive engine tech books I have. Yunick. Jenkins, Atherton, the like. I like reading Vizard but in some ways he's off the mark to me. Like the part about half lift and carb standoff. Standoff happens when the intake rammed-by-inertia mass hits a closed valve at the end of the intake event. Half lift has no effect there, you're NOT at half lift. If half lift is good then the column should be a bigger one and the effect worse. If bad at half lift standoff (reversion) will be less but no matter, engine's not making any power then. Half lift is valuable because you go through it TWICE versus only once for full lift. It really has no effect at idle either since the idle mixture is so under negative pressure. The engine has trouble pulling in with ANY size hole at that time because it is pulling down against the carb butterflies. That restriction pales the lift at cam, almost any lift past barely open that allows engine to draw against carb will work. The size of valve pocket affects reversion but so does all the rest and most importantly the intake plenum size, it is the reversion absorber. Why the chase for IR intakes on big prostock engines in the early '70s failed so miserably. You can't stop reversion with big individual cylinders and intake runners with no connection between them. The control of air mass becomes harder and harder the greater the size of the mass. Why smaller engines make more hp/cu.in. than big ones do. Simple physics.

I have one other big disagreement with Vizard and that is his idea that if intake speed is to be kept high then exhaust must as well all the way down to make power. No. NO no. Missing something very basic there. WHY if that is true then does every engine on the planet with truly wave/pressure tuned exhaust run BETTER WITH NO EXHAUST PIPE AT ALL, the exhaust exits the header pipe end to SLOW DOWN GREATLY??? Take that idea and go BACKWARDS with it, you can increase in exponential amounts the amount of power a two stroke engine makes by dropping exhaust speed slower in incredible amounts and even by choking it to reverse BACKWARDS. The ideas work on four strokes as well, simply harder to implement them.

Exhaust tuning is nowhere near that simple, it is about speeding up or slowing down the flow to get the effect you want....................I will submit to you that if you have fast velocity in the tailpipe all the way down you are actually restricting the engine, the velocity itself is proof of that. Velocity goes up with push behind it, that push itself is restriction. Sorry Dave.

More. I have never seen any muffler that makes the flow change direction work as well as a simple straight through muffler that does not change direction. Never. The physics say no, the turn is a flow killer. Of course you will not get the noise control on a straight through you can get with a double U-turn muffler, the reduction in noise is evidence the muffler also kills power. We had a saying at Dad's shop, 'noise is horsepower', while not always true, it is often enough. Engines make more power when you use physics to make them wave tuned, that tuning is with SOUND waves.

Dig up the book 'The Scientific Design of Intake and Exhaust Systems' but be prepared for some boring reading, it is written by quants for quants only.

Pinto5.0

'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Pinto5.0

Quote from: dick1172762 on April 17, 2014, 12:07:48 PM
Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct. ??? ? What am I missing here or is it to another Richard on here?

My name's Keith so it ain't me lol. Phone number without the area code?
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Clydesdale80

The numbers are your name? and you are correct about pipe sizing.
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

dick1172762

Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct. ???? What am I missing here or is it to another Richard on here?
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

Richard one, one, seven, two, seven, six two is correct.  :-) While reducing back pressure is part of the goal you do not want it to also reduce the velocity of the exhaust. So, going too big can be a problem.  And remember at lower RPM's the volume of exhaust will also be less.  Just like we have progressive two barrel carburetors in a more ideal world we would have similar exhausts. A rather small pipe for general driving and another for larger throttle open applications.  Cost and space become factors.

Here is a couple of links regarding pipe sizing:
http://www.magnaflow.com/07techtips/faq/question10.asp
http://www.exhaustvideos.com/faq/how-to-calculate-muffler-size-pipe-diameter/


dick1172762

That's the right muffler. What makes it so good is there is a curved baffles at the end of the tubing which directs the exhaust to go back in the other direction where most turbo mufflers have nothing to redirect the exhaust. Good muffler.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: dick1172762 on April 17, 2014, 08:43:26 AM
   For a motor that will not see over 3000 rpm, I would go with a 2" pipe max. The Ranger header only has a 2" outlet so the 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" pipe would do nothing but kill torque big time. You must remember that a 2300 is a tractor motor compared to todays engines. The Walker Super Turbo is a very good muffler, but only the super turbo. Has a nice sound to it but not to loud. In this case, bigger is not better. BTW all of the glass packs I have looked at have a 2" core regardless of the inlet or outlet size. 2 1/2" in and out does nothing if the core is 2".

Great, looks like I need to buy some 2" tubing & some mandrel bends. I know we drifted from the original post a bit but if this is about torque & power from a roller then it's related.

Is this the muffler?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Walker-Exhaust-Muffler-Super-Turbo-2-Inlet-2-Outlet-Steel-Aluminized-Each-/390802978706?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5afdac3792&vxp=mtr
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

74 PintoWagon

Didn't measure mine, but yeah don't want to go bigger than the header, be a torque killer for sure.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

   For a motor that will not see over 3000 rpm, I would go with a 2" pipe max. The Ranger header only has a 2" outlet so the 2 1/4" or 2 1/2" pipe would do nothing but kill torque big time. You must remember that a 2300 is a tractor motor compared to todays engines. The Walker Super Turbo is a very good muffler, but only the super turbo. Has a nice sound to it but not to loud. In this case, bigger is not better. BTW all of the glass packs I have looked at have a 2" core regardless of the inlet or outlet size. 2 1/2" in and out does nothing if the core is 2".
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on April 16, 2014, 11:50:35 PM

My biggest fear with the big cam in an otherwise stock-ish engine would be a lack of torque in 5th gear below 3000 RPM going up a hill at 65 mph. I think the roller will let it climb a hill in 5th versus having to downshift with the big cam since I plan to keep the 3.18 rear gear. I'm hoping for around 2500 RPM in 5th at 70 mph & 20 mpg out of it.

The exhaust is the only thing I'm unsure about. I need to scour the muffler threads for a good choice. I have 2 1/4" & 2 1/2" pipe & everything from glasspacks to Flowmaster mufflers in the garage to choose from. I'm unsure what's the best choice for a non turbo daily driver to squeeze mpg's out of it.
Yeah, that's the problem with tiny motors they can make power but you have to buzz the snot out of them, found that out with my Boss302 :-[

Don't want to go too big on the exhaust either, I would think 2 1/4 would do it unless you're going to build something that's really gonna breath heavy???..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on April 16, 2014, 11:12:27 PM
Yeah, daily transportation is not really a good choice for experiments,lol,

Sounds like a good package ought to get good mileage out of that..

My biggest fear with the big cam in an otherwise stock-ish engine would be a lack of torque in 5th gear below 3000 RPM going up a hill at 65 mph. I think the roller will let it climb a hill in 5th versus having to downshift with the big cam since I plan to keep the 3.18 rear gear. I'm hoping for around 2500 RPM in 5th at 70 mph & 20 mpg out of it.

The exhaust is the only thing I'm unsure about. I need to scour the muffler threads for a good choice. I have 2 1/4" & 2 1/2" pipe & everything from glasspacks to Flowmaster mufflers in the garage to choose from. I'm unsure what's the best choice for a non turbo daily driver to squeeze mpg's out of it.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

74 PintoWagon

Yeah, daily transportation is not really a good choice for experiments,lol,

Sounds like a good package ought to get good mileage out of that..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on April 16, 2014, 09:28:48 PM
Go for it.. :D

I'm tempted to stick it in the 87 Mustang 2.3 that's going in my wagon with a T5 but since it's my driver I'll be hard pressed to swap it back out if drivability suffers. If it was a weekend cruiser I wouldn't think twice.

Instead I'm going with a Ranger roller, Ranger header, 2 1/2" exhaust, D-port carb intake & I think I'm gonna splurge on a brand new Weber 32/36 DFEV in the hopes that I can break 20 mpg & not have to touch this car again until I'm ready to strip it for the parts. That's 2 or 3 years down the road at least.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on April 16, 2014, 09:20:25 PM
I have a nice slider for my buggy that's .495 int/exh, 226 dur@.050 & has a 125 centerline. I'd love to try it on the street & see how it feels.
Go for it.. :D
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Pinto5.0

I have a nice slider for my buggy that's .495 int/exh, 226 dur@.050 & has a 125 centerline. I'd love to try it on the street & see how it feels.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Pintosopher

This might be entirely off the topic, but it is related. Before anyone gets excited about cam dynamics and Specs, if your goal is a solid punch of torque and bump in HP.. Remember this, An engines valves open and close so the flow rate at half lift is critical to avoid having issues with fuel standoff or exhaust scavenging problems that lead to lost power or idle issues. The port and valve stem shapes can make a world of difference here, even when the cam is not Spec radical. I'm quoting the Vizard Book on "How to Hop Up the 2.0 liter OHC Engine". In fact , the Book covers the issues with Roller cams and Rockers extensively, and there is much to be considered, given the Build of the motor, and Rpm ranges of usage.

Can of worms , But Old school N/A dynamics can't be ignored.

Pintosopher, Lobe centers aligned , Moderate on the lumps, Duration questionable
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

amc49

No way will that cam approach a stock (roller or otherwise) cam in terms of driveability below 2000 rpm. NO WAY. Bringing lobe centers in closer will have it loping at idle pretty good. Gas mileage in town will be a disaster. I really don't care what the cam rpm limits say, often they are impossible in the real world. Bringing in lobe centers advances the intake and good for low rpm but any amount also increases overlap, they tend to cancel each other out. The way to get true power off dead idle is low overlap and short duration intake period so the intake closing is early at low rpm. Or, a stock cam. You need less than 220 degrees at .050" to pull at 1500 on these. Stockers are usually around 200-205 on the intake side.

The 2267 at top is close to same duration and centerline already lowered, less lift but INCREASES the minimum rpm number, less lift does not do that. So, one cam number set argues with another. Common, some of the rpm ranges are out to lunch there. Your chosen cam being one.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: Pinturbo75 on April 16, 2014, 07:45:55 AMthe hla's are the same for any hydrolic cam unless the cam requires shiming and then wide groove hla's would be needed so they could still recieve oil.

Good to know. I need to hit a Pik-a-Part & nab a couple rollers
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Pinturbo75

that cam would require removal of the head and machining of the guide bosses.... the amount of lift from that profile would cause the retainers to hit the valve seals.... anything over about 450 lift requires this machining to be done.....

the hla's are the same for any hydrolic cam unless the cam requires shiming of the hla's and then wide groove hla's would be needed so they could still recieve oil..
75 turbo pinto trunk, megasquirt2, 133lb injectors, bv head, precision 6265 turbo, 3" exhaust,bobs log, 8.8, t5,, subframe connectors, 65 mm tb, frontmount ic, traction bars, 255 lph walbro,
73 turbo pinto panel wagon, ms1, 85 lb inj, fmic, holset hy35, 3" exhaust, msd, bov,

Pinto5.0

Are the lifters used in the roller cam heads standard hydraulic 2.3 lifters or are they specific to roller cams?
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Chopchop

I just happened to be communicating with Esslinger over the last few days.  I told them I need more power in the 1500-4000 RPM range and asked them what they recommended.

Although this is certainly not a Ranger roller cam, they said, "We would go with our pn# 2261 with a change in lobe center.  I would decrease the lobe separation angle to 107 deg. That should help perk it up in your rpm range!"

This is the link to their cam specs page :

http://www.esslingeracing.com/catalog/page05.pdf

From that page, the Part Number 2261 cam has :

Dur.@.050 = 229/240
Int./Exh. Lift = 486/487
Adv Dur = 270/286
Center line = 117

According to the notes on the cam, "Spirited Street, Stock Head, 5200 to 350 Carb" and the power range is 1800 - 5500   and it's for a hydraulic lift, flat tappet 2300 engine.

I only have a very faint idea what any of that means but hopefully someone here can decipher the specs and compare that cam to a Ranger roller cam? 

Dave

amc49

The frictional differences are nil. Main reason for roller would be durability but since the rollers do not contact all the way around some argument there too. Rollers work with less oil pressure and why you can run 15 psi like on bike motor and engine last forever, same engine in plain bearing needs like 60-70 psi. So some difference since oil pump loads more, more parasitic hp loss.

The difference in rollers on sliding cam lobes is obvious.

74 PintoWagon

Roller cam bearings have been used in Chevy, Ford, Mopar and Pontiac that I know of maybe even more I don't know(always way out of my budget), but Sprint, NASCAR and Pro Stock all used them at one time, don't here much about them anymore so I don't know if they're still being used or not, lot of discussions out there about them though, kinda like oil discussions,LOL..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

Bruce Cower built a Hemi Desoto engine in the 50's for an indy car with all roller bearings on the cam, rocker arms, crank shaft, and rods. It ran great but no better than one with plain bearings. It slipped out of gear trying to qualify and went to over 10 grand, and blew up big time. End of project, but Cower did sell roller bearing cams after that for a while.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.