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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Rust Removal

Started by dianne, March 01, 2014, 12:39:18 PM

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dianne

Quote from: map351 on March 06, 2014, 08:09:02 PM
If you live in a hot dry climate leave it alone, but epoxy gives excellent adhesion & you can apply fillers over the epoxy without sanding within a reasonable amount of time if it sets over 36 hr's just dust a fresh coat on.

Mike

I'm in a dry climate here, some rain, but in the valley it's pretty dry and - murder on your skin though. But they have lacquer epoxy primer also. I might get that next when I get my refill and this car is in the garage now :)
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

map351

Quote from: dianne on March 06, 2014, 06:48:17 PM
Dang. So I have to take all the primer off and redo it even if it's sitting in a garage?

If you live in a hot dry climate leave it alone, but epoxy gives excellent adhesion & you can apply fillers over the epoxy without sanding within a reasonable amount of time if it sets over 36 hr's just dust a fresh coat on.

Mike
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

dianne

Dang. So I have to take all the primer off and redo it even if it's sitting in a garage?
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

map351

Quote from: dianne on March 06, 2014, 04:54:49 PM
No, just regular lacquer primer.

You need to use Epoxy the metal will rust under Laq primer it absorbs moisture.
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

dianne

No, just regular lacquer primer.
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

map351

Quote from: dianne on March 06, 2014, 09:42:58 AM
Would putting a coat of lacquer primer be good enough? Or do I also need to treat it? I've already primed a lot of areas I removed rust from on my Mustang, Pinto and Maverick. Should I re-strip those areas?


Did you use any metal Prep before you primered? Is the primer Epoxy?
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

dianne

Would putting a coat of lacquer primer be good enough? Or do I also need to treat it? I've already primed a lot of areas I removed rust from on my Mustang, Pinto and Maverick. Should I re-strip those areas?
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

map351

When your done stripping the panel spray a light coat of WD-40 it will stop the surface rust & doesn't cause a problem when it's time to paint.

On rusted surfaces get some Ospho from your local hardware store brush of a light coat it will never rust again & it's doesn't cause a paint issue.

http://www.ospho.com/

Mike
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

dianne

Well, we'll see how good I do I guess. These are small spots so I'm hoping I get 'em ;)
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

nnn0wqk

Soda blasting works good for paint removal and will not hurt your chrome handles or glass but it does nothing to the rust. I have a commercial pot and have done a fair amount of paint removal but the rust will always be there. The nice thing about the soda, it protects the metal from rusting until you neutralize it from the soda. Sand blasting you need to prep it right afterwards or it will start rusting again before your eyes just from the moisture in the air. And once you neutralize the metal from the soda you better be ready to prep it as it is instant rust again too. I use a product called hold tight 102 to clean up after the soda and it really helps to hold the rust off for up to 48 hours. I have heard of people dipping their body tubs to have them clean but that also =$$$. I used to use phosphoric acid as that is safe on the metal and deadly on rust but can not find a source for it any longer. Thanks EPA! It is the active part of navel jelly and some of the other rust removers. PPG I think still sells it as a metal prep before painting. The thing I always liked about dipping was you knew every crack was gotten into. But it takes a very large vat to do a body shell. All I ever did was doors, hoods, etc. Good luck in what ever direction you go.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

sleepypinto

On some light rust pits you might try the purple 3m clean strip discs, they work nice in small places. Blasting is the best way to remove rust. Keep the sandblaster away from your glass it will immediately etch it, and seal up the engine very well. Try not to use silica sand, black beauty is better on your health, that being said stay well ventilated. While on the subject baking soda can be used on very delicate items, I use it on carburetors, because the baking soda dissolves in warm water. You can make a soda blaster with a blowgun and plastic tubing, lots on YouTube on that. Restoration work is a very dirty and daunting task, I do bodywork for a living, lol rust is the enemy!
1979 ford pinto

dianne

Grinding blasting and cutting and replacing should do it :D
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

pintoguy76

I think I am going to have to blast my car AND replace the  inner and outter quarter panels and passengers floorboard. Even then I don't know if I can keep the rust from coming back or not. :-(
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

dianne

Actually I just bought a small portable blaster on ebay.

They are inexpensive and I think my compressor will work fine with it.
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

dianne

Yeah, I use walnut shells for cleaning my casings when I reload. But I'll figure it out, I may just grind it and see how thin it is and decide if I want to sand or glass blast sections. I'm doing this myself because blasting costs a LOT of money, around 1,000 a car from calling around.

Thanks for the advise though AMC...
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

amc49

NOTHING can STOP rust except getting it all off then covering it to prevent entry of water. A physical law.

'using glass or something else will leave micro materials'

You misunderstood and my bad. The glass leaves like a velveety surface that has absolutely awesome tooth for paint. Primer easily fills it smoothly. What I said was that the glass gets into the micro-cracks and pores that the last of the rust particles hide in to be able to start the process all over. It gets the rust out of them, not stays in itself. That is rare, I clean spark plugs after glass beading them sometimes one or two particles get stuck up inside, a pin or somesuch easily pulls them out. I've saved hundreds of dollars there alone.

Find someone who does the work and then look at results. Bigger particles make bigger dents to like lightly ding the surface, you control that by changing the media. Same Idea used on shotpeening like connecting rods for surface hardening, there you use different size hardened steel balls. The 'Almen arc height' a measurement of the impact crater a certain size ball leaves after impact. You can blast things at metal at high speed to produce some pretty incredible effects.

Glass beading is finer than sand blasting FYI. They even blast like walnut shells on things that cannot be damaged.

amc49

Maybe?

I know I would probably be modding the unit somewhat based on performance. It of course requires shop air compressor and not just a small one. You CANNOT protect your eyes enough with one of these, the media will go every where. Once in your hair it gets in your eyes. I airhose my hair after doing it, it makes me look like a crazy Frankenstein. There may be others online with a small rubber funnel that saves a lot of it by trapping it right there. Point of funnel is entrance and big open end seals against car sheet metal as much as possible.

I did this stuff once using a big plastic tarp as a tent/floor/side cover to try to trap as much media as possible for re-use.

dianne

I can drive the Maverick. I don't need a lot of areas done, only a few. Remember I ground down the trunk also on the rear quarter thereby removing more metal. Impressed? Well, don't expect anyone to be impressed. I just want these 4 cars as the ones I drive.

Your answer isn't really that helpful since you said that using glass or something else will leave micro materials causing more issues. I guess I'll figure it out. But these products they do sell today seem to be working if the black I see is actually the rust stopped. It will be under primer and paint, and if I decide on two stage paint under 3 layers.

Thanks I guess.
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

amc49

Can anyone around you sand blast like cars for resto? The obvious problem being getting it there. Or maybe somebody has a portable one on a truck.

The logic of things, using any disc product on the market once you get down to the thin stuff you are removing great amounts of parent metal to get out small amounts of rust. Any tool you get to chisel it off same way. A function of having to get down deep in material that rusted could be .030" or .40" deep in only 060" thick material. To get that low rust you leave the panel .020" thick which is unacceptable.

With lots of work you'll get 95% of the rust out, it is the 5% that starts it again.

I'm sure we are all very impressed with the hard charging you have done to get this far yourself. Where I kind of gave up on cars. I let them run downhill but the only thing that drives me crazy is one that will not start and run perfect. Here in Fort Worth the wife and my view pretty much dashed of any hopes of keeping a really nice looking car. The last 3 'new' (actually almost new program cars) we got were all crashed into within 6 months of getting them. Past 9 o'clock half the people on road here are drunk. I had insurance fix one but not the others, rather taking the cash for them instead since I paid cash for them at purchase time. The repair job on the one was so abysmal I did the other two myself but only making them good solid and dependable with not much view for aesthetics. They're not perfect body wise but I made thousands on each one, enough to repay 30% of car price and they run perfectly. So, a pretty car vs. more money the choice there.

dianne

I know you don't AMC and I really do appreciate the advise. Heck, you loved my (or any) AMC Eagle wagon! On the Mustang for example, there were big chunks of lacquer that were gone and cracked off (has two coats 4 coats of paint with 2 primer (second on REAL heavy)) and I was able to grind that all that off using 36 grit Rhino disks. But that Maverick was in potato field for a lot of years when I got it and everything was rusty. But I got all of it under the car, engine compartment and even the trunk (I think I posted a pick of the engine and trunk). The Pinto had paint that had these little and very tiny cracks, and that was HUGE amounts of rust - got all of that - wanted to paint on the paint since it was the original first coat but the car is like 70 percent primer now with the 70 percent down to metal to get that micro rusting, for lack of a better term. You seem as mad as I do when these idiots start talking gun bans or infringing on any of my rights the same as you are with you mad at the ridiculous EPA laws. You don't see chrome shops like you used to, not one in Idaho I don't think any longer and everything here is sent to Salt Lake in Utah if you bring it to a shop and it's much cheaper to just send it yourself.

With that said and us all being friends ahahahaha What the heck do I do when I can't get way way into those little tiny rust holes. I'm pretty meticulous on these cars, all of them, and even 20 grit disks isn't getting down far enough. Should I get one of those hand held grinders I see around here? I might end up cutting through the panels. I'm old, so I want around 20 to 30 years on some of these cars and don't want to do a second restoration if I keep them. I know I don't want to lose one of these right now. What's the solution to this problem? How the heck do I get all the rust? Do these areas need to be cut out because grinding down to get the deep pockets will make it thin in those areas. I could see that being done over time. My Maverick is really a longer term project than the Mustang (I want to run it this year).

So if you have an answer, I'm all ears!






Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

amc49

I'm telling you people you can forget all that and please don't kill me for it.

The key there is WATER, any water in the product instantly sets up for surface rust that appears in less than five minutes there. The WATER does it. I have used pool acid (muriatic or hydrochloric) but part needs to stay in long enough to remove the bad rust, that can often be long enough to damage close lying areas that were not rusted. The acid does not care, it eats both metal and rust at same time even though it goes after the rust a bit more.

Anything you can buy that mixes with water or 'biodegrades' is garbage unless an acid and the acid will depend on the strength used. You rinse the acid with water and an instant protection problem there, I used to use a Felpro product that sprayed on to form a thick waxy oil coat that would protect dead clean bare steel for up to 3 years, of course you had to remove it later and prep well after doing so.

Use vinegar (acetic acid) straight, it is already so low in strength it will not hurt at all, cutting it makes it useless, it already is before that. BTDT. You can drink  it, do that with pool acid and you'll be dead in 3-4 minutes. Both acids can kill, the trick is in the concentration.

Pool acid at the strength supplied in bottles (30%?) is extremely dangerous stuff, I ruined an engine block once when someone suggested I fill water passages to remove rust. 3 hrs. later the acid ran out of side of block where it had cut a hole through water jacket. A 3/8"-24 bolt thrown in it for 30 minutes will no longer have threads on it. Now I use that stuff measured in 1-5 minutes, no more. DO NOT-I implore you-get it on your hands!!!!!!! By the time the pain starts (couple minutes) the damage is done. When I use it I have the water hose running within inches to dilute splatter that hits me.

I just dunked two cad plated pieces of steel in acid to remove the plating so I could braze it properly, they were both red rusty in 5 minutes airdry time and after blowing them off with high pressure air, which removes the water to slow that down. I have to re-prep them just before brazing but the cad is gone and why I did it.

Anything you can handle to put on side of car will not work very long before evaporation and the problem. The parts need to immerse in liquid, stay there, and just try that on a car. And in copious enough amounts to do some good, spreading a gel on there is not enough, it neutralizes and still part rusted. You'd have to use $50 worth to get anywhere. I bought a bunch once to wet dunk a bike head and remove paint from it, a mistake, the water soluable component in it then rusted all my fine parts like valve spring shims and anything else that fell to bottom of bucket. $30 worth of the 'best' paint removal stuff that could be bought. I was very upset, some of the parts were irreplaceable. It only sat overnight, maybe 12 hours and pulled water out of the air. Alcohols are what are commonly added to solvents to make them mix readily with water; I refer y'all back to my recent postings on ethanol. And how they've butchered paint removal chemicals to be dead worthless now.

I sold lots of this stuff at the store and have used a lot of it too, there is nothing over-the-counter available that does a GOOD job there. The liability issues have destroyed any usefulness of product, not that they were ever that great to begin with. I never found one person who was satisfied with the performance of those products, not one. They work on very thin rust, past that you are p-ssing in the wind. The lie is that you think you are getting somewhere but wait till you get to the end result. The 'turning black' literally means nothing, they ALL do that but the product will be on in such small amounts (not immersed, remember?) that the black simply means you have saturated the acid to neutralize it with still plenty of rust left. You will get sick of doing it twenty times and still getting black there, it never stops since at some point if true acid the black is coming from the base steel being dissolved and big mistake there.

I have not done a car in a long time but doing panels we had access to sandblasting or glass beading, which cleans it in like instant, the rust is not as hard as the steel and immediately comes up. Must use proper grit of product to produce the desired result. Dangerous (get some in eyes and it's a trip to emergency room, BTDT 3 times now for it) and messy though, but what the car restoring guys do. Kiss all that hand work goodbye..........the glass or sand gets in the microcracks that no sandpaper or grinder or stripping tool on the planet can. Look dead close at a blasted part in person and it becomes instantly evident. Even if you get all the rust off by handwork, you will always have the small pinhole rust spots, it continues to rust from those again. Thank God I do more bike restore than car, the parts are smaller and easy to make tanks to hold entire part to de-rust it. And I've spent a thousand dollars glass beading parts to do nothing else to them but wipe with alcohol and shoot paint on them.

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade but a dose of reality can save a bundle..............

Sorry dianne, I really don't hate you................................

dianne

OK, I had a big bottle of that Evapo-rust in my garage. The rust went from brown to black. That means that the rust is now stopped and the black is safe? It won't come back as rust again?
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

dianne

These are deep pockets. I'm gonna try that stuff you posted. I'll let you know how it works :)
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

74 PintoWagon

CocaCola takes surface rust off too.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dianne

Quote from: dick1172762 on March 01, 2014, 07:19:46 PM
Swimming pool acid works too, if you can stand the smell.

Hmmmm I did not know that. I know some old guys used to put pickle juice on their cars when I was younger.
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

dick1172762

Swimming pool acid works too, if you can stand the smell.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dianne

Well, I ordered that stuff already, I hope it does the trick!
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

74 PintoWagon

Yeah, I use water and vinegar quite a bit on surface rust works good, but if there's any build up at all it won't work at least it didn't for me..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dick1172762

Three parts water and one part CHEAP vinegar will do the trick. It will kill rust and then turn black which shows the rust is gone. Of course this only works on surface rust, not deep down 1/4" thick rust. Try it, what does a little vinegar cost.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.