Mini Classifieds

74 Pinto Hub Caps & Trim Rings

Date: 02/28/2018 09:37 am
Electrical
Date: 03/29/2017 11:37 am
Pinto Watch
Date: 06/22/2019 07:16 pm
72 Pinto racecar, 2.3 ARCA engine, Quaife trans
Date: 01/10/2022 03:41 pm
1979 hatch needed
Date: 05/13/2018 08:52 pm
1.6 New Ford cylinder head with side draft carbs

Date: 06/12/2018 08:18 pm
Holley 2305 progressive 2 bbl carb 350cfm

Date: 10/11/2019 11:13 am
Wanted hood hinges
Date: 02/17/2020 05:30 pm
$300 Pinto for sale

Date: 04/19/2017 10:24 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,895
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,581
  • Total Topics: 16,270
  • Online today: 1,106
  • Online ever: 3,214 (June 20, 2025, 10:48:59 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 1090
  • Total: 1090
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Have starter questions

Started by JonzWagon, February 28, 2014, 09:49:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Scott Hamilton

Yes, that is correct.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

cobra

I just read your post about the Ranger starter wiring. Am I correct to say you used all the existing wire on the Pinto solenoid ?
You just added a wire from the 's' terminal on the solenoid to the 's' connection on the Ranger starter. And of course the '+' of solenoid to the '+' of Ranger starter.

Thank you in advance for you help and information.

Scott Hamilton

Quote from: dick1172762 on March 12, 2014, 10:23:39 PM
WHO WILL BE THE FIRST? To try a Ranger starter on a 2.0.  Only time will tell.

Old thread I know and I don't know if this is the first- I think others have done it. I wanted to document on our site that the ranger 2.5 starter works great on a 2.0. Decided to do this a couple of weeks ago and had no issues installing and wiring it up. Works great. Had to run an additional wire from the starter solenoid on the ranger starter to the ignition thermal of the pinto solenoid- I found a few others ways to do this but opted for this solution. No issues currently, will post back if anything pops but it works great so far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

amc49

Yes, yes, my Dad was a flight engineer/inspection crewchief that signed off 'flight ready' on all LTV A-7 Corsair IIs just before they went up on their first flight after construction. He worked on Saturn 1B (smaller than the 5) moon rocket before that.His brother my uncle was a chief test pilot for Bell Helicopter and took US presidents up for flights around the plant. There were aircraft parts and avionics all over the house for years, Dad built his own airplanes and I was helping at 6 years old. Big deal. My younger brother currently runs the Exelon Energy power generating plant here local at Mountain Creek. Again so what? Electrical repair, computer diagnostic and networking? Yep, BTDT. Just fixed a found-by-dumpster $300 LCD 22" monitor last month, it now works fine. Bad caps in it, yanked them and changed 'em. Built many PCs back when you had to use dos to install parts. Now it's simple, just plug parts together, they do it automatically. PCBS, anybody can make them with kits out there now. BTDT too. Made my own fuel/air ratio gauge.  No school, all self taught. The newspaper printing presses up to 480V 3 phase, yeah. I worked on lots of it. I don't fear it but give it the respect it deserves. I was a firm believer in lockout-tagout, I held the final key until the job was finished and I powered the equipment back up after press repairs.

Car owner saying the battery was charged means nothing, they all say that. In short they are ALL vague as to details, they want you to do it all and generally for free. They do not and cannot generally tell you how old the battery is, how much surface charge was in it and how long it took to bleed down and did it stop bleeding and take a set or keep bleeding down. What was the end voltage when it quit bleeding down. Heck, they can't even tell you how long they charged it and fast or slow. All that figures into whether the battery was really charged at all and if it is a good battery or not worth even turning the key on. They will have no idea of how clean the connections are; you have to lead them around by the hand usually. As an electrical expert you know that. Details, it's all about the details. They generally have a good battery until it drops below 11 flat cranking, that number has always worked well for me. Assuming good connections after meter checking them. Similarly, no battery runs at 12 volts only, a new at proper specific gravity and room temp will run around 12.86 volts, they are good to crank with until they get old enough to get around 12.3 once fully charged and let sit 1 hour to bleed off surface. Below 12.3 they will begin to give trouble in varying amounts depending on car and key-on load. Most though threaten to strand you at under that 12.3 number, they seem to commonly begin to drop under the 11 number cranking around there. I have seen some oddball Honda like Civics crank as low as 10.5 volt cranking but not the norm. The starter itself can cause trouble if the amp requirement has gone out of sight because of dragging armature. In that case the battery and cables may be fine.

If I would have gotten paid say $15/hr. simply for the diagnosis I gave that cured problems at the parts store I would have been much better off. Naturally they did not want to pay for it, eventually I got tired of being bled dry with no compensation and dumped the job. People all want your help but lightning quick to shaft you when it comes to paying for it. I have a natural desire to want to help others but not like that. Why I turned down the family garage when it was offered to me for literally free. I watched Dad get ripped off again and again and not my thing to fight with the customers. I can, I just don't like it. I do far better making say $200 clear and free every time I fix something for my own personal use. Often it's much more than that. I'm getting to where I spread the knowledge far less than I used to.

Any digital knowledge is wasted on these cars, they are 100% analog, everything on them....................

I apologize for any take on being insulted, not what I'm about at all.

74 PintoWagon

Way, way, way more than me that's for sure, LOL, small world here I also worked for McDonnell Douglas(Long Beach)unfortunately it went down way too soon.. :( :( :(
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

ToniJ1960

 Thank you Dick :) like I said I have had my pinto that I have now for 28 years, it wasnt my first so you know I love Pintos.

Electronics and electricity Im not intimidated by at all, some things on cars though :(

But I signed up here nearly 6 years ago Im not going anywhere now unless I really tick off someone important.

And by the way, he worked for Curtis Wright before that, if he was still around to tell tales ...

dick1172762

Very good post tonij1960. You seem to know more about sparkeee things than the average Pinto gear head. I've been racing / driving / building Pintos since 1972 and I still don't know it all. Been afraid of electricity since I got shocked bad at the age of 10.  Now I get the wife to change light bulbs.  Like your Dad, I to, worked for McDonnell Douglas, but in Tulsa when real airplanes had those things with blades that went round and round. Please keep up the good posting on this web site that mean's so much to group of gear heads.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

ToniJ1960

 Should I have said above 11.5 and made it easier for you?

I had my current Pinto for 28 years so I know there are no such circuits standard in Pintos. I had a few before this one and another during that time. I also had a 79 z28 that occassionaly had issues with the battery cable ends.

As far as electronics go, and electrical, I was raised around electronics all my life, designing and building analog and digital circuits before I left grade school. My father worked at Mc Donnell Douglas operating the cryogenic testing equipment and was in charge of the department that tested nearly every electronic component that went into the Gemini mission. I attended college for Electronic Engineering Technology in the early 80`s.

I still design and build analog and digital circuits, produce my own printed circuit boards, and have several lab quality pieces of electronic equpiment some I designed and built.

This person stated that the battery was charged but the car started with a jump starter. There is the possibilty (especially with some vaguenes as to what he mean at times) that there was poor contact on the battery clamps, losing voltage through the resistance, and the jump starter connected to outside of the battery clamps or wherever, supplied power more directly that didnt become restricted by the poor conductivity of the cable ends. It was worth mentioning.

In my old Camaro I could turn  the key the headlights dimmed quite noticeably and the starter didnt crank (I could see  that from the drivers seat). That told me either the battery was super weak or there was a lot of resistance in the battery cables. Measuring at the battery posts at that time that the lights went dim showed the presence of voltage sufficient enough to suggest poor contact, conductivity high resistance.

Were both here trying  to help offer advice share our experience and knowledge. I appreciate the time and effort you put into doing that here, but I would appreciate if you get off my back.

amc49

'If the headlights  dim a LOT when cranking, but you have 12 volts still AT THE BATTERY while cranking.....'

An oxymoron and impossible.

You will NEVER have full 12 volts while cranking with a standard car size battery, maybe if you used three of them in parallel. The starter has a certain draw there and that draw is what you use to clearly define amps used. On top of that with full twelve volts there will be NO dimming at all. Batteries generally drop at starting to varying degrees of eleven volts and lower depending on connection and battery condition. The drop is intentional, it is normal and why you rate battery by CCA. And once you start splitting different degrees of dimness of lights, well, I'm not wading into that morass. I have tripped up many many people who thought the same thing................nothing personal of course.

FYI, I do all my own electrical repair including starter and alt repair even on computer controlled stuff. I commonly repair $200 alts for, well, the last one cost me around thirty cents for solder, been running now for a good couple years. Typically I may spend $25 getting one back up and running, these Ford early alts and starters are tinkertoys. The starters I may spend nothing getting one a new lease on life for years more. I do all my OBD II EEC-IV, EEC-V diag and repair as well. I can wire whole cars blindfolded, used to do race cars with nothing but boxes of wire. I diagnosed hundreds of cars at the parts store where I was the go to guy with charging/starting issues. Lots of funny ideas out there and the vast majority are so incorrect, like the dropping battery out of the loop to determine if alt is working, one of the fastest ways to tear up a charging system there is. That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard yet so many are willing to argue about it until you tear that argument to shreds. I did it at the drop of a hat and sold plenty of alts and other blown electrical after some person did it. Yet they would still argue that didn't do it, incredible.

Uh, the circuits I refer to that drop out headlights were commonly used in the '60s...............on common low life tiddler bikes. BEFORE Pintos..............even having the headlights on is a mistake when you are having starting troubles, you are offloading part of the available starting current to be unavailable to the starter, why on earth would you do that?

ToniJ1960

Quote from: amc49 on March 14, 2014, 12:36:49 AM
That last test as given is worthless, almost every car on the planet will dim lights somewhat when a starter is engaged. In more or less amounts but it WILL dim, even with a healthy battery and clean cable terminals. Starters pull that much voltage. Many circuits are wired to cut out the lights if they are on and starter gets engaged. It allows more power to starter.

It is not worthless or useless, but let me rephrase it in case someone may not understand the purpose of it.

If the headlights  dim a LOT when cranking, but you have 12 volts still AT THE BATTERY while cranking, you are losing the voltage due to poor conductivity in the cables or ends.

This simple test has led me in the correct direction many times over my years of owning cars.

Proper use of a volt meter, dmm or analog, can pinpoint a bad contact exactly with a few simple tests.

Newer cars may have function to take away power from trhe headlights etc during starting but we were talking about a Pinto.

amc49

That last test as given is worthless, almost every car on the planet will dim lights somewhat when a starter is engaged. In more or less amounts but it WILL dim, even with a healthy battery and clean cable terminals. Starters pull that much voltage. Many circuits are wired to cut out the lights if they are on and starter gets engaged. It allows more power to starter.

ToniJ1960

Quote from: jeremysdad on March 12, 2014, 03:47:33 PM
I don't have a 2.3, but from my experience...

I dealt with this. Twice (2 starters in...). The first time cost me a day's wages. The second, I figured out a pattern...

There are four places that a four cylinder comes to rest when you shut it off. In my case, one of these positions corresponded to a patch on the flexplate that had horribly ground teeth. The starter would engage, but didn't really have anything to engage with, so it just screeched. Horribly. Embarrassingly. Starter number 2, I figured out where it was (I could see the timing marks on the driver's side top side of the pulley), so I would manually roll the motor to just past that spot. Started every time.

Now on starter 3. Have a flexplate to swap in.

Again, not sure on the 2.3s, but I can attest that on a 2.0 (with new motor mounts) that you do not have to unbolt anything but the starter to remove the starter. Just requires some creative 'threading' of the starter. It will come out, though. I've done it 4 times (Twice in a 48 hour span due to an inept O'Reilly employee!!!).

Definitely replace all your grounds. Ground is probably the most important electrical connection, especially on a DC system. :)

I hate to pick nits, but maybe you just meant that grounds are usually more suspect. In an electrical circuit, both sides of connections are just as important (circuit-circle). Resistance in either end of a circuit connection will create voltage drop across its resistance just the same.

And I had a car just like that once had to turn the motor if it was on a bad spot or else I got the screech.

This person may want to get a post hole cleaner and make sure all the connections are clean and tight. If the batery was charged but it started with a jump starter it could be because the battery connectors werent making good contact. You can check that by turning on the headlights hit the ignition switch see if they dim. If they dim and you have good voltage at the battery itself while your cranking, the connections are bad somewhere along either cable.

dick1172762

WHO WILL BE THE FIRST? To try a Ranger starter on a 2.0.  Only time will tell.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: jeremysdad on March 12, 2014, 07:16:41 PM
They look identical. But the 2.0 has 9 teeth (automatic), 2.3 has 10 (standard). They will bolt up, if you look at housing only. Guess if someone before you just grabs a cheap starter from the junk yard, it'll engage and mount just fine. :)

All the UK starters (manual, Burton won't sell to the auto fans) have 10 teeth. Just saying.

Only the 2.0 auto takes 9 tooth? So the 10 tooth works on everything else 2.0 or 2.3?
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

jeremysdad

Quote from: Pinto5.0 on March 12, 2014, 05:12:42 PM

At a glance the German 2.0 starter looks identical to the 2.3 version. Ranger starters fit but the solenoid is on it so a little wiring needs changed to run it. Best part is it's half the size & weight & it's a high torque version.

They look identical. But the 2.0 has 9 teeth (automatic), 2.3 has 10 (standard). They will bolt up, if you look at housing only. Guess if someone before you just grabs a cheap starter from the junk yard, it'll engage and mount just fine. :)

All the UK starters (manual, Burton won't sell to the auto fans) have 10 teeth. Just saying.

Pinto5.0

Quote from: dick1172762 on March 12, 2014, 04:43:18 PM
2.3 & 2.0 bellhousing & flywheel (double drilled after market) will inter change, so why will not the starters?  2.3 starter should fit a 2.0. Right? ??? And if you want a geared starter get a 2.5 Ranger starter.

At a glance the German 2.0 starter looks identical to the 2.3 version. Ranger starters fit but the solenoid is on it so a little wiring needs changed to run it. Best part is it's half the size & weight & it's a high torque version.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

dick1172762

2.3 & 2.0 bellhousing & flywheel (double drilled after market) will inter change, so why will not the starters?  2.3 starter should fit a 2.0. Right???? And if you want a geared starter get a 2.5 Ranger starter.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

jeremysdad

I don't have a 2.3, but from my experience...

I dealt with this. Twice (2 starters in...). The first time cost me a day's wages. The second, I figured out a pattern...

There are four places that a four cylinder comes to rest when you shut it off. In my case, one of these positions corresponded to a patch on the flexplate that had horribly ground teeth. The starter would engage, but didn't really have anything to engage with, so it just screeched. Horribly. Embarrassingly. Starter number 2, I figured out where it was (I could see the timing marks on the driver's side top side of the pulley), so I would manually roll the motor to just past that spot. Started every time.

Now on starter 3. Have a flexplate to swap in.

Again, not sure on the 2.3s, but I can attest that on a 2.0 (with new motor mounts) that you do not have to unbolt anything but the starter to remove the starter. Just requires some creative 'threading' of the starter. It will come out, though. I've done it 4 times (Twice in a 48 hour span due to an inept O'Reilly employee!!!).

Definitely replace all your grounds. Ground is probably the most important electrical connection, especially on a DC system. :)

amc49

You need to look at battery and first determine CCA on it and what's OEM in the car if not original motor then what comes with that motor. Bigger number is better. If the battery has lost the CCA number they commonly use like 500 but that could pass a battery that is not correct for the car. I commonly look up in the app manual when no number is present or it is suspect, be advised most counter people will not lift a finger to do that. The battery life if 3 year 4 year 7 year ,etc, is a giveaway there too if battery has that still.

I always test battery AND alt, the tool used in the same and the battery could show as good if alt just spit guts out in the last five minutes. Rare but possible. Alt and regulator are inseparable, the alt could easily be bad and now going to toast new regulator with it, happens all the time. A dying diode or more pushes volts/amps up on regulator which is trying to make up for it, regulator then fries as well.

Get battery tested again, sometimes they pass and second time they don't especially if it's gone a bit downhill.

If battery on 4th year you aren't losing much cash changing anyway unless you have warranty paperwork, sounds like no here. In what I saw, battery life is the luck of the draw, I had a Walmart 3 year lowest of the low battery last for 11 years, you cannot run numbers any further really than at 4 years they are getting old, many, MANY fail around there. Maybe 60%-70% If you leave both cables on battery all the time when they sit then whack another year off that. 3 years? Maybe 50% OF that number I just gave, sliding ramp there, the numbers do not equal 100%. Very few make the 7 or 8 years mentioned, I'd say less than 10% That is modded by fact that everyone has second car now to not lose the all important job, if it sits long periods you are flat killing battery if not disconnecting at least one cable or trickle charging. I did it and watched battery life on the sitters go up like 50%. Cars that sit especially if a PCM on them can commonly toast battery in under 3 years, I saw it hundreds of times. Ask if they disconnect and the answer always no. One of the reasons why batteries took a whopping like 30%-40% jump several years back, they will tell you it was EPA lead disposal issues but actually it was all the goofy people who think you can leave a brand new battery in a collector car for 6 months and 'it should crank up because battery is brand new'. I watched hundreds of batteries warranty at 2 year or even 1, they just get all in your face about it and 'ka-ching!' let the cost go up.

Well, now I see it looks like alt WAS checked, the reg number 16.5 is it......good deal. That points more to battery as the problem as well. You need to check alt/reg again, it should drop to no more than 15. If old school alt 13.5 maybe as the low number. Those don't charge as much as they do now. Uh, anyone check water in battery? At 16.5 volts overcharging it would have been boiling off. Could now have a dry cell.................

I had people who come in and refuse to let you look up battery for them, rather trying to find the group used and then pick the lowest CCA they could find because it was cheaper and 'I have no money'. It got to be a huge problem, the new battery will actually crank a bit more than that but they all settle in in like a couple of months to drop that cranking edge then they come back trying to warranty for a new one claiming its gone bad. It then passes the load test based on the CCA and they go to critical mass screaming and claiming that some other employee there sold them it as the 'correct' battery. We issued enough free upgrades to bigger battery they didn't pay for I lobbied the district manager to have us look up every battery sold and to refuse any one they simply threw up on the counter. That stopped most of the loss but they sure got mad about it. So don't buy cheap battery you have fooled yourself 80% of the time.

Don't discount cable interface, the cables corrode inside sheath to go bad gradually. You have to ohm them out with them separated on both ends. If bolt on ends the two bolt connecter used can corrode cable on the bottom to affect things too. As well as one inch away terminal to post. All must be 5 ohm or less resistance. I use no corrosion protectors at all, rather like wheel bearing grease to coat the interface, i get it underneath too. Messy? Wipe it off. I've seen weird atmospherics and maybe screwy terminal lead to make an uncoated terminal corrode to where you cannot see it at all but car does not start after sitting 24 hours with new battery in it. Just weird.  Use grease and problem is gone forever. There are certain atmospheric conditions that mess up bare lead connections really quick depending I think on the alloy mix used there.

Check battery itself while just sitting, you have a voltmeter right? Any battery at 12.3 volt or less simply sitting is close to, if not exhibiting a problem. New battery at proper room temp is 12.86 volts, they work well until around 12.3 (after charging and one hour wait to discharge the surface charge all alts put in there), where some show trouble where some don't. I've seen some screwy setups like certain Hondas crank reliably at as low as 11.8 but not the norm. 12.3 is a number to note if you don't like to walk. I used it on hundreds of cars and the number holds up well.

The starter can get to where it draws too much amp too even though it seems to work right, that can make the problem too. That test done with the same tester used on battery as well if you hit the big chains. My harddrive getting cloudy, thinking more than 150 amp is bad IIRC.

dianne

Quote from: amc49 on March 01, 2014, 10:34:47 PM
So lost, oh so lost..............................

The car not starting till it's been tried 3 or 4 times can be 10 other things, the actual description was not given by Art, which is-- you try to start, starter seems to work but spins up extremely high like it's broken. If you don't get that higher than normal sounding spinning free you have NOT found the problem.

Not starting until 3-4 times could be battery, cables, ignition switch, solenoid, I'm getting tired, there are more. 3-4 times is worthless as info other than as part of a more detailed description, I watched this stuff all day long at the parts store. And parts mis-bought by the thousands of dollars. Incidentally, they will want you to purchase entire starter, a stepper can look online to find bendix only for maybe $10-$15 dollars. I haven't bought a starter in like 35 years, I simply pull them down and rebuild them when they have to come out for this or that. Generally not even needing any new parts.

You haven't even verified whether or not engine turns in all or part of the situations yet.

As said, it could be as simple as a bad ground.


  • For awhile the car starts fine but doesn't when it's damp or in the evenings. That means that I start fine in the morning but have issues starting. I put something like heat in the gas tank because the car sat for like 3 months. I didn't know if it was the battery or something else. I went to Interstate and the guy tested the batter but not the alternator but did the regulator. I swapped that out and with the heat stuff it starts great
  • Today we had rain and I went out for a bit and came back. Went out again food shopping and it was raining and damp and the car wouldn't start again. So I ended up going in and someone came out with one of those battery starting things. It started. On a side note, I actually checked to see if the cap on the distributor was bad and it wasn't.
  • I was thinking of changing the battery out. I came with the car and it's a junkyard battery. Who knows, the guy at Interstate said it was good. Regular was sending out 16.5 or something so now it's new and changed

Does that sound like the resolution to you?
Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

amc49

So lost, oh so lost..............................

The car not starting till it's been tried 3 or 4 times can be 10 other things, the actual description was not given by Art, which is-- you try to start, starter seems to work but spins up extremely high like it's broken. If you don't get that higher than normal sounding spinning free you have NOT found the problem.

Not starting until 3-4 times could be battery, cables, ignition switch, solenoid, I'm getting tired, there are more. 3-4 times is worthless as info other than as part of a more detailed description, I watched this stuff all day long at the parts store. And parts mis-bought by the thousands of dollars. Incidentally, they will want you to purchase entire starter, a stepper can look online to find bendix only for maybe $10-$15 dollars. I haven't bought a starter in like 35 years, I simply pull them down and rebuild them when they have to come out for this or that. Generally not even needing any new parts.

You haven't even verified whether or not engine turns in all or part of the situations yet.

As said, it could be as simple as a bad ground.

bbobcat75

Had same issue check your ground connections!!'n mine on the motor was loose!!!
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

JonzWagon

Hi everyone......my apologies for not describing the problem correctly. I think Art hit it right about the starter drive going out. The symptoms he describes are right on. However I will go over the entire ignition system and check everything closely.  Thanks for all the replies,  they were appreciated.   John :)

74 PintoWagon

Well, with the information given(which isn't much)my question is, when the starter spins does the motor turn over?? "it still won't start until I try 3 or 4 times"
There isn't anything wrong with the solenoid or the starter because the starter spins so that means the solenoid has to work and the starter is working if it spins, I'm laying odds that it's the starter drive going out, usually you can hit it a few times and it'll grab until it finally craps out completely.. Could be wrong though..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

Having said what I did there is actually a mechanism I worked out where the starter COULD spin with a bad solenoid but it would be so rare that I've never seen it happen and would also rely on a couple other things to happen as well. Car could be in below horrible tune and then the starter bypass fails inside solenoid, starter still cranks but car does not fire off from weak spark at cranking time. Solenoid would then be bad. Rare though.

Almost ANYTHING can happen on a car including some pretty fantastic things; you learn to play the numbers to get quickest fixes.

arkyt

If the starter is turning the engine over, it ain't the starter!

The starter would not spin if the solenoid was bad.  Sounds like you need to check all the connections from the battery to the starter, the key and the ground - every one. Clean them all, check for bad wire to connector connection.  Then check all the ignitin circuit.
78 sedan
77 V8 cruizin wagon
73 MGB
09 Challenger RT

amc49

Before you get GOOD help you'd better describe things better.

'The starter would spin but engine would not fire. So I replaced Starter Solenoid.'

Nothing personal at all but it's simply impossible, if solenoid were bad the starter will not spin. That description destroys the rest of your post since now we have no idea of how reliable what you say is.

If the starter spins and the engine too there is NOTHING wrong with it. If the starter spins motor but motor will not fire up the motor has a problem not the starter, go from there.

Here's where most trip up in a non start problem. The car may do absolutely NOTHING at all. It may make rapid clicking noise only and nothing else happens. It may spin starter but ENGINE does not spin. Starter can spin engine and the car simply not start. Every one of those situations can be separate issues with different cures.

All this is assuming direct drive old school starter like came on the car, not a PMGR starter which has somewhat different issues.


JonzWagon

Hi everyone, I need some advice. Starter problem (I think) with my '80 wagon. Was having trouble getting my car to start this winter. Replaced the battery...still would not start. The starter would spin but engine would not fire. So I replaced Starter Solenoid. Now it starts and runs fine..........BUT,  it still won't start until I try 3 or 4 times, then fires fine. Looks like the starter is the problem after all. I know you have to drop the steering to get to it. My question is......does anyone make hi-performance starters that will work or do I have to settle with a "rebuilt" one from the local parts store and maybe replace it again next year.  Any advice or suggestion would be greatly appreciated. Thanks very much in advance. John :)