Mini Classifieds

74 & Up Parts
Date: 01/20/2021 03:22 pm
looking for parts
Date: 06/19/2020 02:32 pm
1979/80 Pinto needs to be saved
Date: 09/10/2018 10:41 pm
Electrical
Date: 03/29/2017 11:37 am
WANTED: 1979 Bumper End Caps - Front and Rear
Date: 02/16/2019 10:46 am
Electrical
Date: 03/29/2017 11:37 am
72 pinto drag car

Date: 06/22/2017 07:19 am
Wanted '75 Bobcat Instrument Cluster & Wiring Harness
Date: 12/09/2018 06:59 am
Early Rare Small window hatch
Date: 08/16/2017 08:26 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,895
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,580
  • Total Topics: 16,270
  • Online today: 2,535
  • Online ever: 3,214 (June 20, 2025, 10:48:59 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 2454
  • Total: 2454
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Question on rear end gearing/drivability/6.75" vs 8"

Started by popbumper, November 16, 2013, 03:48:29 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Srt

Quote from: 71HANTO on November 17, 2013, 08:52:34 AM
Hey Fred,
Key words are "looks like".  ;)  The one I got from you still has it's original 38 year old "patina". I did get replacement axles with good bearings and backing plates to replace the one that was used as a skid plate (thanks to the tip from Wittsend). ;D I found the 6.75 posi unit after I bought the 3.40 8 from you so I may try to stick with the 6.75 for my 2.0 turbo based on SRT's comments. I have a 3.40 6.75 with bad bearings and the original low mile 3.18 rear still under my car to choose from. I'm putting it behind a  Mustang T-5 with a Camaro tail housing so I don't have to cut the tunnel. It should be fun. ;)

71HANTO


i was drag racing/street racing my car heavily back then. the 3:55's were in use for that period in the cars life. the tire were always a 185/70-13 either a Continental tt714 or a Dunlop SP4 which are/were both 'short' tires. 


IIRC about 23.5" to 24"in height installed stretched over some 7" wide steel rims.(both great tires for the time) so to be honest there wasn't a huge, static, contact patch to overcome on launch from a dead stop when the tree went green.


this helped immensely with prolonging the life of the rear axle.  i ended up with the 3:40 gear set because the strip days were over and i was getting into more open road, weekend long trips.  the 3:18 didn't work because all those weekend trips could never NOT include some "up one side of the mountain & down the other" episodes. 3:18's just don't cut it at all when trying to accelerate out of one curve and into the other.

the car was equipped with the stock german 4spd trans which to my bank accounts dismay, didn't hold up to well to drag strip use.  i became a 'valued' customer at villa ford for replacement counter shafts & 2nd speed main shaft gears as well as countless synchro rings!!!!! (got darn good at rebuilding that sucker real quick)


to make a long story short, i beat the crap out of the old 6.75" gear sets and they never let me down.
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Wittsend

Talking ratios without taking tire size (diameter) into consideration is somewhat of a moot point.  People run tires from the 50 series/13" up to the largest 16" tire they can stuff in the wheel well.  That rolling diameter can make a considerable difference in the overall tire/rear ratio results.

Ideally it would be better to talk about engine revolutions per defined distance - say..., 100 feet to have definitive numbers to discuss.  And, even there the transmission ratios factor in for each gear.  Sadly it seems it is rarely talked about.

But, all that said for my Turbo Pinto/T-5 I opted for 3.40's over 3.00's (with 215-60-14" tires).  Under full throttle I don't think I really noticed a difference in acceleration.  But in general driving the 3.00's just put the engine in the wrong RPM range at common posted speed limits.  Thus, the drive-ability improved with the 3.40's.

Given a Pinto with say 185-70-13" or 195-60-14" tires I think 3.25's would be the best middle of the road gear for for acceleration (such as it is) and mileage/freeway RPM considerations.  Unfortunately the 3.25 was rarely used in the 8" (from Ford) and is basically an aftermarket ratio.  If the 6-3/4" is acceptable the 3.18 probably would be decent.

Dave 1987, I ran 3.00 (close to your 3.11) with a T-5.  I  can't remember what tires I used, but 5th gear at 65 MPH was around 2,000 RPM.  Even with the turbo motor it was too much for anything but level ground.  I often had to downshift to 4th gear thus negating the 5th gear.

Tom

dave1987

I do still have a 2.73:1 carrier for a 6.75" axle, just not pinion gear/shaft for it. Also have some 6.75" axle shafts, as well as some new-old-stock pinion crush sleeves (three I think). If you need replacement parts let me know.

I like this 3.11:1 ratio, I just would like to put a T5 behind the 2.3 to get that fifth gear and make freeway driving bearable again!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

71HANTO

Quote from: Fred Morgan on November 16, 2013, 08:04:08 PM
Charles that looks like the 8" you got from me.  lol    Fred   ;D
Hey Fred,
Key words are "looks like".  ;)  The one I got from you still has it's original 38 year old "patina". I did get replacement axles with good bearings and backing plates to replace the one that was used as a skid plate (thanks to the tip from Wittsend). ;D I found the 6.75 posi unit after I bought the 3.40 8 from you so I may try to stick with the 6.75 for my 2.0 turbo based on SRT's comments. I have a 3.40 6.75 with bad bearings and the original low mile 3.18 rear still under my car to choose from. I'm putting it behind a  Mustang T-5 with a Camaro tail housing so I don't have to cut the tunnel. It should be fun. ;)

71HANTO
"Life is a series of close ones...'til the last one"...cfpjr

Srt

i used the old 6.75 in mine for many years (well, a few anyway_until it blew up for the last time). 

i tried just about all the rear gears that could be had for it at the time. 


from 3:55 to 3:40 to 3:18 (no dice on the 2:73) even a 4:?? something gear set (with posi) out of an old econoline! with a short tire that son of a gun would really keep you busy  changing gears!!!


i never had any problems with any of them in terms of performance. but for me and the kind of driving that i finally ended up doing the 3:40 was the best.


all these gear sets were taking ALL the abuse that  a turbo 2.0 could dish out.

none ever failed.



the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

dave1987

I put an 8" from a Mustang II in my 78 Sedan, also a 2.3L with manual trans, and had no difference in how the car performed, handled, or reacted to the swap. I also used the original drive shaft used with the 6.75" rear.

I actually did noticed an obvious difference from the swap due to the gear ratio change. The original axle was 2.73:1 and the 8" is a 3.11:1 and I have more get up and go, however the motor really races when going 65mph on the freeway now. I just don't drive on the freeway if I don't have to! :)
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

dick1172762

63/4" and the 8" both use the same drive shaft. I put a 8" in both a 72 and a 80 model and didn't have to change the drive shaft. Worked for me. Chris, its not worth the trouble on a stocker unless you want a posi.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Fred Morgan

Charles that looks like the 8" you got from me.  lol    Fred   ;D
Fred Morgan- Missing from us...
January 20th 1951-January 6th 2014

Beloved PCCA Parts Supplier and Friend to many.
Post your well wishes,
http://www.fordpinto.com/in-memory-of-our-fallen-pinto-heros/fred-morgan-23434/

71HANTO

Popbumper,
As stated, the 8" will handle much more torque and was put behind 289 Mustangs, etc. Plus, you have much wider choices of gear ratios if you ever want to change 'em. Posi units are easy to get but pricey. Finding a posi unit for a 6.75 is next to impossible. I found one for sale in 5+ years of looking. The downside of the 8 is more mass to overcome on acceleration and it weighs around 30 pounds more.

71HANTO


"Life is a series of close ones...'til the last one"...cfpjr

bbobcat75

The 8" is a way stronger unit but the gear ratio is really what you need to know! That would determine my choice!  A 6.75 behind a stock 2.3 will last. As long as the motor and Trans does!!!       Give us the gear ratio for both rear ends!! 

Thanks!
1975 mercury bobcat 2.8 auto
1975 ford pinto - drag car - 2.3l w/t5 trans - project car

popbumper

Hi all:

  My '76 wagon is equipped with the generic 6.75" inch rear end. A few years back, I was able to acquire an 8" rear end from a '78 glass hatch, 6 cylinder car.
  The wagon is a 4 speed standard shift. As the rear end is the ONLY part of the car that has not been restored yet (but I am going to), is it a "wise" choice to put the 8" rear end underneath, with my 2.3 standard shift? What kind of change in drivability should I expect from the different gearing? Is this a good idea, and if not, why not?
I might add, my only rationale for doing so is twofold (1) - a restored 8" rear end would be an easy swap in, and I could pull the old one out and put the new one in without having the car up on "blocks" waiting for the restore, and (2) the 8" would provide more durability SHOULD I ever opt to beef up the powerplant or swap in something else.
Your thoughts, please, thanks....
Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08