Mini Classifieds

1978 RUNABOUT

Date: 04/01/2017 03:18 pm
78 pinto wagon

Date: 06/04/2020 12:42 pm
Parts for 74 Squire Wagon
Date: 09/16/2019 07:35 pm
1979 Runabout Rear Panel
Date: 01/04/2020 02:03 pm
$300 Pinto for sale

Date: 04/19/2017 10:24 am
2.8 radiator
Date: 10/25/2019 04:10 pm
1979 Pinto Rear Bumper
Date: 03/26/2021 03:26 pm
need 1978 pinto guage cluster
Date: 03/07/2021 07:35 am
1974 Ford Pinto Squire Wagon

Date: 05/30/2020 01:51 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,670
  • Online ever: 2,670 (Today at 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 547
  • Total: 547
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

supplier for LH 289 manifold for v8 swap

Started by gearhead440, June 03, 2005, 11:34:39 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

High_Horse

I don't know who makes that flange. It just says steel flange 8788. I got mine from an automotive supply house. Just have your parts store plug that number in and see what happens. Well, today I put my assembly into ThunderPinto and my god it just squeezed in there. I will be posting pictures this weekend. I am doing a stock 302 with a c4 trans. Mind you, this is with the exhaust manifolds in place and the carry out pipes in place. Again I will be posting pics. My next thing is to get the trans cooling lines in place(something you don't have to screw with) but I like my automatics. Look for my ThunderPinto update in Projects.
                                                                                                   High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

gearhead440

High Horse,
Thanks for the info on the flange numbers!  Are that a Napa or Advance item number or a Ford piece?  Asking so I will know where to go to get them ;D.  Yes, I will be using a T5.  All info that I have been able to find indicates that I should be able to use the cable system already existing on the 4 speed and couple it to the T5 bellhousing and fork.  The only piece that I havent gotten yet is the fork and according to PAW catalog, the 86 up fork is stronger so I guess that is what I will look for.  I currently have an aluminum flywheel (10") and stock 289HP replacement clutch with Borg Warner clutch disc but I am thinking about going to the Center Force Stage 1 just for good measure and piece of mind behind a 351w.  Years ago (now) I fabbed a oil pan from a car pan by cutting the "V" section out of the rear of the front sump, bending it up to the bottom "floor" or the pan, and then welding.  I then applied JB weld to the inside and outside to make it smooth, then painted.  Turned out nice but I never installed it so it has been sitting on the shelf.  I guess that I will do that again with the 351 oil pan as I dont think the 302 pan will properly mate with the 351w as I have seen others attempt to do so on the board and have been unsuccessful.  I also have a dual sump pan out of a truck 302 and was wondering if that might work.  I am unsure it it will work on the 351 application as of yet because the 351 is still in the car but the truck oil pan is readily available.  Coupled with the fact that the 2.3 uses a nice front sump I just dont know if a dual sump will be the ticket.  I've also read that the stock frame mounts may be utilized and that 77 T-bird engine mounts work.  I'm pulling the motor from a 79 T-bird so I'm hopefull that it will drop in without too much re-engineering in the engine compartment, especially using the MII RH exhaust and the 289 LH exhaust. 
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?

High_Horse

The flange numbers are 8788. It is kind of a generic flange that is flat. The stamped flanges are to protrusive to fit. There really is not enough room. Did I see that you a using a t5 standard trans? I have made an effort to take pics of every thing(like over 200). What are you doing about an oil pan?
                                                                                                     High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

gearhead440

High Horse, you are my hero  ;D!  That is exactly the pics and info I needed.  If you have the flange numbers and any other lessons you have learned that would be AWESOME!  Pics are always appreciated.
Ride On, Dude.
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?

High_Horse

Here is how I went about doing a sample pipe layout without making numerous trips to the pipe bending guy. I used 1/2 inch emt and cut some 2 inch disks out of styrofoam. This got me the blanks done. I picked up some flanges and donuts at the parts store. It turned out that his machine could not flare the pipe close enough to the first bends so I had to get out the hammer and along with a 2 inch hole drilled in a 2 by 4 placed in the vice I was able to fashion the flares I needed to do the job. Please keep in mind that the driver side is the closest and I had to slant the flare a bit to get it just right. Do you want the flange numbers? The donuts are regular ford. I am doing a 302 to a c4 in a 77 Pinto wagon. I am aproaching completion of the engine/trans assembly and am setting this thing up as to drop the entire assembly in complete minus the intake and carb. I will be posting pictures of what I have in just a couple of days in the (Projects) area. Here are a couple of pics for now.
                                                                                               High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

gearhead440

High Horse,
Any info or pics you could provide would be greatly appreciated!  Thank you very much.
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?

High_Horse

Yes it works good. That is the same type of manifolds that I am using, except older ones that are in good shape. If you did not work out your carry out pipes I still have the samples I used for mine and would be happy to send pix and show you what I did.
                                                                                    High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

gearhead440

This should work, I hope.
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?

gearhead440

I'm a cluebag.  How do I post a picture? ???
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?

High_Horse

Can you snap a picture of it??????????
                                                                                  High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

gearhead440

I just purchased the correct LH (drivers side) 289 manifold for the V8 pinto swap.  It is for a 66 Mustang to goes straight back instead of downward and thus hitting the steering shaft.  The place is B&M Engine Supply in TX and the phone # is 1-877-844-9832.  Ask for Danny.  When I purchased my 6/3/05 he still had 5 more in stock.  He also had a complete 302 engine and transmission from a Mustang II.  FYI hope this is helpful ;).
Speed is only a question of money: Just how fast do you want to go?