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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Exploding Pinto is a Myth...Pinto Fires, NOT!

Started by Scott Hamilton, August 21, 2012, 10:19:33 AM

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Scott Hamilton

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Scott Hamilton

Here is anohter I found-
http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?page=228
Still searching for the entire picture... It's a long read but well worth it. Posted here to make it search engine linkable...
Read this too!!
http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?page=229
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

r4pinto

I agree Dwayne, that was perfect! Time to get this out so that people will be educated. Especially since Pintos are just as explosive as any other car can be. Lets face it. Any time you get flammagble liquids & spark together it can be dangerous, no matter the car.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dga57

Finally!  Solid data to support what we've known all along!  The facts are well presented and well documented.  Other than a few typos and one use of a wrong word (should have been perceived instead of received), I'd say it's perfect!  I would suggest having someone go through it with an editor's eye; perhaps Matt Gunter, if he's available.  If the PCCA is going to put this out there in order to redeem the reputations of our little ponies, we want it as perfect as it can be!  Good work!!!
Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

Scott Hamilton

Quote from: SNOPES link=http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=26785
You may not have time to read all of this in one sitting. This is compiled from numerous reputable sources over the last decade or so (some of it pre-internet), like Automotive News, Wall Street Journal, Rutger's Law review, etc. I'm just condensing it here to be more compact (yes, this is compact...)

Remarkably, the affair of the "exploding" Ford Pinto--universally hailed as the acme of product liability success--is starting to look like hype. In a summer 1991 Rutgers Law Review article Gary Schwartz demolishes "the myth of the Pinto case." Actual deaths in Pinto fires have come in at a known 27, not the expected thousand or more.

More startling, Schwartz shows that everyone's received ideas about the fabled "smoking gun" memo are false (the one supposedly dealing with how it was cheaper to save money on a small part and pay off later lawsuits... and immortalized in the movie "Fight Club"). The actual memo did not pertain to Pintos, or even Ford products, but to American cars in general; it dealt with rollovers, not rear-end collisions; it did not contemplate the matter of tort liability at all, let alone accept it as cheaper than a design change; it assigned a value to human life because federal regulators, for whose eyes it was meant, themselves employed that concept in their deliberations; and the value it used was one that they, the regulators, had set forth in documents.

In retrospect, Schwartz writes, the Pinto's safety record appears to have been very typical of its time and class. In over 10 years of production, and 20 years that followed, with over 2 million Pintos produced, no more people died in fires from Pintos as died in fires from Maximas...

The supposed design flaw of the Pinto, according to Byron Bloch, was that in a heavy enough rear end accident, the front of the gas tank could come in contact with a bolt on the differential, rupturing it, and allowing fuel to spill out, with the potential for a fire. it is, however, extremely hard for the gas tank to come in contact with any bolts that might be abole to accomplish this, unless the car is hit from behind at over 50 mph. And as was shown in the autopsy for the intital accident in '78 that started this controversy, teh occupants died from teh impact, not from teh fire (caused by an inattentive driver in a chevy van driving onto the shoulder and hitting their parked, but running Pinto from behind at over 50 mph).

In June 1978, at the height of the Ford Pinto outcry, ABC's 20/20 reported "startling new developments": evidence that full-size Fords, not just the subcompact Pinto, could explode when hit from behind. The show's visual highlight was dramatic. Newly aired film from tests done at UCLA in 1967 by researchers under contract with the automaker showed a Ford sedan being rear-ended at 55 mph and bursting into a fireball.

"ABC News has analyzed a great many of Ford's secret rear-end crash tests," confided correspondent Sylvia Chase. And they showed that if you owned a Ford--not just a Pinto, but many other models--what happened to the car in the film could happen to you. The tone was unrelentingly damning, and by the show's end popular anchorman Hugh Downs felt constrained to add his own personal confession. "You know, I've advertised Ford products a few years back, Sylvia, and at the time, of course, I didn't know and I don't think that anybody else did that this kind of ruckus was going to unfold." You got the idea that he would certainly think twice before repeating a mistake like that.

If ABC really analyzed those UCLA test reports, it had every reason to know why the Ford in the crash film burst into flame: there was an incendiary device under it. The UCLA testers explained their methods in a 1968 report published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, fully ten years before the 20/20 episode. As they explained, one of their goals was to study how a crash fire affected the passenger compartment of a car, and to do that they needed a crash fire. But crash fires occur very seldom; in fact, the testers had tried to produce a fire in an earlier test run without an igniter but had failed. Hence their use of the incendiary device (which they clearly and fully described in their write-up) in the only test run that produced a fire.

The "Beyond the Pinto" coverage gives plenty of credit to the show's on-and off-screen expert, who "worked as a consultant with ABC News on this story, and provided us with many of the Ford crash-test records." His name was Byron Bloch, and his role as an ABC News consultant was to prove a longstanding one; over the years he brought the network seven different exposes on auto safety, two of which won Emmys.

If the name is familiar, it's because the very same Byron Bloch starred as NBC's on-screen expert in the ill-fated Dateline episode about teh GM sidesaddle gastanks, that landed the network in serious trouble. More on that in a bit. Bloch was present at the Indiana crash scene, and defended the tests afterward. ("There was nothing wrong with what happened in Indianapolis," he told Reuters. "The so-called devices underneath the pickup truck are really a lot of smoke that GM is blowing to divert you away from the punitive damages in the Moseley case.") And he played a key role in assuring NBC the truck fire had been set off by a headlight filament, providing a crucial excuse for not mentioning the igniters. (A later analysis for GM found the fire had started near the igniters, not the headlights.)

In 1978, as in 1992, Bloch wore two hats. One was as paid or unpaid network consultant, advisor, and onscreen explainer. The other was as the single best-known expert witness hired by trial lawyers in high-stakes injury lawsuits against automakers. To many, NBC's Dateline fiasco seemed a freak, a bizarre departure from accepted network standards. Would any half-awake news organization have helped stage a crash test that was rigged to get a particular outcome? Or concealed from the public key elements--the hidden rockets, the over-filled tank, the loose gas cap? Or entrusted its judgment to axe-grinding "experts" who were deeply involved in litigating against the expose's target? Or, after questions came up, refused to apologize no matter how strong the evidence grew?

CBS, for one, may want to revisit its 1986 "60 Minutes" segment on supposed "sudden acceleration" in Audi 5000s. That show featured real-life footage almost as riveting as that on "Dateline": An Audi was shown taking off like a bolt without a foot on the accelerator -- seeming proof that the vehicle could display a malignant will of its own. Ed Bradley told viewers that, according to a safety expert named William Rosenbluth, "unusually high transmission pressure could build up on certain model Audis causing the throttle to open up . . . . Again, watch the pedal go down by itself."

Frightening stuff, eh? "What the viewers couldn't watch," wrote Peter Huber in 1992's "Galileo's Revenge," "was where the 'unusually high transmission pressure' had come from. It had come from a bottle. Rosenbluth had drilled a hole in the Audi transmission," through which he'd pumped in air or fluid at high pressure. (CBS still defends its segment.)

Clearly, NBC isn't the first network to run a dubious safety expose'. It's just the first to get nailed. For years the networks have relied on a small circle of outside experts to shape their coverage of safety issues. Most of these experts turn out to be deeply involved in the business of suing the companies and institutions targeted by the adversary coverage. And the result is likely to be a widening circle of embarrassment for the media.

NBC had to eat two separate helpings of crow: first for producing the rigged video, then for holding out far too long in its defense. In doing so, it was led astray by its outside experts, especially Bruce Enz of The Institute for Safety Analysis, hired by NBC to conduct the crash tests, and Byron Bloch, interviewed as an expert on the "Dateline" segment and active at the crash-test scene:

Enz's group rigged the truck with hidden incendiary devices, detonated by remote-control radio. Later, Bloch and others defended the idea. This was "among accepted test procedures," noted Clarence Ditlow of the Center for Auto Safety, raising the eyebrows of many safety researchers.

Enz and Bloch assured NBC that the fire was actually set off by the filament of a broken headlamp, which conveniently meant there was no need to tell viewers about the Mother's-Little-Helper rockets. (According to Automotive News, GM scientists found in a super-slow-motion video analysis that the fire started near the rockets, not the headlamps.) The network also cited the experts as its source for having told viewers that a "small hole" had been poked in the GM gas tank at impact. Later tests showed the recovered tank fully intact.

And so forth. The use of a wrong-model, ill-fitting gas cap (it apparently popped out on impact) would have been noticed beforehand, if at all, presumably by those who groomed the truck for its big moment on film. NBC reporters would probably not have relied on their own direct observation to come up with what were later shown to be serious underestimates of the actual crash speeds. One bad decision was presumably wholly NBC's to make: showing only a brief snippet of the fire, which in fact burned out in about 15 seconds, after it exhausted the fuel ejected from the truck's filler tube. NBC's camera angle also made it hard for viewers to see that flames were not coming from inside the truck itself, as might have been expected had its gas tank really burst.

Given a fuller look, viewers might have concluded that you can get a fire from just about any vehicle if you bash it in a way that forces gas out of its filler tube and then provide a handy source of ignition. 

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Scott Hamilton

This is good, this is good!

How about GM being sued for rear end collision fires WITH a internal Memo almost exactly like Fords, ALL Car manufactures calculated these types of 'possible' losses...  Check this out!!

http://suif.stanford.edu/~jeffop/WWW/wsj_gm_fire_negligence.txt
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
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The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

Pintosopher

Excellent points ,all well made Norm.. Even a NASCAR Sprint Cup Stock car will suffer filler neck  separation when involved in a severe enough impact.. It was all Propoganda and distortions of statistics..


Quote from: Norman Bagi on August 26, 2012, 10:06:53 PM
The issue is not that a problem could not happen. The issue is the over exagerrated 800-900 cars per year as stated by Mother Jones resulting in fire related deaths.
Here is a crash test that did not result in an exploding Pinto, fuel did leak though. These imapcts are so forceful that the people in the car would most likely not survive the impact. Multiple Pintos were wrecked to get the right footage. Cars of the day were heavier and had huge steel bumpers.  It wasn't a matter of wheather or not this could happen as much as it would have had a similar effect on any other sub-compact car of the day and that the numbers were grossly exagerrated to sell magazines and boost tv ratings.   
They then sped up the car and used an ignition source to get the desired effect.  They then put the video into ultra slow motion to play the test everyone is familiar with. This gives the effect that the Pinto would explode if Parking it.
I guess if we used the same train of thought Mother Jones did we would have banned the big bulky Chevy Impala for having a week windshield bracing as seen here.
or because it might hit a smaller car and kill someone, Pintos were not the only small cars of the day!
As for the rear end issue, Ford did do a recall on the Pinto and extended the filler neck and installed a plastic shroud around the tank, there is dispute over wheather they chose to ignore the repair and figured human life was not worth as much as the repair.  I can only assume this was a manufactured story by the media because Ford won the case.  If the smoking gun and the ignorance of $11 dollar repairs were true, i amsure they would have lost on that alone.  However the Pinto was not the worse car in terms of fatalities or fires from crashes, many of the Japenese imports as well as some of the American counterparts had a worse track record for fatalities and fire. But here are the pinto facts. The NHTSA in 1976 stated 27 people by that point had died in Pinto related fires, that is all fires, not just rear end collisions. I understand their was a bigger issue with transmission fires, but that is another story.  In 1976 2,351,802 Pintos were on the road. If you went by Mother Jones story of 800-900 per year that number of 27 quickly becomes 4,800-5,400, just a slight exageration over 27 posted by the agency that actually keeps the records. The average for a fatality due to fire is 1 in every 87,103 Pinto's made at that time. To put that into perspective that is like going into a fully sold out football stadium alongside a fully sold out baseball stadium and saying someone in these two places will die in a fiery crash at some point in their lifetime.  By comparisson, if you went by the Mother Jones numbers,(5400) they claim 1 person in every 435 Pintos sold would die in a fire related death in their lifetime. Those odds I don't like, those are the odds they sold America. A violent collision weather read end, side impact or head on usually ends in death.  Especially if you put a big heavy vehicle against a compact car. The fault is not the car as much as driver who is not paying attention.  You can be driving a tank, if you drive off a cliff the tank is not at fault.  If you are driving a pinto and crash head on into an Isetta it will be like a mosquito hitting the windshield and the fault will not be Isetta design.
Now one more mathematical equation before we end, try to keep up on this one.  Mopther Jones report Ford would not repair the vehicle for $11 each because it was cheaper to pay for the fatalities.  Correct?  Well then the numbers they gave don't add up.  If it was an average of $12,000 buyout in court at the time (the so called smoking letter) and we established that In 1976 2,351,802 Pintos were on the road. If you did an $11 dollar repair on all those cars the total would be. $25,869,822.00, OK?  Now divide that by the number of fatalities Mother Jones reports to have happened by that date in time 5,400 and the buyout is $4,790.00 So what Mother Jones is saying is that Ford executives cannot do math and want to lose more money and kill people who buy their product! That is why Mother Jones lied about the amount of Pintos on the road as well stating their were over 6 million built by 1976.  What? Over a million units a year, WOW! I think their would be a record book somewhere discussing how Ford sold over a million Pintos a year for six years straight. But their isn't one, because it never happened that way. If hit hard enough the gas filler neck could break free, this was a bad design, no worse thatn any hundred manufactured designs that had the gas tank filler in the rear or behind the license plate, most of these had a rubber clamped connection that would break free in a rear end collision. Numbers don't lie, unless you are Mother Jones!
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Norman Bagi

Check out this Commodore, it is a GM brand that was made in Australia,  Now I know why Fords are so popular in Australia. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caOqD54oxRA

Norman Bagi

The issue is not that a problem could not happen. The issue is the over exagerrated 800-900 cars per year as stated by Mother Jones resulting in fire related deaths.
Here is a crash test that did not result in an exploding Pinto, fuel did leak though. These imapcts are so forceful that the people in the car would most likely not survive the impact. Multiple Pintos were wrecked to get the right footage. Cars of the day were heavier and had huge steel bumpers.  It wasn't a matter of wheather or not this could happen as much as it would have had a similar effect on any other sub-compact car of the day and that the numbers were grossly exagerrated to sell magazines and boost tv ratings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu5p3j451nE

They then sped up the car and used an ignition source to get the desired effect.  They then put the video into ultra slow motion to play the test everyone is familiar with. This gives the effect that the Pinto would explode if Parking it.
I guess if we used the same train of thought Mother Jones did we would have banned the big bulky Chevy Impala for having a week windshield bracing as seen here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ete3j7dYozk&

feature=related
or because it might hit a smaller car and kill someone, Pintos were not the only small cars of the day!
As for the rear end issue, Ford did do a recall on the Pinto and extended the filler neck and installed a plastic shroud around the tank, there is dispute over wheather they chose to ignore the repair and figured human life was not worth as much as the repair.  I can only assume this was a manufactured story by the media because Ford won the case.  If the smoking gun and the ignorance of $11 dollar repairs were true, i amsure they would have lost on that alone.  However the Pinto was not the worse car in terms of fatalities or fires from crashes, many of the Japenese imports as well as some of the American counterparts had a worse track record for fatalities and fire. But here are the pinto facts. The NHTSA in 1976 stated 27 people by that point had died in Pinto related fires, that is all fires, not just rear end collisions. I understand their was a bigger issue with transmission fires, but that is another story.  In 1976 2,351,802 Pintos were on the road. If you went by Mother Jones story of 800-900 per year that number of 27 quickly becomes 4,800-5,400, just a slight exageration over 27 posted by the agency that actually keeps the records. The average for a fatality due to fire is 1 in every 87,103 Pinto's made at that time. To put that into perspective that is like going into a fully sold out football stadium alongside a fully sold out baseball stadium and saying someone in these two places will die in a fiery crash at some point in their lifetime.  By comparisson, if you went by the Mother Jones numbers,(5400) they claim 1 person in every 435 Pintos sold would die in a fire related death in their lifetime. Those odds I don't like, those are the odds they sold America. A violent collision weather read end, side impact or head on usually ends in death.  Especially if you put a big heavy vehicle against a compact car. The fault is not the car as much as driver who is not paying attention.  You can be driving a tank, if you drive off a cliff the tank is not at fault.  If you are driving a pinto and crash head on into an Isetta it will be like a mosquito hitting the windshield and the fault will not be Isetta design.
Now one more mathematical equation before we end, try to keep up on this one.  Mopther Jones report Ford would not repair the vehicle for $11 each because it was cheaper to pay for the fatalities.  Correct?  Well then the numbers they gave don't add up.  If it was an average of $12,000 buyout in court at the time (the so called smoking letter) and we established that In 1976 2,351,802 Pintos were on the road. If you did an $11 dollar repair on all those cars the total would be. $25,869,822.00, OK?  Now divide that by the number of fatalities Mother Jones reports to have happened by that date in time 5,400 and the buyout is $4,790.00 So what Mother Jones is saying is that Ford executives cannot do math and want to lose more money and kill people who buy their product! That is why Mother Jones lied about the amount of Pintos on the road as well stating their were over 6 million built by 1976.  What? Over a million units a year, WOW! I think their would be a record book somewhere discussing how Ford sold over a million Pintos a year for six years straight. But their isn't one, because it never happened that way. If hit hard enough the gas filler neck could break free, this was a bad design, no worse thatn any hundred manufactured designs that had the gas tank filler in the rear or behind the license plate, most of these had a rubber clamped connection that would break free in a rear end collision. Numbers don't lie, unless you are Mother Jones!

baliguy

There was a little bit of an issue with the normal rear end and bare gas tank.  The sharp corner would do some damage to the gas tank in certain rear end collisions.  The fix was a large nylon/plastic over the bottom-front of the gas tank.  The 8" rears didn't have the issue.  It is ironic that Lee Iacocca made a decision to continue shipping Pintos before the fix made it made it to the assembly line and any cars they still had in house.  I don't recall if there was ever a recall for this.  Later, when at Chrysler, Iacocca was basically bad mouthing Fords safety record.  He got away with it because people just don't know or remember. 

Chevy, when settling law suites, made everyone sign non-disclosure agreement and the public thinks Chevy had no rear end collision explosion problems.  Chevy actually had a worse record.

Original74

Hey Scott, love this!

Once we get our facts together, along with credible references, what would it take to get Snopes onboard? With the proliferation of fact checking any issue on the internet, Snopes would be a fabulous site to have our facts posted. Just wondering if anyone knows how to hook up with them.

Anyone bashing our cars will know what Snopes is, and the record they have for factual information. Just turn the naysayers to Snopes!
Dave Herbeck- Missing from us... He will always be with us

1974 Sedan, 'Geraldine', 45,000 miles, orange and white, show car.
1976 Runabout, project.
1979 Sedan, 'Jade', 429 miles, show car, really needs to be in a museum. I am building him one!
1979 Runabout, light blue, 39,000 miles, daily driver

Scott Hamilton

Quote from: Norman Bagi on August 24, 2012, 01:52:46 PM
I would also like to see the Mother Jones story and any others like it pulled off of the site. They are full of lies and deserve no merit in my opinion. If not pulled, maybe at least not put at the top or in a separate category of popular lies about the Pinto.

I can see this...

Here is something I found today....
http://dailybail.com/home/check-out-this-1977-televised-debate-over-the-ford-pinto-wit.html
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

Norman Bagi

I would also like to see the Mother Jones story and any others like it pulled off of the site. They are full of lies and deserve no merit in my opinion. If not pulled, maybe at least not put at the top or in a separate category of popular lies about the Pinto.

OTTOGII

I love where this is going! Our Pintos, still out on the road,need  more respect from the "I THOUGHT THEY ALL BLEW UP!" crowd. Otto N Austin   

Scott Hamilton

This is really good stuff.. I'm thinking of utilizing Zazzle or CafePress to make up 'placards' we can show with our cars or cards to give out that definitively combats the notion. Need someone to 'Word Smith' this out with references that can be fact checked. I will also put this into an article tied to all the search hit words and redo fordpinto.com meta tags to in essence 'push' this to the search engines.
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

Norman Bagi

I want to point out one more issue. Most people think Ford lost the lawsuit, this adds to the myth. Ford was actually was found not guilty and won the case. This is similar to the case against John Delorean. He too was found not guilty, but public belief was he was guilty and did time in jail. The case against Ford was for two girls who parked on the side of the road and were rear ended by a full size van traveling at high speeds. An autopsy revealed they were killed by the impact, not the subsequent fire. The video always shown is in slow motion, because showng an Impala hitting a subcompact car at high speeds takes away from the effect of the collision, the response would be "well duh!" but by putting it in slow motion it appears as though the car will explode while parallel parking it. Which we know not to be true.

Norman Bagi

Well first, here are the car totals. http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?page=1971-1980_Ford_Pinto_Specifications the number was not six million, just about half that at 3.2 million units. The number of deaths related to fire, all fire nit just rear end hits was 27 as of 1976. So the number had increased since then. But the numbe was far less than the 800-900 per year reported by Mother Jones. The famous letter was actualy a memo from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that listed what an average payout in a loss of life lawsuit was. This was ne'er a Ford created memo. Most cars ofthe day had similar designs of the gas tank behind the rear axle. So this was not soley a Pinto design issue. The media also published that Ford did nothing to improve the design. Just look at the 71-73 bumpers vs. The 74-80'bumpers. Not to mention the recall for the extension of the filler neck and the cover over the backside of the gas tank. There is plenty of information and stats here. Just poke around and get them, don't just rely on my numbers or words or anyone elses.

FlyerPinto

There were a total of 29 deaths in Pinto rear-end collision fires. Out of a total sales figure of 6,000,000 cars, or roughly 600,000 per year for the ten year run of the Pinto, that equates to a .0000048% rate, assuming one owner per vehicle. Mother Earth News apparently, and I say apparently because I don't have the proof in front of me, claimed the totals were much higher, a claim that was never truly refuted. The internal memo that was so damning in the Pinto case, the one claiming it would be cheaper to pay claims rather than fix the problem with the cars, was refuted in a graduate dissertation for law school  published a couple of years ago, an Ivy League school if I remember correctly. I can post the information later on. I would be happy to pull all this stuff together, I have most of it anyway and as I close in on my master's degree in American history, which I should complete in spring of 2013,  I am leaning towards writing my thesis on the automotive industry contraction of the 1970's, so this kind of fits in anyway. I get tired of the remembered hysteria and the misinformation more than I care to admit.
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...

JoeBob

After a car show I went to on Saturday, I decided that maybe I would present my car in a new way. You know how some folks have a poster with statistics. Only so many car made that year and only three with this engine and options etc. Well I decided to have a poster with safety statistics.
I started my research by reading the articles posted on this site under the heading "gas tank issue." The last article titled "My somewhat begrudging apology" had some statistics listed. These statistics looked good on the surface. They said something like there were 300 deaths in pintos and 320 deaths in toyota, 400 in VW etc. Well I got excited. This lookid like what I was looking for, until I realized that these numbers were meaningless. These numbers needed comparatives. Such as 200 deaths per 100,000 vehicles. Without knowing how many vehicles, any car with a small production would look terrific. If a car was listed as only 50 deaths, it could look excellent  unless you knew they made only 50 cars. Then you could realize that sample had a 100% fatality rate.
Doe anyone know how I could find out the true fatality rates for these cars?

Bill
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

sedandelivery

I constantly debunk the fire myth, urban legends catch on and people do not want to know the truth, they like controversy. BTW at the local shows all cars must have fire extinguishers in them to be judged, some shows even rent them out to participants for that particular show, or sell them if you like. I have been driving my Pinto a lot lately since it passed inspection, tons of fun!

Cookieboystoys

What Norm Said - I have to say... I hear more of the... not a bad car, blown out of proportion, and they didn't really blow up than the other way these days. 5 years ago I had to put a fire extinguisher in front of my car at the shows just to shut up half of them, almost quit the shows cause it just felt like "pick on the Pinto day" and now.... no more fire extinguisher and more positive comments. You still have the negative comments, that will never stop but... it's a swinging the other way and much more positive experience. It's nice to see the Pinto get a little respect vs. the days gone by...
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

Norman Bagi

I personally would love to see this site promote the fact that the Pinto is not a death trap over appologizing for the Pinto.  This site is number one in google searches on the pinto and is a great platform for correcting popular opinion.  I have spent allot of time fighting the myths vs. the facts over the past few years, many people told me we could not change the story, it is written.  But in using the Stampede as a platform I and we (there are more than just one Stampede organizer or participant)  have been very successfull getting quality print to say that the Pinto was not a death trap.  NY Times, Ny Daily News, Wall Street Journal, Times News Herald, Kansas City Star, Denver Post, Etc, Etc, Etc.  The new story is now, the pinto was a better car than previously believed. Not to mention the television and radio broadcasts that many of us have been a part of.  We have nothing to appologize for and need to set the record straight. Of course we will not change everyones mind, but stories like the one above are in my opinion a direct result of the work we have done so far.  Let's keep the pressure on and defend our beloved Pinto's.

Scott Hamilton

Quote from: r4pinto on August 21, 2012, 10:46:09 AM
Easier to get looks out of a beat up Pinto than a classic Mustang.

You are right about that Matt...
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

r4pinto

I think that would be a great idea Scott. It would help the public perception of the car, especially since a lot of people do have their own "Pinto story" and still like the car to this day. Easier to get looks out of a beat up Pinto than a classic Mustang.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Scott Hamilton

Yet another confirmation that our cars were safer than most of that era/class.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/814821-how-much-lower-until-facebook-finds-a-bottom-lower-than-you-think
"What many people don't realize is that the public preoccupation with the Pinto as a death trap was based largely on a myth. Motorists didn't die by the hundreds. In fact, the Pinto was as safe or safer than many of the cars in its class. But the idea, given weight by the seemingly callous cost-benefit analysis of the Pinto Memo, cemented the idea that Ford had knowingly produced and sold a time bomb without regard for consumer safety. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) ultimately demanded the recall of the Pinto."

We need someone to write a narrative with facts that can be confirmed about this and post it on our site where search index's can get it out there. We can also include the many links of similar articles on the net. Your Site (FordPinto.com) holds a unique key in searches about the Pinto and especially about the Explosion premise. We could make a serious dent the public percention (at least on internet searches) with our information forefront on most searches. This can only increase our cars value...
What do you guys think?
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)