Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,896
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,576
  • Total Topics: 16,268
  • Online today: 620
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 404
  • Total: 404
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

New project... 1980 Runabout

Started by r4pinto, June 18, 2012, 09:56:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Pintosopher

What hath the week wrought at this day of the Hump? Progress report?  The boys in the Bunkhouse want to know ;)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

r4pinto

The battery died on me the other day, then the used battery I bought from AutoZone yesterday failed as well. Had alternator tested and starter. Both tested perfectly but the battery was low on charge. It doesn't hold a charge very well so I went to Walmart and bought a brand new battery. Started perfectly this morning but then driving to work the car lost all power. I coasted to the side of the road and put it in neutral to restart and it was running. The engine apparently regained ignition and cranked back up with inertia from the transmission ( that's my guess but not 100% sure). Last night at the gym the car started and then died. When I jiggled the ignition module connectors the car refired so I'm guessing there is a short in the module. I will be installing the new module tonight after work. Next week I am on vacation so I will be putting the car on jack stands and rebuilding the entire front suspension. We're talking new shocks, ball joints, inner and outer tie rods, and coil springs. I will get the car realigned and the tires rotated since the front right tire is feathered on the inside edge from the worn inner tie rod. I will also flush the cooling system and  change the oil while it's in the air. Only about 2300 miles since it's last oil change but might as well do it all at once.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dga57

Whatever.... progress is progress!!!  Way to go!


Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

Pintosopher

Or the Squeal of an English Wheel on bent steel ::)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

r4pinto

Quote from: pintosopher on October 06, 2017, 03:19:03 PM
Ahh,  the Elevating impact of Balloon Logic in Kinetic energies...  Kaboom goes the Sonic barrier again.. Or was that the sound of a Sledge on Hatch rim? ;D
Sledge on 2x4


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Pintosopher

Ahh,  the Elevating impact of Balloon Logic in Kinetic energies...  Kaboom goes the Sonic barrier again.. Or was that the sound of a Sledge on Hatch rim? ;D
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

Not onward, but upward as in up, up, and away.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Pintosopher

Onward, forever onward, I say...  ;)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

r4pinto

Well the repair to the hatch seemed to work for now. I used a 2x4 and a 4 lb sledge to knock it in to shape. Might do some body patch work on the car once I get a new car and if so I will take care of the paint as well by sanding, and doing a rattle can paint job for now. The paint is junk on the car and flakes off easily so it will need to be sanded to the original color anyway before professionals paint the car, with some patch panels welded in. At least the car would look better rattle canned if done right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

r4pinto

It seems a simple thing like replacing the somewhat transmission fluid fouled plug on #1 has helped drastically. Last night the car ran better although not perfect and no starting problems after the car sat. Although it isn't completely correct and doing some work on the carburetor should help with that. I will address the vacuum lines at that time as well. I did however find out today the hatch leak is smaller but still there. The left four inches of the seat were wet so I have a little more tweaking on the hatch to do to get it completely sealed. Might just cut my losses and swap hatches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

r4pinto

And yet that was how my 77 was connected when I bought it. I'm not saying it was or was not correct however when it ran fine I had no other reason to think otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

r4pinto

And yet that was how my 77 was connected when I bought it. I'm not saying it was or was not correct however when it ran fine I had no other reason to think otherwise.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Pintosopher

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 04, 2017, 03:36:53 PM
Off the Holly web site. Manifold vacuum is high at idle and low at wide open throttle (WOT).Ported vacuum is weak at idle. strong at cruise and weak at WOT. I have never seen a Pinto Holly / Weber carb pulling vacuum off the intake manifold. It may be the easy way, but its not the right way.
Dick , absolutely correct,  the last Car I had with a manifold vacuum dist hookup was a '55 chevy 2 bbl 265. And it wasn't using a port fitting, just the carb base. That could've been wrong but it was easy.
Pintosopher,
I need more cerebral ports in my vacuum laden brain  ::)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

Off the Holly web site. Manifold vacuum is high at idle and low at wide open throttle (WOT).Ported vacuum is weak at idle. strong at cruise and weak at WOT. I have never seen a Pinto Holly / Weber carb pulling vacuum off the intake manifold. It may be the easy way, but its not the right way.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

r4pinto

Quote from: dick1172762 on October 04, 2017, 03:14:29 PM
     On a car with an automatic tranie it is very hard to hear one ping because as you slow down to climb a hill and put a load on the engine, the tranie will downshift. It would have to be so bad that the engine would most likely not start to hear it ping. BTW I have seen many post about never using manifold vacuum for the disturber advance. Also I know you should never have it hooked up when setting the timing.
The 77 I had was set up the exact same way as this car so I would have no reason to think it was not correct. As for setting the timing you ASSUMED I did not disconnect the line from the distributor when setting the timing before which I did. You know what they say about assuming.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dick1172762

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 01:01:58 PM
Also I want to add one thing I noticed is no sounds of any pinging whatsoever (that I could identify anyway)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
On a car with an automatic tranie it is very hard to hear one ping because as you slow down to climb a hill and put a load on the engine, the tranie will downshift. It would have to be so bad that the engine would most likely not start to hear it ping. BTW I have seen many post about never using manifold vacuum for the disturber advance. Also I know you should never have it hooked up when setting the timing.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Pintosopher

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 02:06:59 PM
Ultimately I want it to be as close to correct as possible. I may try to see if I can get the original carburetor to spray fuel and use it instead of the frankencarb on the car now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok, In the meantime, verify using the diagram, all of the emissions components present on your car. If you find wiring or pieces missing, I'll do my best to decipher the mess. 1980 isn't that much different from a 1977 , unless it's a California car.  :P If you have that vacuum controlled exhaust heat riser valve in the exhaust, make sure it's not frozen partially closed or even open too! It must have a functioning diaphragm to not allow air into the system unnecessarily, In fact, all vacuum pots must be functioning with no bleed down while checked with vacuum pump tool.

Pintosopher, Life can be lived in a vaccum, but it never sux   :-X
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

r4pinto

Ultimately I want it to be as close to correct as possible. I may try to see if I can get the original carburetor to spray fuel and use it instead of the frankencarb on the car now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Pintosopher

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 01:00:49 PM
So with that info I have two questions. Will having the vacuum advance hooked to intake vacuum cause some of this as opposed to ported vacuum? Is it possible that 77s had them set up that way? And last but not least how does one adjust the fuel mix on the carburetor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Unless there is a vacuum control valve, like the throttle angle vacuum switch, or the vacuum regulator solenoid shown in the diagram I sent, any connection to the intake manifold results in full manifold vacuum to the Advance mechanism on the Dist at Idle. Ported vacuum is a low vacuum port to prevent any influence on the advance mechanism until the Butterflies move off the seat, (idle seat screw), hence limited or no vacuum at idle to prevent the spark advance from causing (dieseling) run on and why the carb has a Throttle Positioning idle solenoid.
This is why many attempts to adjust the tune are challenged if the whole equation isn't factory pertaining to components on the car.

Let me know how far you are willing to go with this relative to OEM setup...
Pintosopher, the hard way, is the one that sticks with you,
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

r4pinto

Also I want to add one thing I noticed is no sounds of any pinging whatsoever (that I could identify anyway)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

r4pinto

So with that info I have two questions. Will having the vacuum advance hooked to intake vacuum cause some of this as opposed to ported vacuum? Is it possible that 77s had them set up that way? And last but not least how does one adjust the fuel mix on the carburetor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Pintosopher

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 11:51:55 AM
Thanks for shooting those. The 80 had the dual converters when the 77 did not. I think the 77 was federal emissions since its carb had nothing to it. Very oddballish. Will have to make do with what is available to make it work. As for the 80 plugs... so you're saying the plugs indicate both lean and rich at the same time? I ordered a new ignition box and will also more than likely replace the distributor to see if that helps. Chasing the problem but no choice. Will also pull the carburetor, new filter, and check the float to see if that does any good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
From my earliest apprenticeship as a Mechanic with 2 & 4 stroke engines. A properly tuned mixture for a 2 stroke (oil Mix or injection) is the Coffee creamed color ( insulator)for the full throttle Plug check. Any heavy soot at the rim of the plug is idle circuit richness (2 or 4 stroke)  this is for Carbureted engines as a reference. The color of # 1 indicates recent oil presence in the fuel mix (ATF?) or intake valve guide seal leakage on #1. Modern Emission controlled 4 stroke engines usually run near white  or grey at the plug insulator for Mid to full throttle. Much of this is due to calibration of Fuel injection Pre-OBD or Most OBD emissions.
In the case of a unwanted air bleed into the intake, no soot at idle, and bone white insulator with risk  for detonations (pinging) and possible engine damage under load.
That would also explain any unusual gas mileage benefit too, but seldom is present without pinging.

More variables, but in the absence of proof of a mechanical issue..  (Google Leakdown You tube videos)  this is where we are ::)

Pintosopher  The answers are out there, I want to believe, therefore I must know :o
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

r4pinto

Thanks for shooting those. The 80 had the dual converters when the 77 did not. I think the 77 was federal emissions since its carb had nothing to it. Very oddballish. Will have to make do with what is available to make it work. As for the 80 plugs... so you're saying the plugs indicate both lean and rich at the same time? I ordered a new ignition box and will also more than likely replace the distributor to see if that helps. Chasing the problem but no choice. Will also pull the carburetor, new filter, and check the float to see if that does any good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Pintosopher

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 07:20:04 AM
Oh it's beyond frustration. I'm trying to drive this thing so I don't rack up miles on a car with broken heat so I can trade it in April and it keeps acting up. I've even tried to look for vacuum diagrams to see if they were never hooked up right on the 77 but can't get a straight answer.  So I will try to describe it. The EGR line is running to the bottom port on the carburetor, and the distributor is to the intake vacuum port on the front port of the intake. Is it possible the previous owners of the 77 had it hooked up wrong? Yep. But being as I have nothing to compare to I had to hook it up the same way since it's the 77 carb on the 80.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
More stuff.. PiX!
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Pintosopher

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 07:20:04 AM
Oh it's beyond frustration. I'm trying to drive this thing so I don't rack up miles on a car with broken heat so I can trade it in April and it keeps acting up. I've even tried to look for vacuum diagrams to see if they were never hooked up right on the 77 but can't get a straight answer.  So I will try to describe it. The EGR line is running to the bottom port on the carburetor, and the distributor is to the intake vacuum port on the front port of the intake. Is it possible the previous owners of the 77 had it hooked up wrong? Yep. But being as I have nothing to compare to I had to hook it up the same way since it's the 77 carb on the 80.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here is a image of the 77 and later emissions for the 2.3L
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Pintosopher

Quote from: r4pinto on October 04, 2017, 09:39:47 AM
Fuel to the fire. Plug check. Cylinder one looks worse than the others. Included is the number one plug and one from number four. 2-4 all look the same. I smelled number one and it was residual transmission fluid. Will buy a new plug for the number one cylinder


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Strangely enough, Your # 1 insulator is the  right mixure color (beige) for a plug check at high RPM, But all plugs showing soot around the rim which is rich At idle to 1/8 -1/4 throttle. Plain white on the insulator is a lean condition for a carbureted engine.
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

r4pinto

I did smell them before and they were fine. The only one that wasn't was the one that is apparently still fouled with transmission fluid and will be replacing it. If it were that rich the mpgs would be in the toilet and oil in the gas. I have neither. As for the float it was fine before however I will be pulling the carburetor to see what may be wrong with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dick1172762

A very rich mixture can wash the plugs off and make you think their ok. Smelling them will tell all if you look and smell after driving the car. At times they will look brand new. Most of the time the rich condition will be because by the float or the power valve.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

r4pinto

Fuel to the fire. Plug check. Cylinder one looks worse than the others. Included is the number one plug and one from number four. 2-4 all look the same. I smelled number one and it was residual transmission fluid. Will buy a new plug for the number one cylinder


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Pintosopher

I will dig into my Books and look for the Vacuum diagrams for both 77 & 80 and get back to you. Rich mixtures could be a sinking float in the carb bowl, allowing the fuel to pour in..

Back by 10AM PST
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...