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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

New to you Junkyard wheels

Started by Jessi, January 24, 2012, 02:15:06 PM

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0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mikerich1972

Just for the record, the wheels in my profile pic are from a '91 TBird. 14" for sure.
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

dragnfyr

Out of curiosity, has there been any updates to this list? Also, is this list for the 4 or 5 lugs roters/drums??

Drag

76hotrodpinto

I'm not a fan the phone dials. The only reason I'm considering them is just the price and the fact that it would be temporary. My main concern is just the offset and any rubbing. Big holes, little holes... I can deal with holes of all sizes!
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

Dick makes an interesting point. The placement of the studs, the taper on the nut, the accuracy of the stamped steel wheel are all potentially ripe for some degree of inaccuracy. Then, what value is there in a hub-centric wheel?  In a perfect world, yea, an aluminum wheel hub-centric to precision studs and bolts is all well and good. But, you better have the tire trued too. And, even there, regardless of balance on the rim a tire that has more weight to any area will elongate the faster it spins.

All this said, I think the hub issue most are encountering with current 4.25" wheels (Escort, Cougar etc.) is the center hole is too small for the hub on the Pinto - even putting the offset issue aside.  I tried the Cougar wheel on a Bobcat and couldn't get it over the hub.  I'd be careful to trust some of the wheel charts out there. Most only consider the bolt pattern and not hub hole size or offset.   FWIW, I put the 16" factory '88 T/C wheels on my Pinto (for a while). I had to space them off the rear spring about 1/4" and they rubbed on the front fender somewhat with the 225-60-16" tires.  Not ideal. And, I thought they looked out of place too.  See...

slooldracer

I just bought 2 sets of Bassett Racing wheels  part # 47SP4S  from Summit for vintage  racing this season .  They should also make great road wheels.
The older I get, the faster I was

dick1172762

What nobody has talked about is after market "mag" wheels. If the fit of the center hole was so important, why do the majority of the company's  sell their wheels with an oversize hub hole? I have raced ever kind of automobile on ever kind of track and the majority of the wheels were  located only by the lug bolts. The wheel company's make their wheels to fit many cars with hubs in many sizes. If the clearance of the hub was so important why would they do this. I ran American Libra 13x7 wheels on all of my Pinto's and the center holes of those wheels was not only bigger than the hub it was as casted from American Wheels. The Libra wheel was the most used wheel in road racing in the 70/80 in SCCA and U-2 Trans am. There are many things to worry about on a car today but how your wheels are held on is not one of them. If you really need to worry about something, go worry about people using FWD wheels on their RWD cars with 1 to 2 inch spacers/adapters to make them fit. That is really BAD! Just remember that if it works on a race car it will be overkill on the street. And bad mouthing Jessi should be a no no on this forum. Keep up the good work Jessi and please keep on posting on here.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Pintopowers

When i junked my 83 mustang convertible, (4lug) i put the wheels on my 79 pinto (4lug) with no lug troubles,, Only hang up i had was the tire profile on the front, (plastic fender liners rubbed). Dont see why they wouldnt bolt up.... :)

SR

76hotrodpinto

Woah! Some kinda wheel drama there!

I read through this thread(my head hurts now), and some others, but wasn't able to find if anyone has determined if 1985 mustang gt's factory ten hole "phone dial" ford 4 lug wheels will fit a 76. I'm switching over to the 5 lug eventually, but I need new tires now, as I drive mine daily. And they're about the same diameter I think I'll end up with after the 5 lug swap.

Ps. Wrapped in 225 60 15's.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

slooldracer

Any 14 inch  4 bolt Foxbody Mustang wheel  fits.  The're everywhere cheap. If you find other 14 inch wheels that fit, and center hole is too small. Contact Racer Walsh in Jacksonville Florida for wheel spacers. I have been using the 14 inch Mustang wheels for racing, never had any issue.
The older I get, the faster I was

pinto_one

Good luck , the only 15" steel wheel with that bolt patern are rare 1985-86 fox body,Mustangs, fairmont police cars, they were 15X7 ,  AND the ford part number is E6ZZ-1007A ,  early cheep ones are 14" hope this helps
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

72DutchWagon

Hey pinto_one,

yes, you're right, 13 inch capri, taunus escort and cortina wheels still around.
But I'm looking for 15 inch on a budget, even steel ones, there's plenty around in a radius of 50 miles, and I don't want (need) to spend more then $ 150, including reasonable tires...

pinto_one

Hey 72Dutch wagon, you can use wheels off a early capri over there , should be few there in you neck of the woods, or go to burtonpower.com and look at the catalog they have under minilite wheels , they have them from 13X5 all the way up to 15X10, and 108 MM (4 1/4 ") spacers also ,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

72DutchWagon

Another addition to an old post, but I think this info belongs here, like Wittsend said in 2013.
I'm looking around for replacement wheels for my 72 wagon in The Netherlands, using 4x108mm bolt pattern and 63.4 mm hub center diameter as guideline.
Soon found out that although many Ford FWD (for example Focus) wheels fit these requirements, the offset is way too big, like ET 40 to ET 52!
Better to hunt here (Europe) for Peugeot and Citroën FWD wheels because these have the same bolt pattern, but the offset is more realistic for our purposes, between ET 23 and ET 28. Hub center diameter is 65.1 mm, so center rings required.
As it happens I came across four 25 mm wheel adapters, which were bought and test fitted.
They seemed to be to lose around the hub center. Measurement of the hub center resulted in 61.9 mm (axle is a 6.75 WGF – N)!  This problem can be solved by cutting some 0.75 mm sheet metal and fitting this between the hub center and adapter.
I have nowhere found any information about this (different hub center diameter for earlier generation Pinto's), and another mystery; according to fordification.com my axle is a 74-76 piece.
I also haven't  found any reliable data on stock ET (wheel offset) numbers for early Pinto's, just a mention of 10 mm offset for stock Mustang II's.

JohnW

Any FWD wheel will be too high of an offset. Like the Cougars. My 15x7 +12 Enkeis are a pretty low offset, and they still hit the ball joint and control arm without spacers. I rounded off the edge of the ball joint flange and they fit with sticky weights, but the lip hit the side of the control arm at full lock.

Be aware: The wheel may clear the ball joint barely, but then jam into the control arm at full lock. The ball joint actually sits outside of the stock tiny, low offset wheels. Any wheel that sits OVER the ball joint will have control arm clearance issues.
-

Wittsend

  I know this is a two year old post, but it seems intended to provide necessary information and I feel I can add to it.  Recently I was at the junkyard and did a test fit on a 78 Bobcat with a "16x6 1999 and up Mercury Cougar" wheel as listed in the initial post. This wheel did NOT fit.

  Once I was aware of the lack of fitment I just moved on. However, to the best of my recollection it seemed the center hole was not large enough.  This seems odd because this wheel is listed as a 63.4mm opening and that is what was stated as the Pinto hub size in the first post.  So, perhaps the upper ball joint was hitting?  Though, that seems odd for a car that came with 13" wheels.

  I have also extensively read (but not tested) that many of the Mustang wheels (Turbine/Hurricane, 10 Hole) need a spacer on the front to clear suspension parts.  While the list is encouraging for options it seems the real world "bolt on" prospects diminish through trial and error.  Proceed with caution.

Tom

arkyt

Hope you stay on the site!  Your info was great.  Sorry about the disagreement taking over.  I'll take any info, advice, suggestions, check 'em out and see what works.  To me, what fits, fits.  It's your job to see to know if it's what you need, safe for your use, and what you need.  Cars running around on space saver sparescome to mind.  hey do any of them fit a Pinto?  (Sarcasm) 
78 sedan
77 V8 cruizin wagon
73 MGB
09 Challenger RT

dennll

Thanks for this info! Question: you list Focus, 2000 and later; will the 17" rims (7" width) fit? Looks like a 215/45R17 would match the stock size for height pretty well, just not sure about the other parameters.

Thanks!

racer99

Hmm,I believe 75-80 Granadas were not on a Fox platform
as they have leaf springs.They were 5 lug.

81-82 Granadas were Foxes with 4 lug pattern,my 81 Granada
bracket wagon is all Fox.

The Fox wagons came with 10 in brakes and the axle centering ring
was larger than the 9 in. brake rears which meant the die grinder and
the 10 hole wheels became aquainted to fit correctly.

Starliner

Hello Jessi,
I think it is very good to get as many opinions as possible while keeping it in a positive manner.
This is a discussion forum.  We get more value by having a volley of opinions and information.   

I think it was valid for me to point out the safety and concentricity concerns as part of this discussion.
I owned a foreign car repair facility for eight years from 1973-1981 (serviced VW, Opels, & Capri).   I also did a lot of drag racing and street racing.
Today I work for a corporation and I am now in charge of our China manufacturing facility and I am also director of engineering.  I have been involved heavily with hybrid cars in China and have full knowledge of all aspects of vehicle dynamics.

I thank you very much for the extra effort you put forth to give everyone various wheel options.   It is very good information. 
This is a great Pinto community and a good resource.  I don't want to alienate anyone.
So please accept my apology if I came on too strong with my comments.       
1973 Pinto 1600 - Sold!  
1979 Pinto 2300 - Sold!
1984 Audi 5000 Avant - 60,000 original miles
1987 Audi 5000 S Quattro - The snowmobile
1973 Volvo 1800 ES wagon -  my project car
1976 Mustang II - Wifey's new toy

dave1987

I am starting to get the vibe that this is becoming more of a competitive argument and less of a discussion. May I recomend further arguments be limited to personal messages?
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

JohnW

Quote from: Jessi on February 08, 2012, 05:56:55 PMYou are still saying that all Fords are hub centric, and it is a fact, yadda, yadda, yadda, yet still even after calling you out to prove this "known fact" you still have not. So where is the proof, beyond just your say so. I mean you talk about misleading people, but you have still not proven the point.
Where am I going to find an article to link to explicitly stating this? Reading through Explorer/Ranger forums It seems to be the consensus, and companies mention it when they sell wheels to fit Fords. Really you just need to look at how a factory Ford wheel fits - they're all nice and tight around the hub.

Where's the proof to your 'fact' that 98% of steel wheels are lug-centric?
-

Jessi

Thanks Dave.

I read an entire article before I make decisions. If your read the entire article it says that junkyard rims "will fit". Every vehicle listed has the same wheel lug pattern as the Pinto, which is the point of the article. It doesn't say that those wheels will be right for the vehicle. In fact at the bottom of the article, quoted for a third time.......

"The point is that this guide is for reference to help you in your search","So measure before you buy."

So I don't know how many different ways to say it. It just seems that when you can't prove a point (like the Granada)you just evolve your argument until you are on a tangent that is nit picking.

You are still saying that all Fords are hub centric, and it is a fact, yadda, yadda, yadda, yet still even after calling you out to prove this "known fact" you still have not. So where is the proof, beyond just your say so. I mean you talk about misleading people, but you have still not proven the point.

Either way I am not going to argue it anymore, you have succeeded in hijacking the thread. However if someone has questions about the information provided in this thread, I will be more than happy to help you out, so just message me.
2009 Ford F350 15 pass van
2002 Jeep Wrangler
1975 Ford Pinto Sedan

dave1987

In all honesy, he did put his disclaimer at the end. Anyone who reads fine print or an entire article before making a decision would catch it. Even if they didn't read the whole thing and took the majority of the article as fact, they still couldn't hold him accountable since he included his disclaimer.

Its all very common in liscense agreements and contracts. In the possible negative outcome for someone taking the entire thing as fact, the real only person that can be held responsible for purchasing wheels in error is the consumer/reader.

This is one of the great things about message boards like this one. People can post replies with more in depth information, comments and questions, and the original post can always be revised with new information or facts. If he wanted to make this idea public and state it as fact he could post it as an article elsewhere or in a magazine, which he did not.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

JohnW

I wasn't trying to attack you, I just don't want to see people take advice that may cause a problem. You wouldn't be too happy if someone told you that you could put a set of wheels on your car, only to find out they wouldn't clear after you paid the money and got home from the junkyard.

It also is a fact that Fords are hub-centric. You may be able to run lug-centric wheels, but the car was not intended to use them.

What I can find on the Saab wheels is that the offset seems to be at least +41, up to +49 on some cars. I'll bet you that won't work correctly on a Pinto or any RWD car with the bolt pattern. I can't find the numbers for the Pinto, Mustang II, Fox Body, etc but I know it's less than that. Not only will there be more positive offset, but it will be a wider wheel too.

You worded it like it was fact. "It means that junk yard wheels will fit your Pinto, but what do you look for?" and then a list - someone could easily see that and go out and buy a set of wheels that won't fit based on your post. It happens all of the time on the internet.
-

dholvrsn

'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

Jessi

To quote you John they are "most likely wrong" which would mean you do not know. My problem with your other post is you did not state it as opinion, but rather fact. If you do not know for sure then you need to research it. Also just to give you a heads up, I always research before making a post. ALWAYS. So as to whether a Granada has a 4 or 5 lug. Well we are both right. So there.

The Granada was made from 78-88 as was the LTD2, and the fairmont (which is the one I left off) all of these were made during these model years, and ALL of them at some point came with a four lug. For the Granada it was 1981-82 its last model year. It wasn't meant to read that they all came with 4 lugs (thats not the point of the original post anyway is it). What it means is between the years of 78-88 these are some cars to look at for 4 lug wheels. So I did look it up then, just as I did now to be sure (I wouldn't want to give mis-information). In fact the alloy wheel option on the 1981 ford Granada is not only a perfect fit, but a perfect look for the Pinto also.

Then we come to the point of lug-centric vs hub-centric (since we're beating a dead horse anyway) the original post doesn't sound like opinion, it sounds like you are stating what you believe to be fact, which would have made it unfounded fact.

Either way just like I said at the bottom of the write up.......
"I know that some of these had regular wheels stock, but the Mustangs, Focus, Contour, T-birds all not only came with nice looking wheels stock, but are also hugely popular to have aftermarket wheels installed on. Remember that these measurements come from a sample of cars, not all of them. So it is possible to find 5 lug stangs, and LTDs, it is also possible that a stock steelie on a Granada may measure out at 15x8. The point is that this guide is for reference to help you in your search, it is not necessarily all inclusive, or the gospel for all models of mustang. So measure before you buy."

So getting past all of that there is also another thing I would like to say John, both to you and Starliner.

I am sorry, I took your arguments as personal when all I wanted was to help people. It doesn't mean that I think either of you are right in your opinion, it means I got personal by taking it personal, when I should just let the write up stand alone, and let people make up their own minds.
2009 Ford F350 15 pass van
2002 Jeep Wrangler
1975 Ford Pinto Sedan

JohnW

You are correct about offset, I did mix them up and will edit the post. It was late at night and I should have known the difference. Regardless of mixing them up, those Saabs and later Fords are front wheel drive and the offset is most likely wrong for a Pinto.

And what does mixing up postive/negative offset have to do with knowledge about hub-centric vs. lug centric wheels? You're using one point I messed up on to invalidate a completely different one (which was just an observation that I wasn't saying is correct) without actually addressing it. Also, just because a vehicle uses conical or ball seat lugs doesn't mean that it is not hub-centric. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Also, Granadas are Fox Bodies, but they do in fact have a 5x4.5 bolt pattern - while the Mustangs and Fairmonts of the time were 4x4.25. Go look it up, using Granada rotors is how many people convert Pintos, Fox Body Mustangs, and Mustang II IFS kits in other cars to 5 lug. You shouldn't accuse me of not doing my research when you didn't either.
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Jessi

John at least do your homework before commenting on a thread.

Negative offset wheels - what you see when you see a deep dish wheel
Positive offset wheels- Generally found on front wheel drive cars.
By the way John yes the 78 Granada/ Fairmont was a fox body car, you know like the Mustangs that you comment about.

No wonder this site has nothing but old outdated information, you guys are not open to new ideas. I mean Starliner starts throwing out the Safety cones, and saying safety violation, yet he hasn't given any real facts that he has backed up. John starts spouting off something about non round holes, and stress cracks yet doesn't even know what the different types of offset are, or what they mean.

Do you guys even know how extremely rare it is to even see a broken lug bolt that wasn't due to installer error, like cross threading and impacting it down? I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were a real issue, and you backed it up with evidence.  (like i did)

I am not only a 20+ year ASE certified mechanic, but an avid offroader of a Jeep running 35" tires. My wheels are lug centric, like 98% of all steel rims are, and I have taco-ed rims before breaking lugs. In fact I have never broken a lug, though I have broken D44 axles.

Do what you want with the thread, cause I am done with it and this site in general.
2009 Ford F350 15 pass van
2002 Jeep Wrangler
1975 Ford Pinto Sedan

JohnW

Regardless of how the lugs locate the wheel, in a Ford you should always have the correct size hub. Fords are pretty much always hub-centric and studs can break if you try to run it as lug-centric. It doesn't matter if you have the conical lug seat - the design took the wheel sitting on the hub into account. A set of 14" wheels I took off of another Pinto don't have a round center hole - it's flared in 4 spots to hold a cap. Since it doesn't sit completely on the hub, it appears to have gotten stress cracks around the hub over time. The hub-centric rings are also pretty much junk - some metal ones may be ok but even then I've heard varying reports. If you're going to go that route, go for quality and not price.

Also, chances are the Saab, 99+ Cougar, and Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique wheels will not fit a Pinto. Front wheel drive cars have a lot more positive offset. Basically, for choices, you have Fox body Mustangs and 4 lug Cougars/T-Birds. Wasn't the Granada 5x4.5? I recall those rotors being what you need to convert a Pinto front end to 5 lug.
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Starliner

We can agree to not agree.   
That said, with a Pinto being very light in weight the hub fitting is not as critical as a heavy vehicle like as truck or SUV. 

Cheers
1973 Pinto 1600 - Sold!  
1979 Pinto 2300 - Sold!
1984 Audi 5000 Avant - 60,000 original miles
1987 Audi 5000 S Quattro - The snowmobile
1973 Volvo 1800 ES wagon -  my project car
1976 Mustang II - Wifey's new toy