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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

My install of Subframe Connectors into ProjectFrankenpinto...

Started by vonkysmeed, March 23, 2011, 01:02:56 PM

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vonkysmeed

I am amazed at how much less the body flexes.  not much in noises except for the rear body panel near the right tail light, but that is due to a different reason.   it would be best to connect between the front and rear spring perches of the rear axle. but that will be for another day.

next project is the front suspension.
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

dave1987

It's been awhile since this was done, wondering if you could describe the sound from the rear that you have now? I'm wondering if it's something I could live with if I decide to do connectors this way (it's what I've been tossing around in my head).
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

oldeguy

Great job on the docmentation of this project!

Enjoy driving the improved Pinto!!!!
at some point...2.3L EFI T3/4stageIII FMIC 55#inj eecla3 90mm MAF 65mm T/B 5 spd 8.8 w/ 3:73  11" rotors, GM Metric, explorer rear disc 205 55 14 fronts 225 50 15 rears subframe connectors w/ a 6 point roll bar

vonkysmeed

no more pictures unless there is a catastrophic failure, but I will say that they are doing something...  I lost 3/4 of my rattles, squeaks and creaks.  Front suspension still makes noise, but I expect that.  I have picked up one new sound from the rear end, but may be due to my attachment to the spring perch. 

My recommendation to anyone, install a connector if you plan on putting any power into the car.  I had no idea how much of a flexi flyer the car actually was. 
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

vonkysmeed

This should be my last update for this before the show as I am in assembly mode to get it ready for the show.  I still have some welding on the back section of the car, but that is not critical for the show and will not be done until after. 

On with more pictures. 



between my subframe connectors, I put in a drive shaft safety loop that I have had for the last 6 years since I started.  It is a simple one from Summit Racing, but will do its job when needed  (hopefully never)



Here you can see that I used some 1'8" flat stock to make a tab to hold it in place and bolt through to the body for 2 bolts on each side.  The connector can be removed as needed once the bolts are removed by either sliding forward or back. 

73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

dave1987

Looking good! I'm tagging along on some of these Pinto frame upgrade threads since I plan to drop a 289 or 302 (whichever is still available 5-10 years from now) into my 78. It's always been my dad's dream to drop a 289 into the car...
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

vonkysmeed





Cut these pieces to fit and then welded the ends to keep moisture out.  Still have to close up the tie down location on the perch side.



Tacked into place checking for any additional issues.



Holding up one of the bolt plates from the cage to determine if it will work and to see where I will need to apply the primer before I weld it in place



Welded it in place.  I did not tie it to the sheet metal, only the structural pieces and the spring perch mounts.  I will go back and seal up any gaps I have left with some sort of sealant prior to any application of under coating



Applied primer to the top side of the weld plates so that it will be sealed for the most part.  I also sprayed primer to the bottom of the car that I had cleared off where it was going to be covered.



Tacked the plate into place for a final fitment



Fully welded it into place where it met the structural members.  I also welded the spring perch pieces together to make sure that they would not pull apart.  May be over kill, but that seems to be the theme lately.

Next week so that it is ready for the show, I will put the driveshaft loop in and change out the rear trans seal so that it may stop leaking and causing more damage to the transmission.  After that, it will be reassembly to get it ready for the show. 

73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

vonkysmeed

I will take a picture of it tonight, but it will be tied back into the subframe connector.

Because I did not take the connector out past the back of the body, I have decided to place the 90 degree piece against the body and connector.  This will die directly into the spring perch near the bolt for the spring.  From there, I will use one of my bolt plates (before I welded the roll bar in) and weld the plate on 3 sides (connector, vertical spring bracket, and the piece I weld to the body and connector.  If close enough, I may finish it up and weld the 4th side to the body (under the roll bar base plate)  From the 90 degree connector toward the back of the car, I may cut the other bolt plate into a gusset and take it back to the back of the spring perch.  If that does not tie it in, I do not know what will other than back halfing the car and that is not in the near future.
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

oldeguy

need to get some of the stuff you guys are taking  ;D 
It a smilie face with the two e d b d I's and the ovaled mouth!
Now back to the subframe spring perch tie in...in my eyes your going to have two major forces, one trying to pull the perch back (spring rap) and up (the torque transfer under hard acceleration. so, need to address how to tie these forces into your present subframe and roll bar. my $0.02
at some point...2.3L EFI T3/4stageIII FMIC 55#inj eecla3 90mm MAF 65mm T/B 5 spd 8.8 w/ 3:73  11" rotors, GM Metric, explorer rear disc 205 55 14 fronts 225 50 15 rears subframe connectors w/ a 6 point roll bar

Srt

looks like a bum i saw climbing out of a railroad car at work one night!
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

vonkysmeed

Quote from: RSM on March 30, 2011, 11:29:03 PM
Just kidding about it being Jesus...but it really looks like a face to me lol

your right, it looks more like the Virgin Mary than Jesus. 

Thanks for the smile. 
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

RSM

Just kidding about it being Jesus...but it really looks like a face to me lol

RSM

Is it just me or does it look like a face in the pic of the hanger? Kinda straight up from the weld and to the right of the spring bolt. Could it be Jesus?... :surprised:

oldeguy

at some point...2.3L EFI T3/4stageIII FMIC 55#inj eecla3 90mm MAF 65mm T/B 5 spd 8.8 w/ 3:73  11" rotors, GM Metric, explorer rear disc 205 55 14 fronts 225 50 15 rears subframe connectors w/ a 6 point roll bar

vonkysmeed

More pictures



Started off the day by removing paint, undercoating and what ever else is under the car to make it so that I can weld the perches to the body.  I could definitely see that if loaded, it would not take much to remove it from the car.  Even if you do not plan on installing a subframe connector, look into making the spring perch a more solid connection.  I also have figured out how I will do my connection, but more on that later....



Sorry, jumped sides for ease of pictures from under the car (no lift)  This is the passenger side and you can see that the perch is just spot welded to both the body and other pieces of the assembly.  Also, if you look closely to the right of the oval tie down location, you will notice that when I welded the cage to the floor, it pushed the corner of the cage through the floor in the corner.  It will be welded up as well.  You can also see where my cage has been welded and notice that the top of the cage mounting plate was in fact directly over the spring perch.



Starting to weld the perch up to the body.  Still need to remove a little debris before I finish up top.




Once done, I got back up and went on top.  I think I can now guess the permieter of the mount.  The main portion was made of 1/8" steel with the minor portion being around 14 to 16 gauge around the alignment holes.

I will have more updates on thursday then not until next monday. 
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

vonkysmeed

Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on March 26, 2011, 10:09:23 PM
Hey there , great work. Very clean.
I would definiatly attach the leaf eyes to the connectors. Its the only solid thing back there. All the forces of acceleration are acting on those 2 leaf eyes.
Heres how i did it.



Thanks for the picture.  If you look at my pictures I stupidly stopped the tube early and did not continue it through the body.  Looking at what I do have though, I can do one of several things. 

1) take a small piece of tube on the outside of the body (not curved as your photo shows) on the angle and end it at the eye.

2) take a tube inside my tube and extend it to where I need to go

3) Put another piece of tube on top of the connector through the body and then make the right turn to the eye. 

Those are just off the top of my head,   i will be looking at it further tomorrow so that I can get something done before I move onto the next step which is closing in my body around my fuel cell cage I made so that I can safely put the windows back in with out fear of gassing my self to death. 

I will also be welding the spring perches to the car since I know that they are only spot welded in place and have seen some fatigue on the passenger side front one where the spots looked to be pulling through. 

I will post more tomorrow night as I get more done. 
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

71hotrodpinto

Hey there , great work. Very clean.
I would definiatly attach the leaf eyes to the connectors. Its the only solid thing back there. All the forces of acceleration are acting on those 2 leaf eyes.
Heres how i did it.



95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

pintoman1972

Let me join those who are following along and are admiring your engineering and welding work.  My Blown Pinto was built in the mid 1970's along similar work of being back halved with welded in frame connectors and an 8 point roll cage.  Although certified to drag race back in the 1970-1980's, it is out of certification now and that is why I am making it street legal.

Your welding looks good to my eye.  Only you can be the true judge and you seem very conscious of the safety issues which are extremely important.  You also need to be commended on the presentation of your progress.  Excellent pictures and easy to follow descriptions.  Looking forward to more progress postings.

Dick

vonkysmeed

Solved the debate, It was sanctioning bodies of all things.  If for NHRA, I kept finding that Bolted with sandwich plates was prefered, for SCCA, they wanted it bolted or welded.  After looking more at my car, I found that some idiot took a grinder to some of the welds on 2 of the bar connections and made the cage no good in the eyes of NHRA, so I made the executive decision to pull the bolts and weld it to the body.  To get it out would require either cutting the car or the roll bar. 

On with more pictures. 

First is to remove any and all paint using what ever method you want.  I ended up using wire brushes on my grinder, drill and dremel depending on space requirements.  You can see my notes that there was a tear where the sandwich plates sheared through the body and it looks like 2 of the spots have been pulled.  The one on the right looks like it almost tore out.  The underside will be next weeks adventure as I need to pull the exhaust and drive shaft to add more stuff.  See Below.



Spot weld first, then remove the bolts and then follow through with the continuous welds around.   



When welding, take care of the seam sealer and other flammable items like the thick rubber guard between the door and front tire.  (oops)



When done, apply primer.  Notice my patch panel over the hole that was left from the day before.  I had scrap steel from an old cut up Pinto Hood and used a hole saw to cut the piece out. Then cut it in half and removed the paint for the perfect piece.  Welded to the connector first since my main current went through there and then hammered the panel in place to fit the surrounding panels. 



Working out how to connect the suspension, but will most likely place my structural steel on the angle provided by the car (30 degrees) and have it die into the perch on one side and run closer to the tunnel.


While the car has the exhaust out, I will pull the drive shaft and install the drive shaft loop.  It will be installed between the subframe connectors and could possibly provide some additional support.  Do not know if I will weld it in place, but the likely hood is there.  While there, I will also pull the drive shaft seal from the transmission and get it replaced so I can keep it full and not burn out 4th any further than it already is. 

More to be posted next week.

73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

oldeguy

the crossroad...bolt vs weld on the 6 point?

so...what is the benefit of having the 6 point roll bar bolted in?

Can it be removed?

what is the disadvantage of having it welded in place?

Think a written list of pro vs con on each option would be my approach, once done, leave it for a day then review it, but I'm sure your doing something like this.
at some point...2.3L EFI T3/4stageIII FMIC 55#inj eecla3 90mm MAF 65mm T/B 5 spd 8.8 w/ 3:73  11" rotors, GM Metric, explorer rear disc 205 55 14 fronts 225 50 15 rears subframe connectors w/ a 6 point roll bar

vonkysmeed

Quote from: oldeguy on March 25, 2011, 06:42:36 AM
Just a thought....

to tie the subframe to the rollbar, a sq tube piece fish mouth to the roll bar hoop, then 90* to the newly welded in subframe sq. tube. may have to overlap the newly welded subframe, but i think that would look good and tie it together nicely.

for the spring perch, kind of the same thing only maybe using a section of round tubing, or maybe a flat stock gusset piece, with a flat plate to connect to the perch...like the roll bar mount to the body?

my $0.02

BTW...great progress, great job on documenting the progress and nice job on the subframe install!


Thank you for the kind words.  I have had the same thought, but am currently at a cross roads. 

Do I weld the cage to the body or do I keep it as is and keep it bolted in.  If I weld it in, I would use the method you mentioned using the material I already have along with some additional steel reinforcement on the underside.  IF I keep it bolted, I would run gusseted 1/8" thick  tabs off the connector making new bolt plates on the bottom side.  I am also thinking of making tabs for my seats when I get new ones.  What you are not seeing is that I also have a drive shaft loop that I plan on using to connect the 2 connectors and also protect the car from any issues if it were to blow a front U joint (not that I plan on any hard starts  :evil: )
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

oldeguy

Just a thought....

to tie the subframe to the rollbar, a sq tube piece fish mouth to the roll bar hoop, then 90* to the newly welded in subframe sq. tube. may have to overlap the newly welded subframe, but i think that would look good and tie it together nicely.

for the spring perch, kind of the same thing only maybe using a section of round tubing, or maybe a flat stock gusset piece, with a flat plate to connect to the perch...like the roll bar mount to the body?

my $0.02

BTW...great progress, great job on documenting the progress and nice job on the subframe install!
at some point...2.3L EFI T3/4stageIII FMIC 55#inj eecla3 90mm MAF 65mm T/B 5 spd 8.8 w/ 3:73  11" rotors, GM Metric, explorer rear disc 205 55 14 fronts 225 50 15 rears subframe connectors w/ a 6 point roll bar

vonkysmeed

More Pictures



Mostly finished.



Only have the hole to fill on both sides and will use some of what I cut off the floor to patch it in. 



I still need to patch the holes, but I did not want to let it sit exposed to the damp air with all of the rain we are getting.  I still also need to figure out how to tie in the suspension. 



I realized that I should have continued the connector through so that the cross bar could tie in, but I have several ideas in my head at the moment.  You can see my bolt plate for the roll bar sitting on part of the tab for the front suspension.  I could also weld on the angle of the rear across to the perch, but that would require me dropping the rear suspension and I am not thrilled about that idea.  Last is to make a new bolt plate that runs from the bar out to the cage.  I may also do it inside the car if I choose to weld the cage into the car.
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

vonkysmeed

Quote from: oldeguy on March 24, 2011, 08:23:23 AM
Looks good! just like the sketch.

how did you cut the floor pan?

Just one question...the tube end the has the cap, will this tie into the roll bar hoop in the interior side?

I cut the floor pan with an angle grinder.  I was very careful at the start to only cut through the top piece of sheet metal to be sure that I did not cut a second piece below if there was one there.  You can feel the difference once you get going. 

I will most likely tie in the roll bar hoop on the inside of the car, but I may use 1/8 inch stock to connect the bolt plate on the bottom side as the tube is flush with the floor.  That is one of my design challenges since I did not carry the tube past the floor like others have done. 
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

oldeguy

Looks good! just like the sketch.

how did you cut the floor pan?

Just one question...the tube end the has the cap, will this tie into the roll bar hoop in the interior side?
at some point...2.3L EFI T3/4stageIII FMIC 55#inj eecla3 90mm MAF 65mm T/B 5 spd 8.8 w/ 3:73  11" rotors, GM Metric, explorer rear disc 205 55 14 fronts 225 50 15 rears subframe connectors w/ a 6 point roll bar

vonkysmeed

More Pictures



Next up, welding the member on the underside of the car to the frame rails.



Closing up the end of the tube.  May be a mistake on my part to not continue this through and take it further back, but I used the body to close up the end of the tube.  My roll bar sits on top of the start of the spring mount and will figure out something else to finish it off.  I will post pictures of what I do. 



The only bad section on the car.  Worst part will be removed to put the connector in.  Some patching may be required.  We will see. 



The frame rail was pretty dented up from improper jacking and what ever else can cause it.  I used the jack and wood to hold the legs of the main support so that I could adjust the rail back down.  The rail was being held high due to the dents.



Got most of the dents out, but it seemed that the rail may have been pushed too far up when I patched it back in (or something moved)  My solution was to cut the bottom of the rail out to allow the connector to sit lower.  I will weld it back to the other pieces and get it back together. 



As far as I go today when I ran out of Gas and wire at the same time. 
73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage

tinkerman73

Very cool! This is very informational for me! I will be watching the progression!
Jody Michielsen

vonkysmeed

I have finally started installing my subframe connectors.  I choose to install them inside the original frame rails to maintain clearances.  That said, I now understand why most will use a channel on the bottom of the car.  I used 1-1/2 x 2-1/2 x 1/8" (11 ga) rectangular tubing.  I have jacked the car up and using jack stands on the suspension, am supporting the car.  I also have a 6 point cage and will not do anything with it until the subframe is done so that the car remains rigid while I do this.  Here are some pictures as I go.



here is the passenger side foot well and the reason I am installing the connectors.  I will be cleaning up the metal and installing the connectors.  You can see that the subframe has already been patched back to the body once due to the forces of a v8.



layout of the drivers side.  You can see the shape of the floor is close to the center line of the frame and used that to cut the front as a guide.  It was a little off, but worked out good. 



Using my lines, I cut a small access hole to see where I was in reference to the structure under the floor and make sure I was able to fit the tube inside. 



Test fitting the tube.  It will fit under the section of floor in front of the cut. This also allowed me to use the steel to trace my cut further back.  This allowed me to cut the body based on the steel and not layout. 



Here you can see the frame through the body.  I tried to keep the member that crossed at the end of the frame, but found it kept the connector up too high.  I will end up welding it back to the tube on the bottom side once I am done on top and am welding the seams together.  (yes, I am doing that too.  May be overkill, but that kinda describes the car to date)



spot welding the subframe in place so that I can go back and stitch it in completely.



more of the spot welding.

I will post more pictures as I get further.  I have this side almost complete up top, but will need to do the bottom before too long so that I can get it coated.  I do have more pictures at http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=282289&id=348192476964 if you are on Facebook.

73 Pinto Runabout
351w from 74 galaxie
Heads from 69 Mercury Cougar
82 Mustang GT SROD Transmission and driveshaft
Mustang II rear end with Fairmont 3rd member
6 point cage