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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

price check on pinto

Started by poomwah, February 03, 2011, 01:11:03 PM

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phils toys

for color choices  here is a site it will take some navagation  but will give you some ideas
http://www.tcpglobal.com/autocolorlibrary/
once it is your car you can do what you want with it. mine has the original tint and it does not seem like much the pop out windows do help with the breeze  and my ac does not work so we just drive with the windows down. white  would not have been  my first choice eather but not i realy like it.   i have a 76 white  bobcat  woody wagon.
phil
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

blupinto

I know on the earler Pintos the factory tint doesn't look tinted at all unless you see it at certain angles. If that Squire has factory a/c, chances are it has the so-called factory tinted windows. The Carlite stamp would say Sun-X if it is factory tinted.

Grabber Blue on a Squire is something else for sure... but then I'm partial to that color. (Did I mention I was weird?) lol I drool over Medium Yellow Gold, though... and the Ginger interior would go nicely with that yellow.   ;D
One can never have too many Pintos!

poomwah

Quote from: blupinto on February 05, 2011, 01:02:17 AM
That Squire is an exceptional one... of course my personal favorite would be Grabber Blue or Medium Yellow Gold (a light orangish-yellow).  ;D   White isn't my favorite color, but my mind can change when it comes to Pintos, Mavericks, and Mustang IIs. lol

I personally don't like dark tinted windows on ANYTHING, especially Pintos... but I wouldn't hate ya if you did... ;)
Grabber blue is nice, but I don't think I'd like it with the woodgrain.  Medium Yellow Gold would be sweet. My first choice would be green but then I'd want a green interior too instead of the brown.  Not to mention if I had a green wagon, it would look like I was copying Pintony's "frozen woody"
As far as tint, I'm not thinking dark like aftermarket looking dark , but a dark factory tint look, if that makes sense.    something thats going to be hard to get right I'm sure

poomwah

well, I'm definitely in a better position now....
they say knowledge is power.
  the guy seemed like a really decent guy... but, I found out that the car has a weak cylinder, he never told me about that, I found out from someone else.  he also told me that he was asking 1400 just to get his money out of it.  I also found out that he paid 900 dollars including delivery, and hasn't done anything to it.  So I got suspicious.  Started re-reading emails, asking more questions, etc.  He said he was driving it, and just pulled the insurance off of it.  But, its still has the plate on the front of it from two owners ago. He also went on to tell me in a different email that he never put the title in his name,  its still in the name of the PO two owners back.  And an earlier email he had told me it needed a battery, that he had changed it, and that it was dependable again.  But later email says he's done nothing to the car, and that he hasn't even installed the battery yet.   So, a few discrepancies.   But the nice part is, after talking to a VERY knowledgeable source,  I know what the car is worth, and what to offer. 

blupinto

That Squire is an exceptional one... of course my personal favorite would be Grabber Blue or Medium Yellow Gold (a light orangish-yellow).  ;D   White isn't my favorite color, but my mind can change when it comes to Pintos, Mavericks, and Mustang IIs. lol

I personally don't like dark tinted windows on ANYTHING, especially Pintos... but I wouldn't hate ya if you did... ;)
One can never have too many Pintos!

poomwah


poomwah

too bad shipping costs so much.
even though I'm not a HUGE fan of the actual crusing wagon.  I don't really like the porthole.  I prefer the panel wagon or sedan delivery look.  And I prefer the front end on the older ones too.
so... the 72 squire... I'm sure the kids would prefer having windows to look out of instead of riding in the back of a box, LOL, not to mention the pop-out window providing a little ventilation.
would it be considered "bad" or "wrong" to tint the windows on a restoration? or is it one of those things thats "supposed" to be left as it would come from the factory?  Also, what is the etiquette or protocol on restoring with a different factory color.  If that is "acceptable" , where can I find a list of colors that were offered in 72 for the squire?

blupinto

Too bad you're not in SoCal... there's a '78 (I think) cruising wagon near me that runs for $1500. It's a silver one.
One can never have too many Pintos!

poomwah

the cruiser is set at a tentative 2500, the current owner said he won't raise that unless he runs into big expenses getting it running.
he thinks the interior is complete.  He can't vouch for whether or not it will be drivable. I'm waiting to here from him whether or not his mechanic got it running.  Last I heard, the mechanic had it for a weekend and still had no luck, in my opinion, not a good sign, not trying to brag, but I'm not a professional mechanic and in an afternoon I could either have a pinto running or know exactly why it wasn't. After it comes home from the mechanic, it has to go to another shop for some welding.

71pintoracer

So what kind of money for the cruiser? IMHO, if I were looking for a car to mod like you want to do, I would prob go for the cruiser, the squire should be restored and kept stock.  :)
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Cookieboystoys

it wasn't that long ago that Pintony sold it and I do know that when Pintony and I worked our deal Pintony did say it ran and drove up on the trailer. I didn't see it for about the 1st year Pintony had it and when I did it was just a quick walk around and look, I never heard it run. I know the person I bought it from made it sound like it had been sitting in his garage for years but wasn't driven regularly.

so to answer the question, Pintony sold it not that long ago but never drove the car himself "much" just enough to move it around, before that it wasn't driven much either. New seller... who knows, if he's been driving it, fixing stuff, one never knows. Pintony said it ran ok, likely didn't take much to get it into driving condition. The MN plates were still on it when Pintony sold but noticed in the ad you provided a link to the rear plate is missing and I can't tell if it's still the MN plate on the front. Also who knows "when" he took the pictures vs. what it looks like now?

for anyone looking to buy one of these cars (pinto's) in this kind of condition, I recommend a first had look and test drive and base the decision off that. I have driven 100's of miles, many times to look at and buy cars only to get there and walk away grumbling that the seller didn't provide an accurate description or that "his" idea of no rust and "my" idea of no rust means something different. When you are the one standing there with cash in hand, deciding to buy or not to buy.... your opinion is the only one that counts  ;D
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

poomwah

how long ago did he sell it?   I'm wondering how long it sat afterwards.  Like I said, I can't figure out how he's driving it if it still has the MN plate

Cookieboystoys

OK, confusion now solved! Pintony did sell the Pinto to the person you are dealing with.

Hahahaha! guess I wasn't paying attention if Pintony told me but he's not sure he told me either  ;D
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

poomwah

interesting, I hadn't noticed the minnesota plate before.
  here is the ad http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/cto/2155437474.html
did he sell it to someone in indiana and they took pics before they left his place? but if its being driven in indiana, why does it still have the MN plate :\

Cookieboystoys

Quote from: poomwah on February 04, 2011, 12:07:42 PM
I think we are talking about different people. The owner's name is Tony. But Pintony is apparently from staughton, ILL (over by ST Louis) this car's owner lives south of indianapolis, IN

something here does seem rather strange and I have been trying to reach Pintony all day with no sucess...

I talk to Pintony, in Staunton, IL regularly, couple times yesterday and I haven't heard anything about a broken ankle, he also tells me he hasn't talked to anyone about this 72 in recent recollection. There is no question that the pictures posted at the beginning of this post are of the 72 wagon I refered to above, purchased and that Pintony has now, the licence plate matches the pictures I have of it.

so that begs the question... who are you talking to? and why is he sending you pictures of a car than belongs to someone else?

like I said I'm trying to reach Pintony to clear this up but I think something isn't quite right here ?? I don't think Pintony sold the wagon and still has it sitting at his place.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

poomwah

Quote from: blupinto on February 04, 2011, 12:19:43 PM
I'm going to agree with Brian on the car being restored as opposed to being modified. '72 wagons were the only ones that had the three-button pop-out windows. To me that's huge!  As I mentioned earlier, I'm a tad partial to Squires. Just my humble opinion, but I'd hate to see that car stripped of its Squire heritage and changed into a go-fast car. I still wish you the best with whatever you do. :D

I completely understand,  in my ignorance, I didnt realize how "special"   the car was.  I would feel guilty as hell about modifying the buhjeezus   out of it.  But, at the same time, I couldn't handle it being white.

blupinto

I'm going to agree with Brian on the car being restored as opposed to being modified. '72 wagons were the only ones that had the three-button pop-out windows. To me that's huge!  As I mentioned earlier, I'm a tad partial to Squires. Just my humble opinion, but I'd hate to see that car stripped of its Squire heritage and changed into a go-fast car. I still wish you the best with whatever you do. :D
One can never have too many Pintos!

poomwah

I think we are talking about different people.
The owner's name is Tony.  But Pintony is apparently from staughton, ILL (over by ST Louis)
this car's owner lives south of indianapolis, IN

phils toys

Quote from: poomwah on February 04, 2011, 10:00:47 AM
You should send him a get well E-card or something.  When we got that storm the other day, he fell and broke his ankle, had to have surgery on it.
wish him well for me my mom did that last winter
and i trust cookieboys  judgment on the car and would agree with all he said.
phil
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

poomwah

I wouldn't feel right offering him less. I mean, just from emailing I can tell what kind of person he is, and he is WAY too nice to offer him less.  I know the ad says or best offer, but he's been so accomodating to me.  Like I said, super nice guy. 
  By the way cookieboy, have you talked to Tony lately?  You should send him a get well E-card or something.  When we got that storm the other day, he fell and broke his ankle, had to have surgery on it.

Cookieboystoys

1972 was the first year of the wagon and this one being what it is, a squire with a lot of options would make a great resto for thoes looking for an early wagon that would be the envy of all your pinto friends when restored to original condition. These are hard to find (early wagons with options) in any condition.

Poomwah, if you are looking to add a turbo and modify one like you suggest, I'm sure many will agree looking for a 1974 and up is what you should be looking for. Better options for suspension and larger engine bays for the turbo.

All that said, I have seen this car in person and have to admit it looks worse in these pics than I recall. I didn't go over it with a fine tooth comb or anything but did give it a good look, never heard it run. The interior is near mint! and like Tigger pointed out that is worth a bunch! There is rust, a lot of it is surface with a few bad spots requiring some work for sure. Not sure how reliable it would be running wise for a long drive home, I wouldn't consider it a daily driver, been sitting a lot for the last few years but it does run.

The reason I know this car is because I bought it, sight unseen after seeing it on Craigslist. Pintony came to MN to get the car and trailered it back home. There was a reason we did this but after seeing the wagon Tony decided it was way to nice to do what was planned. After I saw it a couple years back I had to agree. The interior is really nice, it's a first year squire with options and the body is saveable. Yes, it will need work but... it is what it is.

If I didn't have to many projects on my plate already... I would go get it and consider a restore myself and considering I don't ever want to restore a rusty car myself again (been there, done that) since I can't do body work myself driving the cost to restore up... this one I would consider only because it is what it is and I do believe with careful planning you could restore it to original condition and still have close to it's resale value or less if you were careful not to overspend. Knowing how to do body work and turn a wrech, doing most of the work yourself would help save lots of cash.

The above was not a sales pitch for the wagon, just my humble opinion and what I know of the wagon.

I do know what Tony has into the wagon and while he doen't have a lot of wiggle room to move on the price and get his money back make an offer, never know he may consider it. Don't bother with low-balling him, others have and he still has it.

Tony's email is pintony_2000@yahoo.com in case anybody else may be interested in it.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

poomwah

is it a squire? I thought the squires were only automatic and came out in 73 :/
I'm not worried about the ac, whatever I get will probably end up with a turbo coupe swap next spring (2012).  I also should point out that I will be modifying whatever I get as well.  Just so noone thinks I'm going for a restoration or anything.  I would be removing the woodgrain, and the trim, grinding the "pegs" for the trim down and welding in the holes.  Then I would be welding in the windows and turning it into a sedan delivery.  Since I plan so many modifications, I don't know if that makes this a better or worse starting point
who did you use for shipping?   I'm getting 750 dollar quotes from kentucky to nw ohio.  I even got a quote for over 1000 from upstate michigan to nw ohio, and that was the cheapest quote I could get for that particular one.

Norman Bagi

First let's talk shipping, i got a California car sent to the East coast last year for $750. so if the car is in far better shape, then shipping is worth alot more than trying to find those impossible to find parts and then have to fix them.  Having said that, it is hard to see exactly how many repairs are necessary.  If the AC doesn't work then do not even discuss this as an option when talking price, it will most likely end up costing more to fix the AC then the car is worth. Engine and drivetrain, if these need rebuilding, same result as the AC, if not, then it is worth looking into further.  If the car runs, has a clean title and you can get it for under $1000 I would persue it further, but go over the car carefully and thoroughly, that will help you in the negotiating if you know what it needs and how much it would cost to fix. I agree with Tigger, the interior looks clean which is a huge part of a restoration.  Probably the most positive aspect of this wagon. Check the suspension, floorpans, and undercarriage.  Turn those stones over and see what is under them.

blupinto

If it were me I'd go for the '72 Squire!!!

I'm partial to '72s because that's my birth year... I'm also partial to Squires because they're so... American...THEN I saw that interior!!! OMG!!! The cracks on the dashboard aren't bad at all. You should see Green Meanies... and she's a year younger!!! I love the early deluxe interiors and I think this would be a gem with some TLC. It isn't my money, but if you want it I say GO FOR IT!!! The seller might lower the price... and it never hurts to say, "I have $1,000 cash in hand". Don't be too interested... tell the seller there's a couple other cars you're looking at.  Whatever you decide, I wish you the best! Too bad I'm not out there... I would love to have a '72 Squire. Well I would need the money too... ::)
One can never have too many Pintos!

poomwah

thanks guys.  I'm not looking at it as an investment.  more along the lines of is it a fair price compared to other pintos. I guess I will keep waiting, but there very rarely are any around here, and with the cost of shipping, its hard to imagine getting anything other than a rust bucket on my budget, I mean, with shipping of 1000 dollars or more, that leaves me looking for a 1000 dollar pinto :[
   I liked it better when people didnt like pintos, LOL

beicholz

Unless you want this as a parts car, why don't you wait for a better specimen with no rust?   There are plenty on EBAY and the Internet, and with shipping available to almost anywhere.

Even if you got this car for free, the repair costs would be prohibitive.   To put this in context, I got a 1976 Runabout with only 40K miles for $2,100 here in CA.  A thousand dollars or so later, and it runs and looks like new.   The true value of the car like the one here is that you could get real satisfaction out of brininging it back from the dead...if you have the skills, money, and patience.     If that's what you want, go for it.   But to ask what the value is makes me wonder if you think it might be a good investment.   From a financial perspective, at least, it isn't (in my humble opinion).   This car will cost a fortune to restore.   Do it only if it gives you pleasure.
1973 Pinto Squire, 59K Miles, 2.0, Auto P/B, A/C
1972 VW Karmann Ghia Convert. (Red/Black), 2K Miles on restoration, One Owner
1972 Chevy Vega (virtual owner - in the junkyard)
2011 Subaru Outback 4WD
1 Yam. Golf Cart: Our "car" on Catalina Island

poomwah

I forgot, ac doesn't work but its all there. 
the guy couldn't get me pics of the underside but went out and laid on the ground and looked for me, he said " it was very nice under there. It's still mostly body color (white) and there were a couple of spots. Both on the drivers' side. One was very small and only a little crusty. I couldn't tell if it was a through hole yet.
The other is the lip around a what was either a seat belt reinforcement or a body plug, the place in the floor where you remove the plug to let water drain from the interior. It wasn't bad, just a little crusty around there, too. All in all, very nice. I didn't look behind the rear axle."
He says its roadworthy and drivable.  I just went back through the emails and all I can find was the exhaust leak, the ac not working, the body , cracked dash pad, and an aftermarket tach on the steering column.  The only thing different since the pics were taken is that he cleaned the battery terminals.  its a 2.0,  it has 62,000 miles on it.  its 3 and a half hours away, he's asking 1395 or best offer.

TIGGER

The first question that comes to mind is how are the floors, frame rails, and cowl on that 72?  The interior is pretty nice on that car, which is a big bonus as half the battle is piecing together a clean interior.  While the body does have some rust, it is repairable.  The car looks to be fairly loaded, 2.0L, 4 spd, deluxe interior, AC, squire wagon.  At this point, price will really depend on how well it runs and drives, in my opinion.  How much are they asking?
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

poomwah


poomwah