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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Has The World Gone Mad?

Started by FlyerPinto, April 16, 2010, 09:28:08 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

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dga57

Quote from: FlyerPinto on April 19, 2010, 02:27:13 PM
Well I'm working on getting some help enlisted so I can do this thing in my own garage. I have a friend with a lot of experience and we spoke today at lunch. I might actually get this to work.


Here's wishing you the VERY best of luck!  Don't forget to photo-document the project for Pinto Times!  It will make an interesting and helpful article!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

FlyerPinto

Well I'm working on getting some help enlisted so I can do this thing in my own garage. I have a friend with a lot of experience and we spoke today at lunch. I might actually get this to work.
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...

dga57

Quote from: FlyerPinto on April 19, 2010, 09:03:53 AM
The body itself is pretty solid, the floor pans seems good and all that. Other than adjusting the doors everything seems solid. The problem is the original tri-color stripes which ran over the hood, down the fenders, over the doors, up the rear quarters and Cruising Wagon panels were apparently taken off with a grinding wheel, leaving uneven surfaces up and down the length of the car.

The only way to repair/resurface that, Matt, is to break out the body filler.  The lightest skim coat you can get by with will yield the best result... then sand off the excess until it's perfectly smooth.  This is time consuming and frustrating, but it can and must be done to achieve a good finished product.  If you attempt it yourself, I would recommend you invest in a good DA sander if you don't already have one.
Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

FlyerPinto

The body itself is pretty solid, the floor pans seems good and all that. Other than adjusting the doors everything seems solid. The problem is the original tri-color stripes which ran over the hood, down the fenders, over the doors, up the rear quarters and Cruising Wagon panels were apparently taken off with a grinding wheel, leaving uneven surfaces up and down the length of the car.
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...

78_starsky

"My advice is to think it through honestly, objectively, and thoroughly before you DO anything!

Dwayne"

well said...

Yes we have to agree that sometimes bare metal is the only way to go if you are backed into that situation.

blupinto,  That would be a for sure situation, those cracks would cause pure hell to feather out and one would never know if they had gotten all of them.

dga57

Ya... Svedish!!!

Dwayne :embarassed:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

blupinto

Quote from: dga57 on April 17, 2010, 11:21:20 PM
Right!  I was able to scuff, prime, and paint my F-150 pickup and my Mark V with no worries.  The paint on my Collector's Series Continental was a different story.  The fellow who owned it just prior to me, kept in a covered, but not enclosed parking garage in Myrtle Beach, SC.  That in itself wouldn't have been a problem except that he decided to purchase a car cover for it.  The salt in that ocean-front atmosphere got under that cover and wreaked absolutel havoc on the paint job.  Might not have happened if the car had been in daily use but it sat covered for 4 - 6 months at a time as the owner actually lived in Dallas, TX and owned a condo in Myrtle Beach that he visited 2- 3 times per year.  The integrity of the original finish was so in question that taking it to bare metal was the only thing which made absolute sense.  That's why I turned it over to the professionals instead of tackling it myself.  It was kept inside at all times, and was done much more quickly than I could have managed working on it alone in my spare time.  Every individual situation is different.  Is "bare metal" always necessary?  No!  But sometimes it IS necessary.  My advice is to think it through honestly, objectively, and thoroughly before you DO anything!

Dwayne :smile:


Absolutel...is that Swedish? :lol:
One can never have too many Pintos!

dga57

Right!  I was able to scuff, prime, and paint my F-150 pickup and my Mark V with no worries.  The paint on my Collector's Series Continental was a different story.  The fellow who owned it just prior to me, kept in a covered, but not enclosed parking garage in Myrtle Beach, SC.  That in itself wouldn't have been a problem except that he decided to purchase a car cover for it.  The salt in that ocean-front atmosphere got under that cover and wreaked absolutel havoc on the paint job.  Might not have happened if the car had been in daily use but it sat covered for 4 - 6 months at a time as the owner actually lived in Dallas, TX and owned a condo in Myrtle Beach that he visited 2- 3 times per year.  The integrity of the original finish was so in question that taking it to bare metal was the only thing which made absolute sense.  That's why I turned it over to the professionals instead of tackling it myself.  It was kept inside at all times, and was done much more quickly than I could have managed working on it alone in my spare time.  Every individual situation is different.  Is "bare metal" always necessary?  No!  But sometimes it IS necessary.  My advice is to think it through honestly, objectively, and thoroughly before you DO anything!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

blupinto

Quote from: 78_starsky on April 17, 2010, 10:54:14 AM
Hi,  My girlfriend has painted cars/motorcycles on and off for the past 25 years. over the last couple years her and I have painted 5 cars. and I am slowly learning things as she is a good teacher.

If you go it alone, here is something to think about.  I would not recommend taking any vehicle down to bare metal.  what you actually do is make 5 times more work than is needed.  what happens is you open up the metal to surface rust if you leave the metal exposed tooo long.  you will destroy the factory aged primed metal. and you will expose all body flaws that will need to be re-skim coated and flattened/sanded smooth.  If you have not done body work before you could be asking for more work than is needed.  Many people have this belief that they have to strip a vehicle to bare metal.  this is sooo far from the real reasons to take to metal... the only reason you might need to get to metal is if you have a rust spot, body dings.  and only in that area to metal.  then you prime over the metal and feather in the body's paint to the bondo/primer.

you want to sand out the polish of the body scuff the old paint and let this be your starting base for the old paint and primer is holding good the natural age.  the paint job is the final top... all the body work is the meat and potatoes of the job.  painting bad areas will not make it look good... it will make a bad body look worse... it is all in PREP and SANDING....   not in bare metal then primeing...

if you have any questions feel free to ask.


It was recommended that my '74 Runabout be taken down to bare metal because the paint is crackled on the up-facing surfaces (hood, cowl, roof). In a sense, the metal is indeed already exposed... so I can see the reasoning behind that suggestion.
One can never have too many Pintos!

flash041

Flyer, how is the body in general? Every panel on mine needed some kind of attenion which is why I decided to strip it all to bare metal.For the most part the factory paint was stuck on well , but dull.I just had too many issues , so i decided to strip it.If there was no or minimal rust i would not of done that.It  was a LOT of work , but I am confindent it will trun out great.Like starsky said prep and sanding!
1978 Pinto Cruising wagon (I am the original owner ! ) Built Aug 15th 1977 in NJ
1993 Mustang LX 2.3 convertible

dga57

Quote from: FlyerPinto on April 17, 2010, 10:31:08 AM
Ok, now I'm starting to feel the seeds of confidence (always dangerous) but I guess if I really hose it up I could always pay someone else to do it anyway, and if it goes reasonably well, I could save thousands of $, which is never bad.

Now you're getting into the spirit!!!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

78_starsky

Hi,  My girlfriend has painted cars/motorcycles on and off for the past 25 years. over the last couple years her and I have painted 5 cars. and I am slowly learning things as she is a good teacher.

If you go it alone, here is something to think about.  I would not recommend taking any vehicle down to bare metal.  what you actually do is make 5 times more work than is needed.  what happens is you open up the metal to surface rust if you leave the metal exposed tooo long.  you will destroy the factory aged primed metal. and you will expose all body flaws that will need to be re-skim coated and flattened/sanded smooth.  If you have not done body work before you could be asking for more work than is needed.  Many people have this belief that they have to strip a vehicle to bare metal.  this is sooo far from the real reasons to take to metal... the only reason you might need to get to metal is if you have a rust spot, body dings.  and only in that area to metal.  then you prime over the metal and feather in the body's paint to the bondo/primer.

you want to sand out the polish of the body scuff the old paint and let this be your starting base for the old paint and primer is holding good the natural age.  the paint job is the final top... all the body work is the meat and potatoes of the job.  painting bad areas will not make it look good... it will make a bad body look worse... it is all in PREP and SANDING....   not in bare metal then primeing...

if you have any questions feel free to ask.

FlyerPinto

Ok, now I'm starting to feel the seeds of confidence (always dangerous) but I guess if I really hose it up I could always pay someone else to do it anyway, and if it goes reasonably well, I could save thousands of $, which is never bad.
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...

dga57

You know, Matt... everyone who has ever painted cars had to paint a first one.   You never know until you try.  If you have any extra body panels laying around anywhere, they are excellent to practice on!  My best friend has been painting cars for close to fifty years and he was standing right beside me every step of the way the first time I took a paint gun in hand.  I probably wouldn't have had the guts to try it otherwise.  There is a knack to it... it's mostly in the wrist.  Other than that, the advice you've gotten here is all good.  Don't skimp on materials and take it one step at a time.  I painted my own truck and my Mark V. Both were in light colors which tend to also be more forgiving.  When I decided the other Lincoln needed doing (it's Midnight Blue Metallic with a clearcoat), I decided to leave that one to the professionals and I've never regretted that decision.  When I get around to putting the paint on my Pinto, I will most likely do that one myself. 

Dwayne :smile:

Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

Bigtimmay

If i can do it anyone can just dont jump in head first and get in over your head.

Do everything right the first time and don't half arse stuff.When people start buying the materials for making their cars look good is when you find out who the true car people are.

The not so true car people usually start seeing the prices of paint,primer,bondo,fiberglass and all the other odds and ends like sandpaper and what not add up and are like this is too expensive and try to buy the cheapest junk they make or cut corners all together. Then they wonder why their car ended up being a 50footer when its all said and done.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

FlyerPinto

I appreciate the comments and the suggestions, cause truth to be told I was pretty unhappy when I left his place. I did go to the local Ford dealer (I've come to have a pretty good relationship with them over the years, and I just bought a car there for my stepson) and they want to take a look at it. He said if I did like Dwayne mentioned, and removed everything that could come off the car, they could give me a pretty decent estimate. I'm not in a rush for the car, so maybe it could work out. A scary thought has been creeping into my mind though, and this is where I always get into trouble...if I take everything apart, why couldn't I strip it down myself and primer it (Just like you said Flash) in my garage? Heck, maybe I could paint it. Baby steps...baby steps...
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...

blupinto

Like my War And Peace letters? lol. No really, Dwayne, that paint shop was ubercool!
One can never have too many Pintos!

dga57

Quote from: blupinto on April 16, 2010, 02:21:46 PM
Dwayne, what a great story!

It began feeling like a book when I was writing it, but I felt Matt might need a little something to believe in after his encounter with the restoration guy!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

blupinto

One can never have too many Pintos!

dga57

Matt,

Look at it this way... you have a new experience to write about for Pinto Times! :lol:

Seriously, there are MANY shops around who paint cars without doing major restoration!  It's been about 5 years since I had my '79 Collector's Series Lincoln Continental done, and it cost me just about $4000.  Now here's the deal... I took it to one of the best and most respected body shops in town.  Their bread and butter, of course, is collision repair.  They told me they felt the proper way to paint this particular car was to remove everything that was removeable (bumpers, grille, trim, door handles, etc.) and take it to bare metal.  At that stage they repaired the few door dings, etc., re-aligned some of the body panels to tighter tolerances than the factory had orginally done, and smoothed out a few factory imperfections on welds to make the car actually look more perfect than it did when it was new.  Then they did a two-stage primer, followed by the color coat, and topped off with a clearcoat.  The car was, and still is, magnificent.  I know this was 5 years ago, but we're also talking about a car with approximately three times the body surface of a Pinto; hence more product as well as more labor.  They told me that if I wanted it done quickly (meaning they would schedule it right in with the collision work) I'd probably be looking at $12000 or more.  On the other hand, if I was willing to let the car stay there so they could work on it during what would otherwise be downtime, they would reduce the labor rate significantly.  After all, these are the types of jobs most body men prefer doing and seldom get the chance to do.  It took seven weeks from start to finish and became a team project.  The shop manager told me that his crew actually worked more efficiently than ever on the regular jobs just
so they could spend time on the Lincoln!  As an added surprise when I picked the car up, the guys who had worked on it had dug up a bunch of old eight-track tapes and assembled a gift basket for me.  They even all signed a card thanking me for allowing them to work on my car!

If you don't have any firsthand experience with a good body shop in your area, ask your insurance agent to recommend one.  I truly believe you can get your Cruising Wagon done within a budget you're comfortable with. 

One other final thought: a lot of body shop employees do side work in their home shops, so that might be an option also.

Good luck and let us know how it all works out!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

flash041

I got a price of $2500 to paint my Cruising wagon after I strip it and do all the body work,which I am almost done with ! Thats is from a restore/body shop.It seems like a fair price , but I am going to try painting it my self.I did all the work so far and want to continue.I plan to shoot the primer , and if that goes well Ill do the color.If not Ill let him finish it.I know the body guy well and he will work with me.
1978 Pinto Cruising wagon (I am the original owner ! ) Built Aug 15th 1977 in NJ
1993 Mustang LX 2.3 convertible

Bigtimmay

thats your problem right there you never go to a restoration shop if all you want is some body work and a paint job cause when they hear i got a car they think they are subjected to yank it fully apart and do a full ground up resto no matter what most Restorers are money hungry dirtbags yah they can do good work but theres still normal people that dont wanna spend 100k on a car. your talking 50+ just for the work he does thats not adding in what hes gunna say you needa buy to repair the car to his standards.

If i was you id just find a regular old body shop that does newer cars. 3 grand should be a reasonable price range to shoot for if all you want is some body work and paint.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

popbumper

Not surprised - he runs a high end shop, and wanted to do high end work, Pinto or not. Now of course, "high end" is subjective, but he's looking for cash, so it does not matter. He's not going to recommend anyone else because he wants the business, especially the "whole" business.

In this case I just think it was the wrong guy (he does more than paint), or he does NOT want to do the work, and quoted you a stupidly exorbitant price to dissuade you. Either way, there are other folks out there who can help.

And, to answer your first question, yes, in general, the world HAS gone mad.

Chris

Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

blupinto

Matt, you're not smoking crack but maybe HE is...lol.

That guy might do award-winning restoration but at his prices I could pay a chunk of my mortgage instead of handing it to him and not seeing my Pinto for months. Out here there are several paint and body shops. I know there are "Earl Sheib $29.99 jobs" and good or real good paint jobs. You get what you pay for, but $66,560!? Maybe the paint fumes fried his brain. Anyway, shop around and get quotes. Remember, there are differences between painting over the existing paint and down-to-bare-metal jobs. At Carcoa paint, body, and collision I was quoted about $6,000 to do Wildfire, but she has to have her old paint sanded to bare metal because of crackling. Dwayne (dga57) seems to be a dab hand at painting and body work, but he's in Virginia. Anyway, Matt, I wish you luck in your search. ;D
One can never have too many Pintos!

FlyerPinto

I went to a body shop here locally to find out about getting my Cruising Wagon repainted. It's a little rough where someone had ground off the original three-stripe decals and painted the car a kind of burgundy/maroon color. I figure I'm looking at a couple or three thousand dollars, which is really more than I want to pay, but I can't paint a car so I'm starting to ask around. This guy starts talking about restoration being all he does and how he will disassemble the car, refurbish everything, and put it together like new. Two guys, $65 per hour, eight hours per day, four days per week. It works out to $1,040 per day, $4,160 per week. And he said it would take about sixteen (!) weeks to finish the car because they only work on one car at a time. Total boat---$66,560.

I replied, "It's a Pinto. It's worth three grand. A Bobcat/Pinto just sold at auction for about $13,000 at Meachums, but you're still looking at upside down figures of fifty grand."

He was adamant. "It will be worth a lot more after that kind of work though, maybe thirty or forty thousand."

I said, "It better be nice because I'll be living in the thing if my wife finds out I spent sixty-five grand on a paint job when she wants a pool"

His response? "Well, it's a lot more than a paint job."

My response, "Not to her."

We talked about D & D Restorations in Covington, who do Packards and Mercedes gull-wings and Cobras and Pebble Beach type cars, and they win all the time. He thought he was as capable, and maybe he was. But it's still a Pinto!

He couldn't even think of anyone who could paint a car any more. I was itching to get out of that building in a hurry, so I managed extricate myself after about thirty minutes.

He believes the only person who can paint a car for less is someone who does the body work at home in a garage, and their price will be reflected in the quality of their work.

Now, I know there is crack in the world. I'm just not smoking any of it, thought he seems to think I might be. What is fair for an all over paint job with doing some minor ding work?

I realize this guy runs a restoration shop. He didn't tell me that up front or I never would have gone there in the first place. But holy cow! I don't know how to paint a car, and I don't have the tools to do it either. So am I going to have to learn yet another new skill or just get a fourth #$%*#@ job?
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...