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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Local Pinto Get together

Started by jimspinto, March 25, 2010, 09:14:12 AM

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jimspinto

Quote from: russosborne on April 23, 2010, 06:54:08 PM
Well, I should be there. I haven't had to work a Saturday since I started here, but you never know. It is hard to turn down overtime if it comes up. Money is good. :-)
I am hoping that I won't be driving the Pinto though. I really hope that by then it will be in my garage getting lots of stuff done to it.

Russ

  Well I hope for the "lot of stuff" to, but it'd nice to see the piinto there....  Jim

russosborne

Well, I should be there. I haven't had to work a Saturday since I started here, but you never know. It is hard to turn down overtime if it comes up. Money is good. :-)
I am hoping that I won't be driving the Pinto though. I really hope that by then it will be in my garage getting lots of stuff done to it.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

jimspinto

  Ok, here we go.
  Just about everything in one post !  I hope, but it's gona be long !

  Russ--- For Gods Sake, take a day off !  You'll have fun.  See below !

  Phil ---  Got Ya ! Thanks.
  Nice additude, Ohio it will be !

  Dick ---  It might have been brain freeze, except I'd question me and the BRAIN THING. I don't know, see you there and we can "Discust it"

  To Everyone
  I set the dates, locked them in as
  August 14th, 2010  Back-up of  August 28th, 2010

  Starting time........get there whenever you can.  I will be there at 10 am.  We could have our little gathering and hello's maybe eat some of his "old time greasy food"
  Enjoy the day, then hit a local cruise or two.
  Any input would be GREAT !

  Please post any questions to this sight, or  just call me if I could be of any help !   440 591 8381

  DIRRECTIONS
  The place was called "Dairy King"
  Not Queen, King.
  He's changed the name to "Two Coneheads"  As in Ice Cream Cones.
  I'd think eather would work as a name, the address is..
  12399 Kinsman Road, Newbury
Ohio 44065  his number is 440 564 5613.
  Now some of you have been here before, but I'll refresh your memory....
  Kinsman Road is Ohio Rt.87
  Rt, 87 is 8 or 10 miles north of I 80
on Rt 44.  Turn left, go 150 feet your there.

Again,  Ohio Rt. 44 connects with all major highways, so there are exits on both Ohio Rt, 2 and I 90.

  For both of them you go south on Ohio Rt 44, Give or take about 20 miles to Ohio 87, turn right for about 150 feet, bingo your there !

   You couldn't get lost if you tried, but call me for anything.
   
   Thanks,  Jim O'Reilly  AKA  jimspinto 440 591 8381

  There's no spell check, I've done the best I can...........

   

postalpony

Hey Jim---Did you have brain fade or what????
In your last post you said, "As for you though, should you find
a reason not to-------------------not to what??
Maybe those 'happy' pills kicked in, & you took a nap! Don't leave me hanging, let me know what not to do.

Now I don't care who ya' are--that there is funny! 

                         Wishing you all the best   Dick
1980 Hatchback was a "Postal Unit" on the
west coast in it's early life. Now residing
in Ohio, But we don't haul the U.S. Mail anymore;
Now all we do is HAUL!
5th gear 4700 rpm & still pullin'= 113+  mph

UPDATE-83.762 mph in 4th gear As verified by a W Va State Trooper-WITH 1 GEAR TO GO 6-2-11

russosborne

Well, assuming I don't have to work either of those Saturdays, that works for me.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

phils toys

hay jim ,
having looked at your other post  , the Ohio Meet  is fine eventhough we show up from other states it is still in ohio.
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

jimspinto

Quote from: turbo74pinto on April 13, 2010, 07:14:17 PM
14th with a back up of the 28th sounds good to me

bob

****************
  Yea Dick,
   It looks like that will be the date(s)
   I'm waiting for appproval from "Pinto" guy and gals.
   As for you though, should you find a reason not to

postalpony



  Sounds good to me also/too. 

                       Dick
1980 Hatchback was a "Postal Unit" on the
west coast in it's early life. Now residing
in Ohio, But we don't haul the U.S. Mail anymore;
Now all we do is HAUL!
5th gear 4700 rpm & still pullin'= 113+  mph

UPDATE-83.762 mph in 4th gear As verified by a W Va State Trooper-WITH 1 GEAR TO GO 6-2-11

phils toys

14 with 28 is ok for me as well
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

turbo74pinto

14th with a back up of the 28th sounds good to me

bob
Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

jimspinto

Quote from: phils toys on April 12, 2010, 11:11:03 PM
how about the 7,14, or 21 with a chance of the 28
phil
*******************
  Thanks for the reply !
  Hope you got the something started, and there will be other replies (quickly)
   I'd guess you were talking about August.
     I could answer my own question by getting up and looking at the calender, what an a**  I am hee hee !

  OK, I've looked.......  those dates are in Auguist, and they look good to me.  Anyone else agree ?
  I kind of like the 14th with the 28th for a rain date !

  Awaiting your reply......
  Jim O'Reilly

phils toys

how about the 7,14, or 21 with a chance of the 28
phil
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

jimspinto

  JUST  "POPED" IN TO SAY "HELLO"
   
  THAT BEING DONE, I'LL "POP" OUT AGAIN.........

  STILL LOOKING FOR SOME INPUT ON THE GET TOGETHER.
  COME ON GUYS, WHAT DATES WOULD BE THE BEST ?
   TRY TO THINK SATURDAY, IN AUGUST.  THERE ARE ONLY FOUR, PICK ONE, AND POST IT !

  BEST TO ALL..... JIM O'REILLY HERE AT   "JIMSPINTO"

jimspinto

   Reply to Bob & Dick
   I wasn't going to post here, use up space, make this post longer.
   Then second guessed it !   You should never second guess your self  hee hee
   Your both great guys, and its a pleasure to call you friends

   In answer to Dick.....
   Yes I'm still on the mend, I feel I'm at about 75 %
   I don't know where this is going.
   Three major problems at the same time, the body just doesn't want to deal with it.  I'm sure you know what I'm saying.
   But I'm pushing for recovery, and deffenetly pushing the envelope.  I feel no pain, no gain.

   In answer to Bob......
   All of the above applys.
   Thank you so verry much for the offer. 
   At the moment I'm just trying to keep in touch, and waiting for  replys and advise from fellow members before I set a date or anything else.
   Not much work there, but I will keep your offer in mind and call you should I need.

  Thanks again, the both of you.   He**  of the Fordpinto bunch.
 
   Jim O'Reilly  AKA  jimspinto


   

postalpony

Hi Jim
It sounds like you are on the mend-- that makes me very happy!!   If nothing happens,
You know what I mean, I would be proud to attend the 3rd of your "Get-to-gethers".
I hope all goes well this year and You & I don't have any more setbacks.

Keep us posted on the date its going to happen.  See ya' this year; I hope!!

                   Yer ol' Redneck  buddy--------Dick
1980 Hatchback was a "Postal Unit" on the
west coast in it's early life. Now residing
in Ohio, But we don't haul the U.S. Mail anymore;
Now all we do is HAUL!
5th gear 4700 rpm & still pullin'= 113+  mph

UPDATE-83.762 mph in 4th gear As verified by a W Va State Trooper-WITH 1 GEAR TO GO 6-2-11

turbo74pinto

jim, if you need help with anything let me know.  ill help if i can.

bob
Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

jimspinto

Quote from: pintoman on March 27, 2010, 03:40:58 PM
Jim I will try and get up there this year.Hope to bring some friends.

  You know that ohio is up hill from Tenn.  And it is a Pinto  Hee hee hee hee
  Just couldn't pass that up....Jim

jimspinto

Quote from: turbo74pinto on March 28, 2010, 06:15:27 PM
i dont think i have any weddings this year...so no excuses from me.  i feel saturday or sunday would be ideal.  a little cruise could be fun too.  maybe if we were to do this on a saturday afternoon, then take our cars to annother location later in the evening.  maybe annabells in mentor, blvd of 500 flags in eastlake (i think theyre running it again this year).  i dunno, just throwing it out there.

jim, i have yet to get out your way.  i still havent seen my buddies judge.  although, i have your number, so when i get out there ill give you a call.

bob

  Good to hear from you.    As to getting out here, your almost as bad as me (hee hee)

  And as to a cruise, like to Annabells, I love the idea.
  lets see what everyone else wants, and hope such a thing can be done.
  Thanks  Jim O'Reilly

phils toys

july is proly the hardest for me as i have 2 local shows i go to each year. when i get definate dates  i will post.
phil
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

russosborne

as of right now I am open to any weekend date. Maybe I can get the gas line replaced before this summer. Need to get some tools and line and bend them up. The rubber hose I am using isn't the best.
Otherwise my car is a "no smoking" car. :-)
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

r4pinto

To be honest Jim,

I only care about 1 thing, and 1 thing only. That is the car actually making the drive without breaking down. The rest is trivial to me. I just want some redemption from the 2006 failure.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

turbo74pinto

i dont think i have any weddings this year...so no excuses from me.  i feel saturday or sunday would be ideal.  a little cruise could be fun too.  maybe if we were to do this on a saturday afternoon, then take our cars to annother location later in the evening.  maybe annabells in mentor, blvd of 500 flags in eastlake (i think theyre running it again this year).  i dunno, just throwing it out there.

jim, i have yet to get out your way.  i still havent seen my buddies judge.  although, i have your number, so when i get out there ill give you a call.

bob
Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

jimspinto

  Ok, Guys & Gals

  That what I wanted to hear, so as to a location........
  I don't see anything wrong with what we had last year.  If anybody thinks different, say something and I will scout up so
something else.  Otherwise there the location

   For anyone that wasn't there last year, cant remember (none of us are that young hee hee)   and / or wants to come this year. its at the intersection(s) of Ohio Rts. 87 & 44.  Newbury Ohio 44065

  As to a time & date,  Again lets leave this up to the group.

  I've talked to the fast food place owner.  He says.......
"Get back to me ASAP, as far as I'm conserned, its early enough that the summer is open.  Pick a date and let me know"

  So there you go, I'd like to see sometime late in the summer, in order to guarentee (ha ha)  good weather.

  Lets hear some suggestions, what dates do any of you have open and / or want ?

   Jim O'Reilly  at jimspinto    Phone 440 591 8381

pintoman

Jim I will try and get up there this year.Hope to bring some friends.
05 Pigon Forge Meet, 06 Carlile Meet Coordinator 06-07 Carlile Regional, Brief Case Award (ask)

russosborne

When and where? Might be able to make it.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

turbo74pinto

Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

r4pinto

I couldn't get to 1 or 2... Here's hoping the 3rd time's a charm
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

phils toys

keep me informed and i will be at "3" phil
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

jimspinto

  Hi guys & girls......
 
  First of all, I'm here, still above the ground (ha ha)
  Doing very good, but still on the mend.  Some diffaculty walking,  but I'm very happy with my recovery to this point.

  Now on to the reason for this posting.

   "The Annual Ohio Get Together"
    This would be our 3rd.

   I haven't done anything with it, but there's no problem with the location, and I'll put everything into action if there's any interest

   So please contact me at jimsfinefords@yahoo.com.  Or post a reply here.
   Also  440 591 8381

  Thanks,  Jim O'Reilly  at jimspinto