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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Help on engine that won't stay running

Started by Smalldisplacement, April 05, 2006, 09:32:33 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

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goodolboydws

Congratulations!

If you have a non vented tank (or one that has an obstructed venting system), or the wrong type of gas cap (or an obstructed one), that can happen, as the vacuum pressure builds enough to cause problems.   I had to drill a tiny hole in one years back on one that was on my wife's car.

The tip off that vacuum pressure is building up in the tank is that when the gas cap is removed immediately after the engine is run for a long time and a significant volume of gas has been pulled from the tank, you can usually hear and feel the air wooshing into the tank through the fill hole.

Smalldisplacement

Success!! After running a hose from the fuel pump to a jerrycan and narrowing the problem down to the gas tank. I removed the tank to find it in perfect condition on the inside and pressurizing the sending unit in water with no problems, I inspected the inlet screen which looked to be in good condition, no sediment accumulation, rips or deformities. I  even blew some air through it with alcohol to make sure it was clean. I changed it out with a new one anyway, since I had it out of the tank, and I guess that did it, no more fuel starvation. I guess it was collasping on itself after running a little while.

Smalldisplacement

I'm pulling the tank next to flush it out with water and check for heavy sediment. I removed the sending unit and I did not see any big cruddy pieces in the container that I drained the fuel into. I disconnected the fuel intake line from the fuel pump when I have the problem pump is still drawing suction but the feed line is empty. when the car sits for about five minutes the fuel starts gravity feeding again pretty smoothly and clear from the feed line going into the pump. So your idea may be correct.  I'll post more findings later. Thanks again. al

goodolboydws

Hey,

I know that I didn't type "zooped" from the tank in that last post. I properly used the word s-u-c-k-e-d, and in a proper context. 

Is there some sort of censorship program running here?

goodolboydws

Are you certain that the engine is ACTUALLY "starved for fuel" when warmed up, or are you assuming that is what is happening based on the symptoms that you are observing?

Sometimes an excessive fuel supply can produce some of the same symptoms as an insufficiency.

If it truly is a supply insufficiency,
there may be enough crud in your fuel tank itself that the pumps' in-tank prefilter is getting partially blocked by something there, which may let a SLOW flow through, but cannot cope with a higher demand. If this is the case, all the filters and the fuel lines farther on could be fine.

The scenario could be something like this:
The engine gets shut down and the residual pressure in the fuel system allows enough fuel to get sucked from the tank, past the partial blockage, and then into the carb, filling it.

You later start the engine-with a full carb.

As the engine runs, it starts to draw the fuel level in the carb down faster than the fuel flowing through the partial blockage can refill it. 


Check the ACTUAL fuel flow coming from the fuel pump's output, right at the pump, (or as close as possible, (not at the end of a long fuel line that itself may have a crimp or blockage).

Pump directly into a large clear glass or plastic ontainer (if possible) to simultaneously check for contaminants.

Watch the flow for a while to see if it is sufficient to QUICKLY fill the carb. and if it is, watch to see if it dramatically slows down over time. While the pump is running, be sure to vigorously shake the vehicle to simulate fuel sloshing that would take place during normal driving.


Smalldisplacement

Carb has been rebuilt with the same results, runs better but still starves for fuel when warmed up. I ran a rubber fuel line from the sending unit to the new fuel pump and I am still getting the problem. I know it is with the delivery system because when the car shut's down I disconnect the fuel line going into the carb filter and no fuel is getting through. I blew the lines out with a compressor and no junk came out. Could it be the tank itself? It is the only thing I have not changed. thanks for any input.al

dirt track demon

I had the same problem he is having, and it turned out to be a click beetle in the carb, I dont know how he got in there, but he did.  But you just rebuilt the carb, so you would have found a bug if there was one.

  How did they plug off the egr valve if they removed the cat?  maybe the vacuum is still hooked to the egr and it is opening it and causing loss of vacuum to pull the fuel out of the carb?
Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

earthquake

What you may have is a partical floting around in your float bowl.What happends is at idle the flow of fuel is light,but under driving conditions the fuel flow is sufficint to draw the paritcal into the main jet stopping the flow of fuel.Then after sitting for a little it will fall or float out of the jet untill you try to drive again.We had this prolem on my 73 it drove us crazy trying to find it.hope this helps.Doc
73 sedan parts car,80 crusin wagon conversion,76 F 250 460 SCJ,74 Ranchero 4x4,88 mustang lx convertable,and the readheaded step child 86 uhhh Chevy 4x4(Sorry guys it was cheap)

Smalldisplacement

Float levels checked and adjusted, only slightly off looks like the last owner replaced floats, they looked new. Bowls had some fine sediment on the bottom, cleaned out and sucked out crevices with shop vac. Put carb back together, problem still exists.  Besides complete rebuild or new carb are there any other things that I need to check that I might be missing?

Smalldisplacement

Are those part#'s for rebuild kits? I'll have to check what manufactures carb I have.

Pintony


CARBURETOR KIT 1976 Ford Pinto 2.3 engine

     STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS 903 CARBURETOR KIT
Note: 2 bbl; holley-weber; check carb# *   

     STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS 903A CARBURETOR KIT
Note: holley-weber, 2bbl; see interchange or paper catalog for oe cross ref 25.61   

     STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS 1596 CARBURETOR KIT
Note: holley-weber, 2bbl; see interchange or paper catalog for oe cross ref 25.10   

     KEM 15490C CARBURETOR KIT
Note: h-2; carb. 5200c; check o.e. number 16.74   

     KEM 15490D CARBURETOR KIT
Note: h-2; carb. 5200c; check o.e. number 22.87 

     KEM 15574A CARBURETOR KIT
Note: h-2; carb. 5200c; check o.e. number 16.64 

     TOMCO EMIS 5292B CARBURETOR KIT
Note: economaster repl, h-2 carb; hw-2 carb; type 5200; 5200c; oe# r-7759aaa/60aaa/61aaa/90aaa; 8070aaa/71aaa/72aaa 19.10 

CARBURETOR FLOAT
     STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS FL7 CARBURETOR FLOAT

Note: holley-weber, 2bbl; see interchange or paper catalog for oe cross ref 9.35 
     KEM F103 CARBURETOR FLOAT
Note: h-2; carb. 5200c 7.81

     TOMCO EMIS 704 CARBURETOR FLOAT
Note: economaster repl, h-2 carb; hw-2 carb; type 5200; 5200c; oe# r-7759aaa/60aaa/61aaa/90aaa; 8070aaa/71aaa/72aaa 7.96
   
     TOMCO EMIS 762 CARBURETOR FLOAT
Note: hw-2 carb; type 5200; brass; use same float setting as oe

Smalldisplacement

Okay, I got the timing down, The new magnetic pick-up did not fix the problem. But now I know that the car will stay running if I spray carb cleaner in the carb when it starts to die after warm-up, (I finally got a helper). So it seems the carb is starved of fuel after warm-up. Going to order a rebuilt kit and dive in. Wish me luck, 1st time rebuilding a carb. Does anyone recommend a particular place to order a rebuild kit for the 5200 series carburetor. If not then Advance or O'Rielly's will be the place. Thanks for all the info given. I'll keep ya posted. AL

Smalldisplacement


krazi

I had the same problem with my bobcat a few years back. some crud in the gas tank plugged the fuel line, and it ruined a fuel pump. after a new pump, new fuel filters, and a different gas tank, it started running better. I put a filter between the fuel tank and the steel fuel line. I'll post a part number for the filter later.

krazi
yeah, I'm Krazi!

Gaslight

WOW!  Big thumbs up on that post.  This should be made a sticky in some form.

Jake
My new answering machine message:   
"I am not available right now, but thank you for caring enough to call.
I am making some changes in my life.  Please leave a message after the beep.
If I do not return your call, you are one of the changes."

goodolboydws

Since you have just pulled and reinstalled the distributor, PLUS have just CHANGED the magnetic pickup for the distributor, a distributor problem is most likely the reason behind it NOW not starting, when it had been, just before you did that.  The no start is a new problem, and probably unrelated to the old problem.  That is, working with the assumption that your timing belt didn't suddenlyand coincidentally shear a tooth or jump, (which IS possible, but a low percentage bet).

There is the possibility that the NEW magnetic pickup you just installed is the actual problem. It could be electrically bad, right out of the box, or it could be the wrong part and the air gap is too large, or it might be physically bad and because of that, might be constructed in such a way as to be making it not pick up properly (again, probably the air gap).  Some magnetic pickups have an adjustment slot to provide a range of movement for setting the air gap, others don't. Make sure that the gap is correct. If it IS correct, just for the heck of it, right about now (if it's an easy install and doesn't require pulling the distributor), I'd pop the old one back in and see what happens. At least that way you're back to the original parts.

When you pulled the distributor, did you make matching marks on not only the body of the distributor where it lines up with the mounting surface of the engine, but also make a mark where the distributor rotor was pointing, with the engine at TDC of the compression stroke, before you loosened the distributor?
That's the recommended procedure when you remove a distributor, and no matter what else is wrong with the engine, as long as you don't turn the engine over AT ALL, when the distributor is out, it will get you back to where you were before pulling the distributor.  Some people only make the base casting mark, and don't note or  remember where the rotor was pointing.

It's very easy to be off by one or more teeth of engagement when you reinstall the dist., because the rotor turns as the distributor gear slides into engagement with the mating gear inside the engine.  Lots of people don't notice and compensate for this the first time they pull a distributor, so if that's what it turns out to be, you're not alone.
Another problem that happens sometimes is that if a distributor doesn't want to go all the way in, and hangs up, people will sometimes bump the engine over slightly in an attempt to get it to drop in. Sometimes that works, and sometimes it makes the distributor gear reengage in the wrong position when it finally goes down. 

Unless you played with the distributor while it was off, instead of keeping the internals aligned that's very likely where you are now, close, but just not close enough to start. (If you played with the distributor or turned the engine over withit removed, you may have accidentally installed it approximately 180 degrees off from the proper position. 

To double check that the cam to crank relationship are proper, and so that you can be in the right position to be certain that the distributor is installed in the right position, do the following. Even if you're now already 95% certain, at least this way you can be SURE that distributor positioning isn't part of the problem.

Pull the valve cover off, turn the engine over by hand, watching the valve train movement until both the intake and exhaust valves are closed on #1 and the crankshaft is showing  TopDeadCenter TDC (or the initial idle timing setting for your engine-when the vacuum advance is NOT connected at idle, which is close to TDC, but not exactly there). The piston on #1 should also be all the way up, so it wouldn't hurt to check that too. If IT is not, then there is a good chance that the timing belt has slipped-(and right in the middle of trying to fix the other problem).

Anyway, after getting the engine to TDC, the #1 piston all the way up, the valves on #1 both closed:

Look at where the distributor rotor is pointing. If it is installed properly, the rotor should align
EXACTLY with the tower for that #1 plug.

Before changing anything.

To VERIFY that the setting you are now at is actually TDC for #1 and not TDC for the cylinder that fires 360 CRANKSHAFT DEGREES apart from the #1 cylinder, do this:

Turn the engine over very slowly by hand, with your thumb or a finger over the spark plug hole for #1 cylinder. This way when you get to and start the COMPRESSION stroke for #1 cylinder, you wil be able to actually feel the pressure coming past your hand. This is the best indicator that you are approaching TDC for that cylinder.

This time when you get to TDC, stop. 

Check the rotor position.
Adjust the distributor gear engagement position if necessary, by however much is necessary.

Because you have now meticulously located the proper installation relationship, at the end of this timing procedure, always try to have the distributor installed in such a way as to have available rotational movement of the distributor be approximately equal in both clockwise and counterclockwise directions, so that any necessary fine tuning can be done without having to pull the distributor out again later, after you have rotated the engine.   

Gaslight

Its got to be timing somewhere.  Double check that the plugs wires are in the right place on the cap also.

Jake
My new answering machine message:   
"I am not available right now, but thank you for caring enough to call.
I am making some changes in my life.  Please leave a message after the beep.
If I do not return your call, you are one of the changes."

fast34

I know you said that dist. marks line up, but it sounds 180 degrees off on dist. 

Smalldisplacement

Alright, a little update since the last time I logged on. Changed the fuel pump, filter, all the rubber lines connecting the hard fuel lines to the pump, carb, etc. Changed the magnetic pickup in the distributor. After everythings back together, now it won't start. I removed and reinstalled the distributor (alignment marks aligned) and still no go, got gas, spark, just won't fire up. Backfiring a little through the carb and tailpipe, tried adjusting the distributor back and forth but still won't start. It started up fine before it came out, just would not stay running after warm-up. ANY IDEAS. I'm plumb out.

lostandfound

it sounds like junk in the gas tank try blowing out the lines with a air compressor thats what happend to mine with syomtoms much like yours and it would be fine untill it clogged back up again
1979 2.3l sedan wooohooo

wagonmaster

I had a Mstg II many years ago that had very similar symptoms as yours and it turned out to be the ignition control module. Mine wasn't as consistent as far as time, distance, etc, but, when it would fail, it did feel like it was running out of fuel. I would pull over on the side of the road for several moments, start it back up, and away it would go. Do you have the original Ford module on the car? If so, this is definitely where I would be looking. If you have a friend with a car with a module with the same color grommet, try swapping it and see what happens.
Brien - wagonmaster
'85 LTD LX
'85 LTD Squire wagon

Smalldisplacement

I'll try to get a pump this week. The car already has a straight pipe where the CAT should be, so that's that. I'll trouble shoot more after class tomorrow. Thanks again!! al.

fast34

Your mechanic is wrong as he stated that he STILL has spark when it does this.   Do you know the age or mileage of the fuel pump??  If not then just replace it as they are not expensive.  It may pump fine at an idle, but if internal diaphram is bad, it could be a problem at higher RPMs.

goodolboydws

Much of the underhood stuff that lives next to the engine or suspension, n just the driveline stuff is much easier to access on a RWD vehicle of approximately the same size and width, plus just about all of these parts will be significantly less expensive than their FWD counterparts. Maybe that's part of the attraction of a RWD vehicle for many people who do some of their own work. I know that it is for me.

As to reliability, the Hondas from the Pinto era and even somewhat beyond are nowhere near as good as they are now.Been there, done that a lot of years ago with a '79? Civic wagon.

Smalldisplacement

Thanks for all your advice!! Now that is has stopped raining here in Georgia, I'm going to put the car on ramps and inspect the exhaust and fuel lines coming from the tank, going to make sure I'm not getting an exhaust leak on my fuel lines. If it has a CAT it's coming out. I'll check the plugs and look for the indicators mentioned. If the lines all look good I'll try to wrap them in insulating tape (maybe it's vapor locking?) I'll keep the results posted!! Thanks again! al

P.S. Now I remember why all my other cars have been hondas, Why do I torture myself???

turbo toy

Have you looked at the plugs to see what color they are.If they are extremely sooty,it is an indication of being rich and possibly flooding due to a bad needle and seat or float.If they are extremely white or have splattered deposits from the electrode on them it is an indication of lean,due to fuel starvation.If it has spark when it won't run and it has air,the only other thing it can be is fuel.It sounds like water or trash in the fuel,but I would also check to make sure you dont have a fuel line collapsing.

bro

I worked with my mechanic today and asked him about your problem.  He didn't hesitate and said it would be coil and if not that then electronic control module.  He is a certified dealer mechanic who is responsible for apprentices and has never steered me wrong.  When I last shopped for coil it was $35 new or $10 used.  Keep us posted - we're pulling for ya.

goodolboydws

OK.
Since you said that it ran it at idle for about a half an hour before driving it a half mile and  having it then die, I'm thinking that the fuel supply to or through the carburetor is being reduced by one of the ways mentioned previously, at least part of the time, or under certain conditions.  Try this to confirm or eliminate the fuel supply as being the problem:

First:
Know that an EXCESS of fuel and an INSUFFICIENCY of fuel as well as a blockage of air flow through the carburetor can frequently produce some of the same symptoms, including an engine that seems to choke to a stop.  Before trying to fix the problem, you have to determine which of these 3 possibilities is the cause of the problem. 

Eliminate the possibility of an air supply problem first (usually this would be from a choke plate that is staying shut way too long) When the engine dies, is the choke plate wide open, or not? If it is wide open, cross that off the list.

Next would be an excess of fuel situation, (for the amount of air passing through the carb).
This is fairly easy to eliminate also. The engine has to be warmed up for this test to be reasonably accurate. To verify if the air flow IS actually sufficient and reasonably close to the optimum for the amount of fuel (meaning that there is an approximate 14:1 balance of air to fuel), you can simply block some of the airflow through the carburetor, by using your hand to physically prevent some of the air from entering the air inlet passage to the top of the carburetor casting (the air horn). Do this while the engine is running.

If there is a good air to fuel balance or even a somewhat lean (low amount of gas) before partially blocking the airflow, this will richen the mixture, and the engine should speed up, but it should keep running.  If there is too LITTLE air in the mixture already, (meaning there is too much gas present, for one reason or another) and you reduce the air further by blocking more of the air off, the engine will slow down, and quite possibly die.

AFTER doing the above tests, if you then suspect that the problem is from an insufficiency of fuel:

Try to get it to die again, and this time when it does, have a small plastic bottle of gasoline with you, and drip a SMALL amount of gasoline (like a one drop wide stream-what you might get coming out from a small handheld water pistol)  through the primary side venturi. You can easily make a container to do this with, by poking a hot sewing needle through the cap of a soda bottle. Test the flow rate of the bottle using water before you put any gas into the bottle. (And no, the gasoline won't significantly dissolve the bottle-at least not in anything less than months, I've accidently stored mixed gas/oil for a weedwacker over Winter this way.)

This should be enough fuel to get the engine to start, IF a restricted fuel supply is the problem. 

Here's one more thought:
You may have a problem with something sloshing around in the fuel tank that ONLY blocks off the fuel supply when the car is in motion.  For example, having a lot of water, large particles of assorted crud,  OR LARGE PIECES OF RUST in the gas tank can do this. Smaller sized stuff would tend to make it out of the tank into a fuel filter and then eventually block the filter.To test this teory, all you would have to do is to vigorously and repeatedly shake the car with the engine running, to try to stir up anything that is in the tank.

By the way,  if you can control the stream of gasoline fairly well, you should be able to keep the engine running this way for an extended period of time. I had a sticking fuel inlet valve on our Nissan truck's carburetor and kept it's engine running for up to 5 minutes at a time doing this. On that engine, the carb had a sight glass, so I could tell when the fuel level was too low.  I don't think that 5200 carb  (probably what yours has) has a sight glass, it's been too many years for me to remember.

One more thing. I was wrong about thinking that some of the later 2.3L Pintos had TFI ignition, I was unconsciously merging 2.3L BOBCATs (which did not) with the later 2.3L LYNX(which did). In the animal world Bobcat and Lynx are sometimes used by people referring to the same animal, but not by Ford Motor Company. Brain fade on my part.

Smalldisplacement

If you're talking about cold air intake through the carb, yeah it's clear I think that duct has been missing for quite some time. Air cleaner is the only thing on the carb without the ducting. Could it be a clogged Catalytic converter?

bro

Follow air intake ducting from behind rad grill to the riser's heat-control duct-valve to ensure leaves, etc. haven't obstructed cold air intake.  If this is obstructed you would get heated intake air until engine warms and then when valve closes you wouldn't get any replacement cold air and vehicle would stall.

Let us know if you find anything.