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Various parts for 1980 Pony (good to N.O.S. condition
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1977 Pinto for parts

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72' hatchback parts wanted
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72 pinto drag car

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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

motor mounts

Started by fordpower, February 01, 2017, 11:08:41 AM

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qq2ofus

Left Motor mount has the bump to the rear, right has bump to front...... sitting here looking at a pair now   I always mark mine when removed....... FYI The 302 Mounts on a 77 Maverick grabber are the same mounts minus the bumps (makes them easier to work with
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

Reeves1

I've posted info on centering the engine / trans / pinion angle before.
Although, I did not post the small details.

Posted about what manifolds to use as well.
Along with part numbers.

Yes, custom headers are expensive.
I do have two sets of Headman headers. Have had one set for sale, but folks think $600.00 is too much.
Custom can go 3k to 4k..........no frame mods required. Although, depending on engine & tube size, one may have to take the rear 2 tubes on each side through the inner fenders.

qq2ofus

That is generally the very reason people search this blog for information on what it is going to take to do the job, not to make it easier, but perhaps to bypass the pitfalls such as YOU are not going to get the engine to sit back as far as you like unless you want to destroy the value on the vehicle, so forget about the BFH it does nothing for you, the one that really gets me is the one that says "You must swap the Sway Bar" but tells NOTHING about any special fit or modification that must be done, me I just broke the old bolts off and welded a 1 1/2" 5/16 bolt to fit the bushing cover and then simply tightened the bushing covers with the proper nuts, nor does it post anywhere here that in order to get your measurements properly, the tail shaft of the tranny must be bolted into place as fitted by the crossmember before you move to center your engine for mount fit, and then it does not say anywhere here that the original frame mounts except the right fit into place as it should (you will need 4 3/8" bushings to fit between the frame mount and frame, then all you need do is drill out your mount on the left (2 Holes) and add 2 3/8" bushings between frame mount and frame using case hardened 1 1/2" x 3/8 bolts + Frame washers before tightening down your bolts THEN VIOLA ! THE VERY CENTER of your damper is midpoint.... NOTE Do Not try to use headers unless you are prepared to modify your left and right frames.... UNLESS you have millions and can afford a hefty price tag for "Head Drop Headers", me I used the original 302 manifolds from a Mustang II and it is a little close for the exhaust pipe on the left to the steering arm, but lots of clearance on the right, NOTE it is still a tough fit if you use later Foxbody GT Headers...........  But then this is just "little Ol Me" a 67 Year old Vietnam Vet with Parkinson's and not enough money to piss on...... Bottom line is trust nothing you read until proven !
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

pinto_one

You are so right on that Dick , and I have seen my share of hack jobs , or better I would call butcher jobs , when someone want to stuff a huge engine in a pinto I always tell them not to cut anything , unless your cutting out old rusty floor boards and going to weld in new ones , you do not need to cut anything , not even the radiator surpport , anything larger than a 351 you need to find one that needs new floor , then weld in a pro stock chasis , then stuff a boss 429 in it , the engine will bolt into a stock pinto with the right parts but only 74 up pintos , 71 to 73 mounts will have to be made to order , first V8 pinto I done was back in 1972 , last one was over 25 years ago , my advice is if your going to do it take the time to find one to look at , or better a couple of them to look at , next is do not cut the car , to many have been wasted by cutting them up and losing interest because of more work has to be done , sorry for the long reply but as long as it saves a few cars from being lost it feel it's worth it , later Blaine
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

dick1172762

First V-8 Pinto I read about was about 15 years ago. It was one from a young guy that like you didn't know much or for what matters he really didn't know anything about the swap. He used a V-8 and  tranie from a pickup. He didn't use any kind of mounts because of no money. He simply lowered the engine in as far as it would go, and the used a chain to hold it in place. Used a BFH to get room for the tranie. Mounted the radiator in front of the cut out core support. Used some more chain to hold the hood down, and drove it. 6 3/4 rearend which lasted as long as the car ran. He stated that if he had a posie he would have killed himself. As it was he just smoked the right rear tire. Sound like BS ? No way as the story has been on the net for more years than I like to count. Point is, just how bad do you want to get your car on the road? And lets face it! This guy was and is still a PRO since he was first to do it. Would have loved to see and maybe ride in it. Now if you must have someone tell you what radiator to use, just look on the net. Just remember that this guy knows more than you so he must be a PRO.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Reeves1

Use the search.... you'll likely find a thousand different ways / types of rads used.

ie: there is no one answer......

Look at it, plan it , take measurements & order one.

I haven't used the same rad in 5 builds.

qq2ofus

Quote from: dick1172762 on April 18, 2017, 06:07:56 PM
Nobody on here ever said the people that try to help you were "PRO's". All post on here are not cut into stone and as such, they are only a long tunnel to the truth. It is for you to find the correct path. While I don't think I posted on this problem, I think you should offer a kind word to those "PRO's" on here that were only trying to help you. Looks like they may of left off some details, but they still know more than you. Has a nice day.

You are saying these pros intentionally or unintentionally left off important details ? I do not think the post was rude crude or any other, it simply spoke the truth, check these posts like "10 Point V8 Swap" that post is not mechanically feasible, nor prudent, NOW if a man has a machine shop, then these posts would be deemed as simple, but this is not always the case......... I am one of those who simply loves this car, and will finish it to my last breath...... beauty and accuracy are in the mind of the beholder, where are these pros when these simple people ask a simple question such as I have with the radiator, What radiator did they replace the factory one with...... I received not one viable answer...... Yur Honor Da Defense Rests. I do not state all in life is perfect, but people look up to this blog, maybe for the wrong reason for the correct cause......THE PINTO
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

Pintosopher

Amazing, ;)
NO matter how we temper our advice with patience, (And good sentence structure :o) the read can come off as impudent, or even hostile. Dick and many others are indeed Human, (while I kneel in humble reverence ;D) I wonder if the Internet and forums are just like faith interpretations of Divinity by the many.
Machines are defined by Physical reality and the Laws therein.  It's just your own personal Twilight Zone that causes the grief... :o
  So onto another day of Understanding, Diplomacy , and of course selfless Humor to get through your life... :)

Pintosopher,  another member of the Secret Equine Sect At Ministerial Endeavour (SESAME)   ;D
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

robertwwithee

Well written Dick.  I have responded to other posts and left out some details unintentionally.  We are all not perfect. 

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


dick1172762

Nobody on here ever said the people that try to help you were "PRO's". All post on here are not cut into stone and as such, they are only a long tunnel to the truth. It is for you to find the correct path. While I don't think I posted on this problem, I think you should offer a kind word to those "PRO's" on here that were only trying to help you. Looks like they may of left off some details, but they still know more than you. Has a nice day.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

qq2ofus

I AM CURRENTLY INSTALLING A 302 INTO MY 1977 cRUISER AND I HAD TO SWITCH mounts left mount goes onto right, and then bolt your engine to it using long bolt, doing the left side is a little tougher, I had to remove mount bolts from engine, install frame mount to engine mount, and then line the engine up making sure the transmission tail did not slip one side to the other, I was able to get the long bolt in with cajoling and cussing, and I managed to get one(1) frame mount bolt in, next you either need to hope you have a second left side motor mount, or re-drill 5/16 graduating to 3/8 hole to match the engines comfort fit (lined up no stress on mount) the factory frame bolts are 3/8x3/4" 1/2" head with 9/16 bolt, I have run across several problems the so-called PROS here have decided  it was not worthy mentioning, a Mustang sway bar is needed, but to mount it you must once again do modifications by making a plate for both sides, to mount onto the pinto underframe, then bolt the sway bar to that plate If I had my choices, and knew this I would not have proceeded, lucky for me I had a Mustang II to cannibalize, but it had 2 right side mounts on it (screwed again) So I am using a Borg Warner RAD 4 Speed, had to buy a new clutch cable (for a Merkur) and still trying to figure the radiator as I type this, and U will also need (unless your tranny fits) the driveshaft or Yoke OH and before I forget, I had a brand new pair of Hooker Headers designed in the late 70's for Pinto swap... must be 79 or 80, because they don't fit on a 77, so I used the factory manifolds from the Mustang II  PERFECT !!!!  a lot more work to do b4 I even start it. BUT I AM STILL TICKLED
I'm a member of the Pinto club, driving pintos is what I love  I don't like ol' pickup trucks, I'm a member of the Pinto Club

dick1172762

There is a full set of parts on our for sale post for a v-8 Mustang II / Pinto
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Reeves1


pinto_one

Good call on that Mr Reeves1 , sometimes you have to make them for a better fit , last V8 pinto I done was over 25 years ago , and four what I remember I used two mustang 2 drivers side mounts , you have to check around the parts stores but I do believe they do make replacements, the only mod to the bracket on the car is drill a hole to clear the pin on the engine mount , use a Ford Explorer timing cover and water pump (short) the oil pan will be 💰💰💰💰💰💰
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Reeves1

Seems to me one (both ?) had to be moved back.

I looked for the link for V8 swaps & couldn't find it.....

I used the search & found this one (not the link I was thinking of though)

http://www.fordpinto.com/general-help/1977-pinto-v8-engine-swap/msg157316/#msg157316

kman




2.8 had bolt on motor mount/plates.
KMAN

Wittsend

Sorry that my V-6/V-8 background is lacking to help directly. Hopefully some who has done the swap, or even someone with a V-6 engine (reversing what they say) can let you know. I tried looking on Google images, but didn't find anything that seemed helpful.  I'd also change the title of the post to "V-8 Motor Mounts" in the hope that it will get the attention you need.

fordpower

See your point 77 cruising wagon with v8 using v6 mounts on car. mustang two on motor. I know you reverse motor mounts but don't know which is which. One bigger than the other. Terrible to get old.

Wittsend

I think we are going to need a bit more information for someone here to help you.  When you say, "I know you switch right and lift (left)" for what engine are you asking..., and what year Pinto?  71-73 and the (74, 2.0) had a welded in mount. The 74 and up 2.3 had bolt in mounts. I'm unfamiliar with the V-6 configuration. But, in any of those cases the mounts would go in as the factory designed them, not swapped side for side.  Is this by chance a V-8 swap?  I'm just guessing based on deduction???

fordpower

Ok removed engine 2 yr ago. Now I don't know which mustang mount go were. I know you switch right and lift but after painting I don't know which is right and left.