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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

A few N/A HP questions...

Started by Pale Roader, February 04, 2010, 08:49:34 AM

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woodie

not too much of a cam choice with the 2.3 I went with a 2.0 more parts  check out Turbosport Forums Interisting stuff
watch this

Nwstal

Yeah thats a good idea...although i considered putting it in my pinto but its too clean to hack the firewall :-P

Pale Roader


Oh geez... now look what you made me do. That looked a lot shorter in that little post box...

Pale Roader

Quote from: Nwstal on March 05, 2010, 11:46:04 PM
Seeing it on a computer your right it doesn't make sense.  We were talking mopar here sorry ford guys.  To simplify BB Mopars are good but the stroker Small block is better, its less likely to blow up and the same Cubic inches.  He wanted 400-500HP out of a 383 I'd go with a 408 Small block.  Lighter bigger and faster, with an E-body you have a heavy car tourque is your best friend.  The 383 has a short stroke, same as the 400 but the 400 has a bigger bore than the 440.  Throw a 440 Crank in a 400 and you get 451 Cubic inches.  Beware of 77 and later 400 blocks they are thin wall castings and can't be bored as far, some at all sonic shecking is required.  As far as the rest of it goes, mostly complaining about the lack of decent smaller Mopar cars (no rwd besides rebadged mitsubishi's).  The Pinto is better.  Albeit the right FWD turbo car can run 12's without much modification, mostly wieght reduction.  I don't like running power through CV axles unless its a 4x4, and then I prefer u-joints.  I won't be racing this pinto, because I like driving it.  Race cars blow up...a simple fact of life.  Anyone who disagrees doesn't have a race car, or they should buy a lottery ticket.  I've blown up my fair share mostly showing off, although a few have been freakishly odd mishaps.  The slant six part is true... 500HP under 5000rpms.  Guy runs 10.9's shifting at 5200, try that with 225 cubic inches.  Let alone a 140ci four banger.

Let me just rant a bit on Mopars before this thread gets the toss. While good enough for most people and apparently still quite popular, this is the kind ov thinking that had me straying into Fords (new Fords) in the first place. If i could have made my Charger do 1/2 ov what my stock 96GT could do for the same money i wouldn't have strayed. I'm glad i drove that GT for four years... it really raised the bar for what to expect out ov a performance car (and a 215HP 96GT aint exactly fast...). Now i expect a LOT more outta my Dodges, and from what i've learned over the years, i am not out ov line in my expectations. I just gotta think outside the box.

Thanks for the Mopar 101, but i'm a bit beyond that. You've got me needing a stroker too, not gonna happen. I might end up stroking a 383 to 440 (though i dont like how short the pistons get) or a 400 to 426 (offset grind crank, just to be different), but thats it. I dont see a need for more. Its just waste. There are way too many 500cid Mopars out there running 13's and 12's as proof. The small block idea is a really good one, especially seeing as i'm building a road racer, but i just dont like small blocks. If i did want one in my car i'd pick up a used P7 Nascar engine and detune it a bit. But i dont have $7000 for an engine that still needs a valvetrain and pistons. And seriously, if you think a 383 is less reliable than ANY small block, you are definitely doing something wrong.

I also realize that 99% ov E-bodies are deceivingly heavy, but i just happen to have one ov those 1% cars, and that was no accident. My particular car (optioned as it is) has a lighter factory curb than almost all 6cyl A-bodies built in the 70's, though obviously less than most ov the 60's stuff. I know what i'm doing here. Incidentally, my Challenger is a 6cyl car, and would make a wonderful 6cyl/4spd weirdo project, but i hate those engines more than i dislike small blocks. My brother had a (very) hotrodded 225 in his Valiant and it went about as well as that combo could go... and i'm still not impressed. Thats practically 50's technology, right up there with that famous 509 Purpleshaft cam...

Whew... there, got that outta my system. Now back to Fords. (please dont move the thread)

I find myself very surprised at how much i wanna supertune that lil 2.3 in my Pinto now (no turbo!). I bought the car for a 5.0L EFI, 5spd conversion, which would satisfy my need for mileage and speed in the same car. But now i'm really curious how far i could go with a N/A 2.3, T-5 combo with no big cam or head, just a (really) well-tuned no-compromise exhaust, compression, intake, mild headwork, small carb, etc. Also plan on about 2000lb curb weight and some nice suspension and brakes to stick my 17" tires a bit better. I posted a (still lonely...) thread about that elsewhere though...

71pintoracer

Quote from: Nwstal on March 05, 2010, 11:46:04 PM
The slant six part is true... 500HP under 5000rpms.  Guy runs 10.9's shifting at 5200, try that with 225 cubic inches.  Let alone a 140ci four banger.
turbo toy runs 10's with a streetable 140 ci four banger.....he makes us V8 guys cry :'( :P :lol:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Srt

I understand the draw that an understated out of the ordinary high performance vehicle has. 

Throughout the history of the automobile in the USA there have been countless discussions concerning the attributes of one way to achieve ones vehicular desires vs. the guy who has other ideas.

This topic appears to have left the realm of relevence as it pertains to the Ford Pinto.

Might I suggest it be moved to the 'Off Topic' section of the forum?
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Nwstal

Quote from: Nwstal on March 05, 2010, 12:13:19 PM
If it was me id stroke a small block run 10.5:1 on aluminum heads a 292 mopar cam and fast or accel efi programmable is better but bolt on is easier.  Would be in the 450 to 500 range and idle at 750.  Best of old mixed with new.  After i finish my modest pinto build im finding a mopar too race.  The pinto is too damn fun to drive to want it too radical hotrods break and id rather keep it on the road and race something i dont mind not driving every day.  I want to build an EFI twin charged slant six 500 hp under 5000rpms just because someone once told me it was a dumb idea and he drives a 10 second chevy have to zoop gettin beat by a six banger I hate fwds and i love my pinto would hate to break it just for the sake of going faster when it cruises and corners better than anything else ive had
Seeing it on a computer your right it doesn't make sense.  We were talking mopar here sorry ford guys.  To simplify BB Mopars are good but the stroker Small block is better, its less likely to blow up and the same Cubic inches.  He wanted 400-500HP out of a 383 I'd go with a 408 Small block.  Lighter bigger and faster, with an E-body you have a heavy car tourque is your best friend.  The 383 has a short stroke, same as the 400 but the 400 has a bigger bore than the 440.  Throw a 440 Crank in a 400 and you get 451 Cubic inches.  Beware of 77 and later 400 blocks they are thin wall castings and can't be bored as far, some at all sonic shecking is required.  As far as the rest of it goes, mostly complaining about the lack of decent smaller Mopar cars (no rwd besides rebadged mitsubishi's).  The Pinto is better.  Albeit the right FWD turbo car can run 12's without much modification, mostly wieght reduction.  I don't like running power through CV axles unless its a 4x4, and then I prefer u-joints.  I won't be racing this pinto, because I like driving it.  Race cars blow up...a simple fact of life.  Anyone who disagrees doesn't have a race car, or they should buy a lottery ticket.  I've blown up my fair share mostly showing off, although a few have been freakishly odd mishaps.  The slant six part is true... 500HP under 5000rpms.  Guy runs 10.9's shifting at 5200, try that with 225 cubic inches.  Let alone a 140ci four banger.

Nwstal

Done with a phone punctuation goes out the window... sorry

popbumper

NWSTAL - you must be swingin' on the caffeine, because it's almost impossible to understand what you just said. It just seems to run on and on with no punctuation. Wow.

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

Nwstal

If it was me id stroke a small block run 10.5:1 on aluminum heads a 292 mopar cam and fast or accel efi programmable is better but bolt on is easier.  Would be in the 450 to 500 range and idle at 750.  Best of old mixed with new.  After i finish my modest pinto build im finding a mopar too race.  The pinto is too damn fun to drive to want it too radical hotrods break and id rather keep it on the road and race something i dont mind not driving every day.  I want to build an EFI twin charged slant six 500 hp under 5000rpms just because someone once told me it was a dumb idea and he drives a 10 second chevy have to zoop gettin beat by a six banger I hate fwds and i love my pinto would hate to break it just for the sake of going faster when it cruises and corners better than anything else ive had

Pale Roader

Quote from: Nwstal on March 04, 2010, 06:04:10 PM
Sorry bout that its just you asked and then argued about the information given... I was raised Mopar bought a pinto because there are no Rwd mopars with 4 bangers that arent rebadged mesobitchies and i dont care for running power through cv axles...
I wasn't arguing, i was debating ideas. Its a good way to squeeze more out ov a thread. Mainly, people misunderstand what i'm asking. I just wanted to know if a 2.3 Ford could be made as powerful AND as efficient as a similar sized high-end V-Tec Honda I4. That question was answered. I am satisfied.  I wasn't asking if i should go turbo, or V8, or if there actually is a need for a fast, and efficient car. There is, but i cant afford the V8 right now, and i dont want to listen to a turbo'd 4.

I wanna get out ov that old school thinking that says you need boost, NOS or ridiculous cubes to go fast (Mopar sites are terrible, probably THE worst for this mindset). I've been there, it was fun. It got old. I haven't decided whats gonna power my Challenger yet, but it wont be a 440, or a 471, or a 500, or a 524 or 572, or a new 'hemi' for that matter. It wont be blown (just sold my 6-71 actually), it wont be turbo'd,  and it wont be gassed, but i can guarantee you it will be fast. Think a F.A.S.T. style 383 4spd but with WAY better tires.

I had plans for a mega-HP 6-71 blown 400, but at this point it would end up a 700+ HP car i could drive every second weekend. I'd rather have 400HP in that car and drive it everyday. Well, maybe closer to 500...

And seriously...?? a Colt...?? Never could stand to look at those things... Maybe its just me, but early Pintos look wicked. No other small car comes close. And FWD is not an option. Never was. Never will be.

Turbo Toy

A Colt is an excellent platform for a small RWD Mopar and good looking too. Been there , done that.

Nwstal

Sorry bout that its just you asked and then argued about the information given... I was raised Mopar bought a pinto because there are no Rwd mopars with 4 bangers that arent rebadged mesobitchies and i dont care for running power through cv axles...

Pale Roader

Edit: (groan...) On second thought, i'm not gonna bother debating with you, you're obviously a LOT smarter than i am. I will say this though, you definitely sound like a Mopar guy...

Nwstal

LMAO this thread kills me you want new get a hemi... want to go fast add a blower... Want a streetable pinto listen err. READ what has been written ... Why ask the question if you wont listen to the answer.  I am a Mopar guy and you might want to choose a better place to race than the canyons with that E body because that pinto you called out is a four banger and from what ive read about 2700 bucks worth of 10 second car.  hell there some six bangers over at slantsix.org you might have a chance with but most are A bodies so your challenger is still too heavy.  Except for the one Ram 150 in the 11s. Big Block Mopars are fast Chevys ARE cheap and hondas are still RICE.  You want fast and high tech. get a neon I can tell you how to get 200 NA HP with one of them.  THIS IS A PINTO FORUM stop talkin HONDAS and "ov" is not a word if you have been driving for 20 years you should be able to spell a 2 letter word... I am building a naturally aspirated motor and will hit 240 hp with the touch of a button.

dholvrsn

One Webber (or Mikuni or Del Lorto or etc.) barrel per cylinder?

If I ever get another Pinto, it's likely to become a hopped up N/A four popper.

DGH
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

Pale Roader

Quote from: 71pintoracer on February 09, 2010, 07:40:07 PM
Ummm, as a V8 Pinto owner, I have to disagree a little. I get about 16 mpg. A turbo 4 will do much better on gas, is lighter and with the proper tuning will haul freight. I heard a turbo 4 on youtube and it sounded bad a$$. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound and power of my V8, but I would like to have a turbo 4 as well!  ;D
   As far as the Honda, yea, apples and oranges. An all aluminum DOHC v-tech vs. an old school iron sohc, no comparing the two.  :cheesy_n:

And in that, the final simple answer to my original question.

As for the turbo, i realize there is a lot ov love here for those, i'm just not a turbo, or 4cyl/6cyl guy, and you'll never convince me they sound good, even if they're leaving my glorious V8 in the dust. You could give me the mother ov all super-efficient turbo combos... the "legendary" Supra JTZ (whatever) engine, and i still wouldn't want it in anything i own. This 4cyl N/A crap is disturbingly appealing though, and i'm still trying to figure out why...

Pale Roader

Quote from: turbopinto72 on February 09, 2010, 09:28:59 AM
HEHEHE, Ok, dont listen to Chris cuz his panties are allways in a wad......  ;D

Getting back on topic now.......................   8)

And which one is Chris...??

Pale Roader

Quote from: pintosopher on February 09, 2010, 08:56:25 AM
Ok Enough ...
PR , this is nothing more than Mental Mastur.......

Hey, all i'm looking for here is some interesting discussion. I've learned a lot about these little engines on this site, and in this thread. Good stuff.

QuoteI used to Work for Comptech USA in the early part of this decade, and I saw all the goodies and R&D  that went on for Honda & Acura. This company had Multiple national championships in all kinds of Acura/Honda products.
I used to walk past a IMSA NSX powered Camel Lights prototype racer to punch in every day. There was a Indy Honda turbo V8 sitting on a stand that was the prototype motor. I smelled ethanol as I heard one or two Dyno cells running Full Chat for IRL Olds Auroura for Chip Gannasi  and other teams.
The Point is .... I learned the difference between Dreaming and reality. When you see the Money that is thrown at Honda racing and how it trickles down into the consumer products, you realize that only Ford Cosworth came close to the current development in the old days of the '70's.
  I Know what a S2000 is capable of and it takes Tech and complexity for that to happen in today's world. Like it simple? Live with the limitations of the Old school and forget the Hondas...
  I Like my old school pinto, and if I was wealthy, it would have a Cosworth YB under the Hood .
  The Honda would be the commuter /beater/runner.
  Go to the magazine rack and look for Classic Ford magazine (UK version) and look what the English have done with their "old School rides. Maybe you'll see the light..

Done on this thread...

Pintosopher

Interesting. We were at the junkyard today, looking for some other stuff, when i asked if they had an S-2000, and they actually did. So i checked it out. I was rather surprised at how big that little plant is, for something that is 'smaller' than my 2.3. But then i was surprised at how small it is, physically, for something that can crank out power and performance like that.

I've come to obsess about the new technology, so much so that its literally derailed my Challenger project, as i re-think what is going to power it. I LOVE old cars, have driven them exclusively since i was 16, but they are just not in the same league, efficiency wise. To ME... the best possible combo is an old classic, with new powertrain. The more i learn about them, the more i wanna sell all my 440's and 383's and 500's. Overdrives, EFI, aluminum-everything (lightweight)... going fast and being able to drive it every day, in  the rain, 6000 miles, on less gas. I really dont have to go on, we've all driven new cars.

Actually, i came around to thinking about this while reading on another Pinto topic... the Volvo DOHC swap. Just kinda went from optimized 2.3 pinto engine, to DOHC pinto engine, to complete Honda swap. Not that i'm planning this route.

Yeah... i'm a chronic mental masturbator...

Pale Roader

Quote from: Turbo Toy on February 09, 2010, 07:20:50 AM
Well sir now. I'll be more than happy to outrun that Challenger of yours with my turbo four cylinder Pinto. My car is a true daily driver, I can run in the 10's in the quarter mile and I still get 23 MPG. Bring it on or STFU! Sounds to me like you need to go to a Mopar or :showback: Honda site.

Wow... hate much...???

Tell ya what, let me spend the same amount ov money on the E-body as you have in your car and we'll meet in the canyon somewhere. I'm not building a drag car. I just use numbers to give an idea ov speed, since we all have a good idea how fast say, 14 seconds is, or 12 seconds, or...

And if i want to know how to spend $50000 on my car, look like i run 9's and actually run 13's then i'll go to the Mopar site. I'd check out a Honda site, but i cant stand looking at them, or listening to Honda guys complain about poor gas mileage...

Pale Roader

Quote from: hellfirejim on February 09, 2010, 06:41:15 AM
I understand about the V8 deal but also consider that turbo 4 guys really enjoy spanking those V8s on about half the cubes....

I also realize that you think the honda motor is the greatest but you are comparing apples to pears.  You have a 70s technology verse 2000 plus with all the latest technology.  can't do it.  Each should be judged on their own merit.

Yeah well, that was kinda the point ov this thread. I figured that because the Ford has such a big aftermarket, it might have a chance. I told you guys i dont know much about these engines.

QuoteHere is an idea for you, swap the honda trans and engine into the Pinto.  That way you could have the Pinto and the power of the Honda with all its realted computer gadgets and wiring and plumbing and all of that. 

For me no thanks, I will stay with the 150hp 4cyl and enjoy it.  My pinto has no problem staying up with traffic and it is very fun to drive.

Probably would if i could. Sounds like i'd end up spending all themoney i'd save on gas on the damn swap though...

QuoteBTW: The simplicity of the pinto system makes it very appealing in  these days of cars being so complicated that you have to have $10,000 dollar tools to work on them.

but of course that is just my opinion.

Yes, dont get me wrong, that IS an appeal. I like simple. BUT... on the other hand, i've been driving, and (been driven nuts by) old cars for 20 years. The new technology has OBVIOUS appeal, and is all new to me. I love driving my girlfriend's 96GT 4.6 Mustang... and its not exactly fast.

71pintoracer

Quote from: Pale Roader on February 09, 2010, 06:26:06 AM
I understand what you're saying, but if i wanted to go that fast, i'll just drive my Challenger. I know i'll piss off a bunch here, but i dont see why someone would go turbo-4 over a mild, or even stock SBF (289/302) install. The  turbo will zoop as much gas, if not more than a small V8, and wont sound nearly as cool. But hey... i'm a V8 guy...


Ummm, as a V8 Pinto owner, I have to disagree a little. I get about 16 mpg. A turbo 4 will do much better on gas, is lighter and with the proper tuning will haul freight. I heard a turbo 4 on youtube and it sounded bad a$$. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound and power of my V8, but I would like to have a turbo 4 as well!  ;D
   As far as the Honda, yea, apples and oranges. An all aluminum DOHC v-tech vs. an old school iron sohc, no comparing the two.  :cheesy_n:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

turbopinto72

HEHEHE, Ok, dont listen to Chris cuz his panties are allways in a wad......  ;D

Getting back on topic now.......................   8)
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

Pintosopher

Ok Enough ...
PR , this is nothing more than Mental Mastur.......
I used to Work for Comptech USA in the early part of this decade, and I saw all the goodies and R&D  that went on for Honda & Acura. This company had Multiple national championships in all kinds of Acura/Honda products.
I used to walk past a IMSA NSX powered Camel Lights prototype racer to punch in every day. There was a Indy Honda turbo V8 sitting on a stand that was the prototype motor. I smelled ethanol as I heard one or two Dyno cells running Full Chat for IRL Olds Auroura for Chip Gannasi  and other teams.
The Point is .... I learned the difference between Dreaming and reality. When you see the Money that is thrown at Honda racing and how it trickles down into the consumer products, you realize that only Ford Cosworth came close to the current development in the old days of the '70's.
  I Know what a S2000 is capable of and it takes Tech and complexity for that to happen in today's world. Like it simple? Live with the limitations of the Old school and forget the Hondas...
  I Like my old school pinto, and if I was wealthy, it would have a Cosworth YB under the Hood .
  The Honda would be the commuter /beater/runner.
  Go to the magazine rack and look for Classic Ford magazine (UK version) and look what the English have done with their "old School rides. Maybe you'll see the light..

Done on this thread...

Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Turbo Toy

Quote from: Pale Roader on February 09, 2010, 06:26:06 AM
I understand what you're saying, but if i wanted to go that fast, i'll just drive my Challenger. I know i'll piss off a bunch here, but i dont see why someone would go turbo-4 over a mild, or even stock SBF (289/302) install. The  turbo will zoop as much gas, if not more than a small V8, and wont sound nearly as cool. But hey... i'm a V8 guy...

I'm just looking for a commuter. More than a daily driver, a long-range commuter (100 miles a day). But i just cannot drive a slow car. A commuter pinto needn't run 12's, but 88HP and highway gears just dont cut it, now matter HOW light it is. Heh... i tried to stay excited about driving my pinto, and it was fun because it had a stick and cost $300 (the cheaper they are, the more fun i find...), and it had 17's and Z-rated summer rubber. But straining to hold 22mph on long highway up-grades in 2nd... well, that got old fast.

I bet a 140HP N/A 2.3 with better trans and better gears and 400 less pounds will more than satisfy... but i just cannot stop thinking about those damn Hondas... . . .

Check this out:

2000-2005 (?) Honda S-2000 engine, inline-4, V-Tec DOHC, 2L, 11.1:1 CR, all aluminum, 240HP... NATURALLY ASPIRATED. The Japanese version... with its 11.7:1 CR, makes 247HP... on PUMP GAS. Backed by what many call the best 6spd RWD stick ever made, and 4.10 (i think) gears, the S-2000 goes high 13's and gets stooopid gas mileage. Just adding a GOOD set ov (set ov, listen to the V8 guy...) a really good headER, exhaust, air intake and tune, no internal mods, they can make 270+ HP.  This sucker spins 9000RPM, but can putt around under 3000 if you need to save gas. The S-2000 is also a good 700-800lbs heavier than an early pinto would be with the same powertrain...

THAT... is my new watermark.

Just thinking out loud...
Well sir now. I'll be more than happy to outrun that Challenger of yours with my turbo four cylinder Pinto. My car is a true daily driver, I can run in the 10's in the quarter mile and I still get 23 MPG. Bring it on or STFU! Sounds to me like you need to go to a Mopar or :showback: Honda site.













hellfirejim

I understand about the V8 deal but also consider that turbo 4 guys really enjoy spanking those V8s on about half the cubes....

I also realize that you think the honda motor is the greatest but you are comparing apples to pears.  You have a 70s technology verse 2000 plus with all the latest technology.  can't do it.  Each should be judged on their own merit.

Here is an idea for you, swap the honda trans and engine into the Pinto.  That way you could have the Pinto and the power of the Honda with all its realted computer gadgets and wiring and plumbing and all of that. 

For me no thanks, I will stay with the 150hp 4cyl and enjoy it.  My pinto has no problem staying up with traffic and it is very fun to drive.
BTW: The simplicity of the pinto system makes it very appealing in  these days of cars being so complicated that you have to have $10,000 dollar tools to work on them.

but of course that is just my opinion.
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


Pale Roader

Quote from: hellfirejim on February 08, 2010, 12:55:30 PM
Atually the 2.3 compares very favorably, particularly in reliability.  You can really lean on these things and they hold up very well.  it takes almost nothing more than stock parts [turbo long block] and the proper turbo and fuel injection upgrades to make 300hp.  More can be made and I am here to tell you that if you don't kow what you are doing 400hp to the rear wheels can get you into trouble in a real hurry.  For most the 300hp to the rear wheels will be faster than about 855 of most everything outthere.  Step up to 400 real wheel hp and there is not much the will be able to hang in with you. 
But it is like I said, it all depends on what you want.
jim

I understand what you're saying, but if i wanted to go that fast, i'll just drive my Challenger. I know i'll piss off a bunch here, but i dont see why someone would go turbo-4 over a mild, or even stock SBF (289/302) install. The  turbo will zoop as much gas, if not more than a small V8, and wont sound nearly as cool. But hey... i'm a V8 guy...

I'm just looking for a commuter. More than a daily driver, a long-range commuter (100 miles a day). But i just cannot drive a slow car. A commuter pinto needn't run 12's, but 88HP and highway gears just dont cut it, now matter HOW light it is. Heh... i tried to stay excited about driving my pinto, and it was fun because it had a stick and cost $300 (the cheaper they are, the more fun i find...), and it had 17's and Z-rated summer rubber. But straining to hold 22mph on long highway up-grades in 2nd... well, that got old fast.

I bet a 140HP N/A 2.3 with better trans and better gears and 400 less pounds will more than satisfy... but i just cannot stop thinking about those damn Hondas... . . .

Check this out:

2000-2005 (?) Honda S-2000 engine, inline-4, V-Tec DOHC, 2L, 11.1:1 CR, all aluminum, 240HP... NATURALLY ASPIRATED. The Japanese version... with its 11.7:1 CR, makes 247HP... on PUMP GAS. Backed by what many call the best 6spd RWD stick ever made, and 4.10 (i think) gears, the S-2000 goes high 13's and gets stooopid gas mileage. Just adding a GOOD set ov (set ov, listen to the V8 guy...) a really good headER, exhaust, air intake and tune, no internal mods, they can make 270+ HP.  This sucker spins 9000RPM, but can putt around under 3000 if you need to save gas. The S-2000 is also a good 700-800lbs heavier than an early pinto would be with the same powertrain...

THAT... is my new watermark.

Just thinking out loud... 

hellfirejim

Atually the 2.3 compares very favorably, particularly in reliability.  You can really lean on these things and they hold up very well.  it takes almost nothing more than stock parts [turbo long block] and the proper turbo and fuel injection upgrades to make 300hp.  More can be made and I am here to tell you that if you don't kow what you are doing 400hp to the rear wheels can get you into trouble in a real hurry.  For most the 300hp to the rear wheels will be faster than about 855 of most everything outthere.  Step up to 400 real wheel hp and there is not much the will be able to hang in with you. 
But it is like I said, it all depends on what you want.
jim
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


Pale Roader

Quote from: hellfirejim on February 07, 2010, 11:09:59 AM
it is a matter of expectations.  For a good daily commute motor with good response around 140/150 hp is not to unusual and is doable.  Combined with a lite weight car and gearing this is a pretty good combination.

Yeah, thats my 'stage 1' plan. I've been told from a few that did this and also a couple 2.3 Fox-body guys that have lightened their cars to Pinto weights that this should pretty much make a car that can hang with stock LX 5.0L's, or say a 96 Mustang GT with the early style 4.6/5spd. Thats not fast in my books, but its not bad for a really cheap car that gets impressive mileage, not to mention looks way cooler..

QuoteMy combo is based of a t-bird turbo motor with all forged internals.  I have a round port head that is getting 'cleaned up" [nothing serious], a mild better than stock cam and surfacing to bring the compression up to about 9 to 1.  I have a set of ranger headers modified to go into a 21/2 inch exhaust.  The intake is a modified 4 brl Offy unit and to that i am going to do a throttle body EFI  conversion.  This makes a very reliable engine with sporty performance. 

You say "only" 140/150 hp but you really have to consider the power to weight ratio.  that is what really important.  Consider you had a car that weights 3500lbs with a 300hp engine.  that would be a power to weight ratio of 11.7 pounds per horspower. 
Now consider that you have an engine that puts 150hp but you are dealing with a weight of only 2500 lbs.  That would give you a power to weight ratio of 16 pounds per horsepower.  will it be as quick?  No it won't but it is not that far off the 300hp car and the 150 horsepower car will be pretty quick and safe to drive.

Well actually my pinto will only be about 2000lbs, or less if i can, i'm a master ov weight-reduction. So a N/A 140-150HP 4-banger with a T5 and gears should move pretty quick. I also imagine that if i had a 240HP I4 stuffed in there with optimized trans and gears it would be in the realm ov 'fast'.

QuoteOne last thought, there are a lot of cars out there with only about 200hp or less.  If that 200hp motor is in a 3500lb car the PtoW ratio would be 17.5.  see what I am getting at?  so don't down play the 150hp motor because ina light weight pinto you will be quicker  than a fair amount of cars and definately it will be safe to go play in traffic.

jim

Heh heh... well i'm certainly not concerned with 'safe'. That doesn't sound fun at all. I dont think i've ever had a 'safe' car in 20 years... But basically, i was just wondering how the 2.3 could potentially compare to the new Honda I4's in terms ov power and efficiency, even given the aftermarket available for the Ford. Not very well it seems.

hellfirejim

it is a matter of expectations.  For a good daily commute motor with good response around 140/150 hp is not to unusual and is doable.  Combined with a lite weight car and gearing this is a pretty good combination.

My combo is based of a t-bird turbo motor with all forged internals.  I have a round port head that is getting 'cleaned up" [nothing serious], a mild better than stock cam and surfacing to bring the compression up to about 9 to 1.  I have a set of ranger headers modified to go into a 21/2 inch exhaust.  The intake is a modified 4 brl Offy unit and to that i am going to do a throttle body EFI  conversion.  This makes a very reliable engine with sporty performance. 

You say "only" 140/150 hp but you really have to consider the power to weight ratio.  that is what really important.  Consider you had a car that weights 3500lbs with a 300hp engine.  that would be a power to weight ratio of 11.7 pounds per horspower. 
Now consider that you have an engine that puts 150hp but you are dealing with a weight of only 2500 lbs.  That would give you a power to weight ratio of 16 pounds per horsepower.  will it be as quick?  No it won't but it is not that far off the 300hp car and the 150 horsepower car will be pretty quick and safe to drive.

One last thought, there are a lot of cars out there with only about 200hp or less.  If that 200hp motor is in a 3500lb car the PtoW ratio would be 17.5.  see what I am getting at?  so don't down play the 150hp motor because ina light weight pinto you will be quicker  than a fair amount of cars and definately it will be safe to go play in traffic.

jim
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385