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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Engine dies - '78 stock 2.3

Started by 78txpony, January 14, 2010, 12:12:48 PM

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78txpony

By now the fix is feeling pretty promising.  I am still a bit paranoid though, especially at stop lights. 
She ran all that time from my mom's house to mine, and today from work and back with a long idling time at the state inspection place.  I had to do a little carb tweak, but that was it.

I had to replace the 31 year old license plate light, but I caught that before I got there.  I know the guy there and he probably would have let it go anyway with just a verbal warning.....  He loves old cars and looks forwards to seeing mine...

-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

dave1987

Woo! Glad to hear she's running again! :D
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

popbumper

Congrats Rob, so glad to hear it worked out!!  :laugh:

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

78txpony

Success!   
Thanks for the hints given.  It was the distributor (pickup in particular).

Everything went well on this operation - even easier than I had thought. 
I first learned that these distys turn CW, and not CCW as stated in many other Ford sites.

After pulling the cap, I lined up the disty rotor to the #1 plug wire tower by bumping the starter and then turning the crank bolt (7/8") a little more to perfectly line up the #1 reluctor tooth right in the middle of the pickup.  I marked the reluctor tooth, the #1 tower location, the base of the disty at the casting mold mark and lastly the block itself.  I made darn SURE I took the ratchet out of the crank bolt...  :surprised:
I pulled the clamp bolt (11/16", under the PVC crankcase hose), removed disty clamp and slowly pulled out the old disty with very slight short twists, watching where the reluctor turned when the gears unmeshed.  It went CW a hair over 1/2 a tooth.
I pulled it out straight the rest of the way and moved it to the edge of the block (without tilting) and removed it. 
Naturally one would want to tilt it away from the block, BUT, if the oil pump shaft was in the disty, it could have easily fallen into the block. 

I attached a picture of the disty hole; the "no-zone" obviously near the drive gear.  The other side is just a puddle of oil.


The engine teardown section in the manual  :read: had a good picture of the oil pump shaft and retainer.  The retainer is nothing more than a C-clip that is near the middle of the ~3" long shaft and fits between the oil pump and the block, keeping the shaft in place when the disty is pulled.  If the engine has not been torn down before, then the clip ~should~ be there.

I marked the new disty just like the old one, noting #1 firing position, and smeared engine oil on the disty O-ring. 
Getting it back in CORRECTLY was the hardest part. It does not just drop in - it is more of a drop in, engage gear, twist body, push down some (straight), twist more, cuss a bit, engage the gear push and twist more, and cuss a lot because now it is seated but half a reluctor tooth advanced!  :nocool:

Okay, gently twist it out and try again.  Repeat the above, with even more pushing twisting and lots more cussing, because now it is finally home and it is half a reluctor tooth retarded!   :mad:

Third time is a charm, right?  Well, after repeating most of the above, it went in, aligned just a hair off and that could be easily adjusted out.  :lol:  I think getting the oil pump shaft to align was most of the problem.

I installed the clamp, vac hoses, rotor, cap (with wires falling off and rust falling out!) and air cleaner.  A complete tune-up will be done this spring.

Moment of truth - engine fired right up and ran smooth!  :hypno: :hypno: After 10 minutes of warm up, I got out the timing light and set to 6*BTDC with vac advance disconnected and plugged.  I was about 4* off - not bad.  With the timing light, I bumped the throttle and verified centrifugal advance was working. 

After setting timing, idle speed and mixture, engine ran great - even smoother than before.  :amazed: Disty bolt was tightened and everything reassembled and connected. 

Car ran great at idle, around the neighborhood for 10 minutes, and even for the 20 minute drive home.  I think she is fixed now!   ;D ;D
I confirmed the main source of problem was the pickup coil failing when heated up.  I somewhat verified this by taking AC voltage measurements when cold, and slowly heated it by pouring hot water on the pickup coil. Voltage was way less when hot. 

Although I could have replaced just the pickup coil, a reman disty was the same price as the pickup.  Also, the disty shaft was loosey-goosey - at least 0.015" side-side slop when cold.  I think it is was a reman unit installed 53K miles ago.  The original lasted over 100K and was replaced out of preventive maintanence.  It was due and should last another 50K or so!
:fastcar:
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

blupinto

You got it Rob!Fingers are crossed and JuJu is on the way!  :D
One can never have too many Pintos!

78txpony

Blupinto, I agree with you - most reman stuff is crap. 
The disty that is in my car is just that.  I replaced it long ago at 100K miles in troubleshooting a noise problem.  It was not the disty but I figured I would leave the new one int here.  It is now 53K miles later, so that reinforces the posibility that it is bad.  I WISH I knew what I did withthe original disty!! That was 15 years ago though.

The new disty came in yesterday along with a bunch of other parts, so next week on Tuesday i will go to my mom's house and replace it.  Wish me luck.

Rest of the electrical system is fine.  However, i did put a lot of wear and tear on the original starter and 4 year old battery during those dead times. 

Fuel pump is new - not reman.  Also every water pump I get is new.  I have never seen a new one go bad but the remans leak a few weeks after the warr goes out.

In all of 32 years, this has been the most frustrating time I had with this car - not too bad though.
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

blupinto

I detest remanufactured stuff! It always fails on me! The funny thing with my '74 wasshe went downhill just fine, but would shudder, die, and not restart if she faced uphill. Sure enough, after she got a new (yes NEW!) fuel pump she was great! That adventure was a great example of eliminating the possible causes of her not running right and the resulting frustration as one more thing was eliminated with no change in the car's action.  Like I said Rob, don't give up on the old girl.  You've checked battery, alternator, and related stuff right?
One can never have too many Pintos!

dave1987

Fuel pump?

I went through four fuel pumps in eight months a couple years ago. They were all re-manufactured pumps though.

I initially changed it out because it was leaking fuel from the weep hole (which fuel will leak out of if the diaphragm goes bad). After that, the next three pumps I replaced it with were faulty reman's. I finally got a good one on the fourth try and have been using the same one for about a year and a half now.

Oh, and I had similar symptoms. :P
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

blupinto

You are welcome Rob. I think most of us have been where you are. It's the charm of an old car.  ::)  Yes, someday we'll laugh about it but right now you pound her steering wheel screaaming, "why are you doing this to me!?" Wildfire was a piece of work. To get her going where she could take a 1 and a half hour trip it was a series of starts and stops- a process of elimination. Her problem turned out to be a faulty fuel pump. That was after replacing her spark plug wires, timing belt and hoses, cleaning out her gas tank, thermostat, alternator belt, battery, etc.  I have a sneaking suspicion that all she needs now is to have her timing reset.  If it's the ignition switch, how hard would that be to replace? Keep the faith. Don't give up on her just yet.  If all else fails, do you have a trusted mechanic you could run this through? Maybe there's something we're all missing. Good luck. I'm pulling for you and Tramp.
One can never have too many Pintos!

78txpony

Blupinto - thanks for your moral support.  After that day of finally getting stranded, I need it.  I sure hat to get rid of it, too, but if it turns out to be a major engine problem, it may some to that. 
The car would shudder a little before it died.  When it died, there would be no spark so it has to be the ignition system. 

Dave, both coil & ignition module were replaced and still same symptoms, but the problem is progressively getting worse. 
Shorter running time and longer cooling off time before it would start again.

PG76, no loss on the $21 ignition module - I will keep it on and put the old nasty (possibly still good one) in the trunk for a spare along with tools to install it. 

I am looking into the possibilities of the ignition switch, but I do not think that is it.

I wish I had some freeze-it spreay to spray the disty pickup, but I decided just to replace the whole disty anyway. 
It should be here on Monday or Tuesday.  For 50 bucks, it is my last shot.  If that is not it, i will be totally lost. 

This is the first bad failure I has with this car, so after 30 years, it was way over due. 
I think of others who have similar issues on their 2, 5, and 10 year old jap crap and I feel lots better. 
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

pintoguy76

I have intermittent stall and no start on my 76 2.3. I think it is a short or bad connection somewhere. Check for power at the coil + wire when it has no spark. Maybe its the coil? Also need to check for power to the control module but i forget which wire it is. Maybe the ignition switch is bad and not making contact when IT gets warm?

I replaced the distributor in my 76  also when I had ignition problems, So that is possible too. Dont feel bad about replacing that module. I think it needed to be replaced anyways. 
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

dave1987

for your control module, run the car around the block a few times, turn it off at the house, then try turning it back on. if it refuses to go, take the module off and throw it in the freezer to let it cool down. then pull it back out about 5 minutes later and see what it does.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

blupinto

Hi Rob. I probably don't know what I'm talking about but I'll give it a shot. If heat is the culprit, is something maybe expanding from the heat, causing a short? When the engine dies, is the choke open as it should be? When she stalls, does she falter first or is it sudden death? I would hate for you to give up on her, as she's been in your family for years and there's a lot of history with her.  Old cars have personalities and quirks. I know it's very frustrating (I KNOW!!! lol.) but watch it be something simple and that will make you think, "Now why didn't I see that!?" Good luck Rob. I'm rootin' for you to beat this difficulty.
One can never have too many Pintos!

78txpony

Well, today was a long nightmare. 
After work I barely made it to the parts store and coasted up into the parking lot. 
I bought and installed a new cheapie ignition module, but it still would not start.  I tried to tear the distributor apart in the parking lot to change the pickup but could not get it apart.  I finally gave up with it and almost could not get the reluctor seated all the way.  I finally got it on and it started and I hauled butt to my mom's house.  After a visit it restarted but died a mile later.  It was warm out and the engine finally reached 180*.  After an hour of trying, I gave up and walked back to her house. Engine had cooled to 130* then.  I had dinner there and an hour later in the dark cold, we went to try once more - engine was about 80*.  It started and I hauled back to her house, where it was left. 

SO - it is an ignition problem dependent on engine temp.  I have NO spark from the coil with the high voltage wire pulled.  Typically, sparks jump right to the fender.
At 160 - 180* the ignition dies.  When cooled to room temp or colder it runs.  Waiting time gets longer the longer the engine runs.  Heat soak to disty I am thinking.

Now could a worn timing belt or related aux gears cause an issue like this? 
What else could it be??

My last suspect is the distributor, so i ordered one for 50 bucks from Rockauto. It looks like the pickup is there.  I remember changing the disty long ago for a noise problem, but that was not the issue.  So hopefully that is it. 
If not, it might just be time for the car to go.....
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

dick1172762

Had the same problem with my 80 Pinto. It would shut off just like you turned the key off. I'd get out and bang on the carb next to the needle and seat and get back in the car and it would start right up. Some times it would die again in 5 miles or so, and I'd have to bang on it again. Got it home and changed the needle and seat and it never died again. When modukles go bad, most of the time they don't come back to life.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

pintoguy76

That just means its been on its way out the door for years.... my 79 has the epoxy that has melted all over the inner fender. It still works but i'm expecting it to die, sometime totally unexpected and inconvenient. I don't have $50 for a new one right now.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

dave1987

Rockauto has the pickup as well ranging from $12 to $45.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

78txpony

Quote from: pintoguy76 on January 26, 2010, 12:58:19 PM
Theres your answer! The melted epoxy is not good, a good sign that the ICM is bad.
It started melting many years ago though!   
I guess when it runs out of goo, the car runs out of go??  :hypno:

I am gonna hope I can get as far as the auto parts store to pick up a cheapy to get me home.  If that seems to fix it, I will get a Motorcraft one from Rockauto for longevity. 

I just hope it is not the disty pickup.........
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

pintoguy76

Theres your answer! The melted epoxy is not good, a good sign that the ICM is bad.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

78txpony

Quote from: pintoguy76 on January 24, 2010, 09:30:09 PM
Could be the control module too or the magnetic pickup in the distributor. Had the same problems when my control module went out.
Well, it seems like you thinking the same as I am now.

Today was dramatic.  I had replaced the coil a few days ago and yesterday's trip from work and back was uneventful.
Today was different.  It was pretty cool out this morning (30's) and I had to go a different route to work, up on the horrible highway.  I got all the way to the bad part of town (after about 20 minutes), and it died again.  Pedal pumping did no good. I was able to coast into the parking lot to some old eirrie apartments.  Pulled the coil wire off - no spark. 
I fiddled with the wiring and connectors, no spark.
I waited and tried again and repeated.  After 20 minutes I was ready just to start hiking, when I decided to give it one last try - SPARK! 
The car ran good again and I HAULED butt to work.  I wanted to have enough momentum to coast to a safe place should it die again and also before the car got too much warmer.  I made it to work without further issues.  Of course I still have to get home now, so i might schedule in a midway shopping trip.

My conclusion now is that it is a temperature based failure of either the ICM or the disty pickup.  Which is more likely??
The warmer it is out, the soomer it dies (around 10 minutes).  When colder, it dies after around 20 minutes.  My usual trip to work is 20 minutes.
Not sure if its related to engine temp or ambient temp.

The ICM is more $$ but easy to replace.  I will probably try it. 
The Motorcract one is the most $$ but I heard the cheap ones are not much good...  :read:
The epoxy potting has mostly melted out of mine and it is original.  This is also a type of failure that electronic components give.  :nocool:
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

pintoguy76

Could be the control module too or the magnetic pickup in the distributor. Had the same problems when my control module went out.

Could also be a bad connection somewhere.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

78txpony

Another update:

The next day on 1-23, the engine died again on the way home from work.  This time it was on a long street with no turnoffs anywhere. 
I was going about 50 when it shufddered and died, so with the key left on, I pumped the gas and held my foot to the floor.  After a few seconds, the car let off a HUGE black backfire - much like a shotgun blast...  Never seen a guy behind me change lanes so fast....
So, I know I am getting fuel.  I cranked the heck out of it with no luck, and I finally found a left turn lane to pull into. 
I popped the hood and yanked the HV coil wire - NO SPARK! 
I fiddled with the two LV wires and I got spark again. 
Engine started right up and I got home. 

One note is that the warmer it is outside, the sooner it dies.  It never died on the way TO work.

I changed the coil as I had a new spare on the shelf (had for 20 years...)

I will see how that does. 
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

rjernee

its possible that you have watter in your fuel , water could be getting in around the fill tube seat or at the float seal , you can try adding a couple cans of heet to your tank , that should take out any water that you may have.  change your fuel filter , when you do cut the old one open and see if you have alot of garbage in it . i have both of my pintos double filtered , the one at the carb , naturally , but before that i have a clear one that you can see thru. if you had alot of junk get in you may have something floating in your float bowl. also take a fuel sample and see the condition of your fuel. if all that checks out i have seen the same symptoms you have described with a bad ignition coil  , mine would run good for 20 miles then just die , afer a few minutes the car woud start and run. it is possible that your pickup coil is bad , or if you have a catalytic converter it may have become plugged, i have spent some time on the side of the road with a crowbar beating them from time to time.. hope this helps, Richard

78txpony

Well, it happened again today, 25 miles later, with exactly the same symptoms.  This time it happened as I turned into my alleyway and I coasted to a stop behind my house!  :surprised:

I cranked it for 7 seconds and pumped the gas about 12 times.  I cranked it another 5 seconds - nothing. 

I pushed the pedal to the floor and cranked it and it started normally. 
No smoke or sputtering like it was flooded. Ran fine then. 
Typically, one extra pedal pump would have it almost flooded.

So, it seems almost like fuel starvation.   :lost:

Would a clogged gas tank vent line cause this? 
Water in fuel?  Would water pass through that fine fuel filter? 
I will check it the next chance I get to see if there is crap in it. 
Should I look on the suction side of the pump or the discharge? 
I question the gas I got too - it was that Shell nitrogen-enriched stuff.  I usually get gas at walmart andnever had an issue with it. 


-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

dave1987

Check out Schucks/Oreilly's. They have a high quality Borg Warner cap with a lifetime warranty for $7.99, and a rotor to match for $6.99 I think, also lifetime warranty though!

Brass inserts to lessen corrosion too!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

78txpony

This spring when I change the valve seals, the motor will get a complete tuneup.  I always thought if the fuel filter was getting clogged, WOT would be boggy.  This old car screamed like a tortured banshee all the way up to 5K!  :surprised:
However I will check the filter since the engine top will be apart. 

I need to find a quality disty cap, too.  Mine has the original one.   :amazed:
I replaced it many years ago and it wore out in 6k miles.  The original one went back on...
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

pintoguy76

How about the fuel filter? I have taken the filters off before and banged the end of them  on a rock or something to get the junk out of them and then stick them back on. Lots of rust particles in the tank on all 3 of my pintos.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

78txpony

Thanks... Replacing the tank sending unit is on my agenda, so looks like these will both get done at the same time.  I see that SCC enterprises sells pickup screens - costly but I will probably get one anyway.  Time to see what the inside of the tank looks like! 
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster

Pintosopher

Time to drain and  Pull tank, junk is clogging screen on tank pickup, But check fuel pump delivery to carb too!

Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

78txpony

Okay, so I am paranoid now...
Half way on the way home from work yesterday in the old Pinto, I stopped off at a Shell station to fill the gas tank and got back on the road.  It was about 53 out and the last several days were in the teens and 20's.   About 3/10 of a mile after the gas stop, the car shuddered when going from 1st to 2nd.  It felt unusual but I kept going.  About another 3/10 of a mile, I was going from 3rd to 4th, another smaller shudder.  (I shifted at around 2K - big engine load.)

After getting up to about 40 another 3/10 of a mile, the engine shuddered badly for about 3 seconds and I pushed the clutch in.  Engine stumbled badly  for 2 seconds and stalled.  While coasting, it would not restart.  I put my foot to the floor and tried to start it - it cranked but not fired.  I coasted onto a side street & stopped - it would not start. 

I got out and pulled the coil wire.  When cranking, blue arcs flowed all around the coil - timing and ignition was fine. 
I looked into the carb and opened the throttle - I could not see a squirt (kinda dark out) but vapor rose out of it. 
I put the lid back on the air cleaner and it started up. 

All the way home I drove it aggressively - WOT starts, high RPMs through the gears - it ran great.   Idle was fine.

This happened once before 3 years ago when it was cold out, but no further issues ever arose from it.

Recon it was moisture in the gas tank?  Maybe moisture from the tank sides was washed to the bottom with the new gas? 

Sure, the coil, wires, and disty cap are all old, but I would not think any of them would cause a sudden random death....

Any ideas?
-Rob Young
1978 Pinto Pony sedan (Old Faithful) a.k.a. "the Tramp"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/thelonerider2005/sets
1972 Cutlass Supreme Convertible (442 clone) -"Lady" (My mistress...)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robsalbum/sets
1986 Cutlass Supreme Coupe - "Pristine"
1997 H-D Sportster