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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

attempted air conditioning in a turbo pinto

Started by dholvrsn, August 17, 2009, 12:05:00 PM

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phils toys

2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

dholvrsn

Well, they got Wee Beastie to hold R-134. However the compressor and condenser fans won't kick on. Will check out my wiring on my next day off.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

Shopped by the shop tonight. More parts & $$$. Ordered the Ford PN#19B596 set of 40 AC O-rings to pick out the three or five that hopefully work.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

This rolling disaster just keeps rolling and disastering along. The $300 part and two more hours of gold plated labor later, the thing still leaks!

The guy at the shop is guessing that this may need square cross-section O-rings to seal right and wondering if it takes two or three of them. Any Ford climate control experts lurking here know?

Jeech! Never before has the frugal luxury of the Ford Pinto been so expensive!  >:(
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

Besides the fact this project is seven weeks behind schedule and three times over budget and climbing, and if this car was a person, I'd want to choke it or at least not be on talking terms for quite a few days for putting me through this, no issues at all....

Anyway, here's what a $300 Pinto part looks like.  >:( Since ran over to the AC shop.

Sometimes I wonder if Ford is just Fnord typoed.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

hellfirejim

Looks like pretty decent work.  any issues????
jim
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


dholvrsn

Turns out that I'm only screwed over $300 for that part. Almost enough to make me feel better.

Still waiting for it to get delivered. May even get the AC fixed in time for winter when it will be reeeeeeaaally useful.

I've just had bad experiences in my life where you do as much as you can, but you can't do it all, and things spiral out of control when somebody else gets involved. Some of go-arounds of InterStellar OverDrive, Fun Rockets, and getting as much stuff mounted in the Pinto as possible and then taking it to the shop.

Anyway, here are a couple of pictures of the hoses the shop made.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

hellfirejim

Foegot to mention that if i wasn't orking on this car I would be building a race car of some type and you know what a money pit that is.

jim
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


hellfirejim

Now you know whyI refer to my car as DLC..... Damn Little Car.  It is always wanting more money, you would think it was one of my kids... :lol:
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


dholvrsn

Except maybe Model Rocketry.

This is almost enough to drive me back into some serious Model Rocketry.

I could launch a little Flying Wing about 300 or more times for as much as that @#$%&*!! evaporator manifold costs.

Whatever you do, don't start a Model Rocker company. Especially don't start one that's good enough to get the wrong type of attention.

Going to stop by the AC shop after work....
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

hellfirejim

Hang in there.  I know it is not much consulation but this sort of thing happens to us all at one time or another.  I have had to replace both the engine and the trans in my pinto and I definately was not planning on that......

I look at it as this is my hobby and my escape and if i wasn't doing this I would be spending money on something else and not nearly having as much fun... :lol:
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


dholvrsn

I just bent over and spent $450 on apparently the last ever NOS evaporator manifold to be found in the Free World. Or at at least on anybody's computer inventory....

This reminded me of the '90 Mark VII, aka: The Sinkin' Lincoln, that I had from '97 to '04. It got its nickname because it was a $7000 used car that ended up costing me $4000 in air suspension repairs. Half of that was probably do to dealer mechanic ineptitude.

I also had a '84 Thunder-Bucket that was also a rust and repair magnet. But the 5.0 EFI was nice. Made my '80 Pinto that I had new until '92 look reeeeeeal good.

Is it just me or were those '80s Fox Body Luxury Coupes a lot less well screwed together and alot more rust prone then our cheapo explodey Pintos from the '70s?

I mentioned getting air conditioning in those old tractor cabs earlier. Well, I talked to a mechanic that worked for my Grandpa's Allis dealership back during those days. His guess was that this project would end up in the $1400-2000 range. I'm guessing that it'll be around $1600-1700 if nothing else is broke. My original guess at starting this project was about $300-600 which seemed like a real grown-up type expensive then. Maybe I'm just thinking in terms of expensive grown-up prices back when I was a kid/teen in the '70s instead of what prices are now.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

The trouble with being a pioneer is that you sometimes get scalped.

Looks like I'm being to spend $1000 for a job half done.

I really don't want to spend $450 for a NOS evaporator manifold to get this thing finished.

I'm mad at myself for getting into this. I'm mad at the Pinto for leaking and getting me into this. I'm sore at the shop for tarnishing their sterling reputation over this, but their gold-plated bill remains. I feel a little let down by this group because nobody here has yet came forward with this necessary piece.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

hellfirejim

Quote from: dholvrsn on September 12, 2009, 09:40:55 AM
Checked up on my Pinto yesterday after work. The new hoses were fabricated and attached. The hoses for the compressor were ran through the hole in the fender well where the old fresh air snorkle use to be. However the AC manifold leaks. I'm hoping that it's only a bad O-ring or two instead of something even pricier.
Keep the faith...  These things usually cost more than planed especialy a first time doing something.  You have provided alot of good insight to get this done and it is appreciated.   When it is done, could you give us an overview on what you did and what you would have done differently knowing what you know now????
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


dholvrsn

Checked up on my Pinto yesterday after work. The new hoses were fabricated and attached. The hoses for the compressor were ran through the hole in the fender well where the old fresh air snorkle use to be. However the AC manifold leaks. I'm hoping that it's only a bad O-ring or two instead of something even pricier.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

I took Wee Beastie to the Air Conditioning shop to have it finished up and do what I don't have the expertise to do myself. Looks like this may cost me $500 to $1100 (or more!) extra. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!  :amazed:

Above being a project that I thought that I would have done back about four weeks ago when it was still above 90? and I initially thought would cost between $300 and $600.

There may even be an additional bugaboo with the Ford expansion valve in the manifold having a tendency not to hold up well and being unavailable as a replacement part. I'm hoping that somebody like Mr. Morgan can help me out in case this thing is bad.

OTOH, about the youngest mechanic there though that a Pinto van with a turbo "Mustang" engine was pretty cool and looked like a lot of fun.  8)

Plus I'm Pintoless for two or more days... And having withdrawal effects.... :P
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

Well, the plan fell apart. I was going to go ahead even in today's rain and got tripped up by the other mishap catagory. I got 11 blocks into my commute and my goofy Pinto quit (I'm starting another thread to ask about this). I hope to fix it by Labor Day and try to make it to the AC shop on Tuesday or Wednesday.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

oldkayaker

You are correct, Pinto's did use an accumulator as you stated.  The Ford manuals leave a lot to be desired.  Looking more closely, the manuals seem to indicate the Pinto had a suction accumulator starting in at least 74.  The manuals are not complete enough to tell on earlier years.  My 71 had a dealer installed A/C which did not have a suction accumulator.  I was confusing the term accumulator with the "accumulator/drier" used in later Fords.  Learn something new evryday about these cars.

The installation looks great.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

hellfirejim

Nice work.  I love it when a plan comes together....
jim
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


dholvrsn

Here is the whole thing assembled outside the car.

Here is the whole thing mounted on the engine, plus the belt and tensioner.

I even mounted one of the original hoses, with new O-rings.

Here's the other end on the condenser. I had to tweak it only five times to fit without rubbing anything.

I'm planning on taking this to Jones Auto in Omaha tomorrow if it doesn't rain or other mishap. Get a the other hoses made and everything flushed and charged. I'm hoping that I don't have to move anything because of clearance gotchas or that the dry for an unknown number of years evaporator doesn't blow out.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

I'm not going to argue with you, but apparently my goofy Pinto hasn't read the Ford Manuals.

To go over a couple of points: If I would have stayed with the V-belts while doing the original engine swap, I could have mostly bolted something like this in. If I didn't want the modern and oh-so- trendy belt tensioner, I could have washered and spacered something like this together and bolted it on.

Instead, I machined a bunch of webbing out of a HR-980 mount, made my own adapter out of an piece of 10mm thick aluminum plate I got out of the dumpster, plus some spacers and a rear mount to make up for some of that missing webbing.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

oldkayaker

Thanks for sharing your project details.  According to the Ford manuals that I have, the Pinto did not come with a accumulator/drier.  They used a receiver/drier.  The item bolted to your condenser and the generic Parker item both look like receiver/driers, hence 71Pintoracer's question.  I suspect it might work with both providing you use only one clutch control system and one pressure drop point.  If the accumulator/drier is installed, it goes between the evaporator and the compressor suction.  Not sure if the accumulator/drier would tolerate the higher pressure and temperature if installed where the receiver/drier is located.  Interesting project.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

dholvrsn

I'm adding both a drier and accumulator because the Pinto orignally came with both.

I have no idea of what was Ford's logic behind this....
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

71pintoracer

 ??? Your condenser has a drier on it, why do you need another one?
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

dholvrsn

Got the new fans today. They're from a company called Thunder Chicken Racing. What's almost funny is that my old high school team was called the Thunder Hawks, which were sometimes derogatorily called the Thunder Chickens. My old school district doesn't exist any more, went though dissolution. Anyway, I flipped the blades for that they can arch the proper way and burn through that Bernoulli thingie when used as pushers. Off course the polarity will to be reversed in best technobabble or Mad Science fashion.

This is the condenser with the new wrinkle brackets and the new fans mounted on it.

This is the condenser on drugs mounted on Wee Beastie. The new brackets fit the factory condenser mounting holes. The one fan sits lower to clear a lot of stuff. The power steering cooler had to be bent slightly forward to clear that fan.

My replacement accumulator came today. I had the idea that it was a direct replacement. Turned out to be a generic replacement. Not that I'm out of much since I would probably have to replace the hoses either way. Looks like I'll start making mounting brackets tomorrow out of scrap aluminum strap.

Unless the compressor arrives, then I'll got going on finishing  up the adaptor mount out of scrap aluminum plate.

OTOH, I'm starting to wonder if I really like Pintos this much to go through all this expense and effort. Not that I went through these thoughts 27 times during the turbo swap.... :-\
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dholvrsn

I haven't abandoned this project... Yet.... Just that the target keeps moving and I'm waiting for the parts to come.

I made up some 2x1/8" aluminum tabs to mount the condenser with the plan being to drill new holes in the radiator support instead of using the originals. Then about an hour after I made them, I had a new wrinkle on how to possibly mount this using the factory holes. Ended up buying new electric fans because the ones that I planned on using with the original condenser are a little too big. Grrrr! After I survive this, I'm going to have a garage sale to clean out some excess parts like this and get a bit of my money back. I'm now waiting for the fans to arrive. The final mounting of the condenser will be based on a fan flanking each side of the center radiator brace.

At this point I decided to buy a rebuilt compressor instead of risking a junkyard one being good. I tried to find an rebuilt compressor at the parts store down the street. None have both the big ears and the 6 groove serpentine belt. That compressor for the 5.0 was so close but yet so far with everything being off by about a centimeter or so. Ended up buying a universal-fit replacement Sanden 508 online for less then a rebuild at the store. The current plan is to make an adaptor plate to hang it on the HR980 bracket.

Here is my bracket collection. After doing some measuring, I found out that serpentine bracket from the late '80s and early '90s 2.3s holds the compressor about 1" closer to the frame. The mid '80s (and maybe earlier) FS6 bracket will work as is. So if you're already have a V-belt setup on your turbo Pinto, keep it that way because because it's already a bolt on. Here's the HR980 bracket I milled down and somewhat smoothed out with a Dremel to take the 508 that I'm waiting on it to arrive. Although I'm not sure if it really needed all that work.

BTW, took Wee Beastie to an alignment shop with a $10 off coupon today, Was told that two tie-rod ends wore worn and the rack was leaking and was given a $948 estimate. I'm going to be fixing this myself after the AC ordeal is over.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
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'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

71pintoracer

The HR980 was not used for very long. The main problem with them is they would leak at the shaft seal. I still have the tools to replace the seal. As far as using 134, I converted a friends car over more than three years ago, I replaced the seal and added a pusher fan to help cool the condenser. No matter what type of compressor you use, (or freon for that matter) you have got to keep the condenser (and the engine temp) cool. Push the high side over 250 and you are not going to get brrr cold air and your compressor is going to hate you. A good rule of thumb is that your high side pressure at idle should be 100-120 psi higher than the outside temp. However, the hotter it is, the the more your high side will go up. So if it's a 100 degree day, you will probably see 250.
The "expansion valve in the liquid line" that oldkayaker is talking about is an orifice tube. It does not control the amount of freon going into the evap core like an expansion valve does, it is a fixed rate so the compressor is cycled on & off to keep the evap from freezing. They work good, just a little harder on the clutch.

If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

oldkayaker

Very little experience here but will add my 2 cents.  That first compressor with a serpitine belt pulley looks to be very compact and being the latest model, you will have the best chance of finding one already running 134A.  What part of the assembly caused the interferrence?  I was hoping to use this compressor when I get around to doing this.  Thanks for sharing your experiences.

If go to http://www.turbotbird.com/ and look under Tech Articles, Latest Additions, there is an article titled "R12 to R134 Conversion" which seems to indicate that the HR-980 compressor can be run on 134A.

That last compressor with a V-belt pulley and 4 ports looks identical to the one on my 1986 5.0 Mustang.  Although it uses R12, the pulley is the serpitine type.

The later model AC systems use a expansion valve located inside the high pressure hose between the condensor and the evaporator.  The Pinto expansion valve is located in the aluminum block on the fire wall.  I suspect that only one should be used.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

lugnut

I'm 99% sure that the one you painted black is a HR980. I did not mean to say that the HR980 is junk- I have one working great on a turbo Bird using R-12. (I stocked up when it was still cheap!) But the hr980 can fail with the higher pressure of 134a under extreme conditions (low airflow, small condenser, overcharge etc)  But hey- you already have the compressor- why not give it a try- whats the worst that could happen? You lose a/c is all! I believe there is a kit to mount a Sanden compressor in its place.  I saw it somewhere on the web last month when I searched on 'hr980' but i don't remenber where. Regarding Nippondenso, you might be thinking of the one you have with the 4 mounting holes, which may be a FS6 or FS10 which iirc was built by Ford under license from Nippondenso.  Maybe you can look at junkyards for what they used on 4 cyl Rangers after they switched to 134a, or try searching on different cars on Rockauto.com
 Most of the above is off the top of my head from some research i did on the web earlier this year. Sorry I can't give any links!
mike
BTW, thanks for the pics and info- I may be trying the same thing in the future!

Quote from: dholvrsn on August 19, 2009, 04:50:14 PM
I let it the wagon year thing with the contractor slide. It would have only got the guy peeved in a moment of joy.

BTW, I believe that the compressor is probably a Nippondenso rebranded as a Ford. If it is, do any of you AC wonks know of any Nippondenso compressors with the mounting ears, a six groove serpentine pulley, and is R134a ready? With reference number or donor vehicle? Thanks!

BTW, still no UPS dude with condenser. Their tracker hasn't updated since last night.

dholvrsn

The condenser came at a quarter 'til 8 tonight. Gogo and Didi are dancing. Although Pozzo and Lucky are a little grumpy and cynical....

A little too late to start anything. Especially because tonight is the end of my annual vacation and I'm back at work at 6:30 AM tomorrow.

Here it is with the old unit plus the angle brackets that I'm going to use to mount it. The representative of Nostalgia Air Parts ways that it's big enough.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser