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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Spring rates for corner carver/daily driver & new leaf spring advice

Started by JohnW, January 15, 2014, 10:20:06 PM

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Srt

i went to a 'softer' single leaf rear spring simply because the car was getting more street use than any thing else at the time.
 
it was a big improvement over the stock multi leaf spring in that not only was 'steerability' (is that even a word?) under hard braking was so much more predictable because i could 'feel' what the rear of the car was doing. 


I could feel the weight shifting, setting itself and as a result i could use a lot less steering to stay the course (meaning not oversteer into the weeds).


that said, i really do love a car that can be thrown around at will!!!






[size=78%] [/size]
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

82expghost

23 turbo weight goes up what i would say significantly, first, all that exrta cast iron 75# give or take, intercooler piping and intercooler (non stock and on front) (40#) and where the extra weight is makes a difference. as for rear ends, i love welded diffs, but i like to get squirely, but for a daily, ls/posi/locker all the way, so you dont anoy those pesky law enforcers
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

82expghost

Quote from: JohnW on January 20, 2014, 01:24:17 PM
82expghost: How much did the Landrum springs lower your car from stock? Someone in another thread said they dropped it 3"
they lowered it about three inches, the rate is what makes the difference, they get allot stiffer as it compresses more, think thats called progresion rate or somthing? when i put them on, it was sitting lower, but the spring didnt even really start to compress.
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

82expghost

Quote from: JohnW on January 19, 2014, 10:08:04 AM
Everything I'm doing with the leaf springs I'm doing is because I ripped it all out to put a 3.73 LS Explorer 8.8 under it. The Landrums claim they're for lighter weight cars than a stock Pinto going by the specs, you have no issues with them on the street?


I acually never heard they are for lighter cars, and i have no issues with them on the street, the 150s are stiff thoe, you feel it when you hit a bump, thats why i said go lighter, and maybe lighter shocks. But i like my car like that, i love the gokart feel.

98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

Srt

Bigger bars help but you'll still get plastered at Last Call


ok, now back to our regularly scheduled programming...
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Pintosopher

Quote from: dick1172762 on March 02, 2015, 08:25:11 AM
I ran both 2.0 and 2.3 engines in my race cars. Stiffer springs will only help on a smooth track. There is a fine line between spring rate and road/track condition. Too much rate and your worse off than stock. Big bars / good shocks / lowered / 7" or 8" wide wheels / GOOD TIRES will give you MORE car than you can drive unless your already a racer or named Dale Jr. All those other mods are just fine tuning and are only necessary AFTER all the other mods are done. Tires will make the biggest improvement of all the things you can do to a Pinto bar none. Stock springs will work just fine for now!!!! And watts linkage? Just ask anyone who has raced a 79/85 Mazda Rx 7 about them. The watts linkage is removed and replaced by a panhard rod as the first mod to a Rx 7 racer. Quite reading all that west coast BS in the so called car magazines. They just want you to do their dirty work and then tell them if those mods really work. And all the mods in the world will not make your Pinto handled like the new breed of cars and still be streetable.
While I agree the Watts Linkage is too much to fab into a Pinto Unibody properly ( mega $ to subframe and Heavy) I have been racing My Pinto in Solo 2 and Hillclimb without any Panhard rod. My car has really stiff rear leafs, and that may be why it works better without the Panhard rod than it did with. My Road racing buddies said to let the rear float enough to take set, you'll find it's more controllable. Of course, they also said if I had light rear springs, I might need that Panhard rod to keep the car from wildly rear steering in Solo 2.
I prefer that my Hiney tell me how much steering input to try, there are so many other ways to get it to turn on the Street without knocking your fillings out.
Dick And Steve and others have been there, I'll weigh in on their side unless I stumble on a new law of physics..

Pintosopher, Bigger bars help but you'll still get plastered at Last Call ;D
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

Srt

this is a great thread.  don't be afraid to experiment but don't let magazine articles convince you that they are the truth. experience counts.
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

dick1172762

I ran both 2.0 and 2.3 engines in my race cars. Stiffer springs will only help on a smooth track. There is a fine line between spring rate and road/track condition. Too much rate and your worse off than stock. Big bars / good shocks / lowered / 7" or 8" wide wheels / GOOD TIRES will give you MORE car than you can drive unless your already a racer or named Dale Jr. All those other mods are just fine tuning and are only necessary AFTER all the other mods are done. Tires will make the biggest improvement of all the things you can do to a Pinto bar none. Stock springs will work just fine for now!!!! And watts linkage? Just ask anyone who has raced a 79/85 Mazda Rx 7 about them. The watts linkage is removed and replaced by a panhard rod as the first mod to a Rx 7 racer. Quite reading all that west coast BS in the so called car magazines. They just want you to do their dirty work and then tell them if those mods really work. And all the mods in the world will not make your Pinto handled like the new breed of cars and still be streetable.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

With the turbo motor the front of the car ('73) lifts considerably on acceleration. Beyond a N/A vs Turbo motor is the fact that the 2.0 weighs considerably less than the 2.3. I'd assume that any 2.3 spring would be an upgrade on that fact alone. How much better a standard 2.3 vs V-6 and A/C, big bumpers, power steering etc, etc. would factor is anyone's guess. If they are already to stiff for the ride height needed then cutting them will only make it worse (as noted).

This is something I have considered for my car too.  But, my feeling is anyone who raced an early Pinto probably ran a 2.0 and what worked for them might not work for the added 2.3 AND turbo weight.  Hopefully someone will have a good answer.

76hotrodpinto

Great thread! Thanks for bringing it back out. On this subject I have a couple questions myself.

Is the weight difference between a n/a motor and turbo motor enough to merit any suspension adjustments?

My 76 came with an 8" mustang rear end in it, and the rear shackle to body mount is stacked under of the bumper mount bracket. I see a few holes just forward of them, that make me wonder, if they may have been the original position of the shackle mounts. Am I right? If so, is the longer spring from the mustang as well?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

I'm bringing this old thread back because I have the same kind of question now.

My car originally had a 2.0 with no A/C that was supplanted with a much heavier 2.3T. The stock coil springs are totally inadequate now.

Looking at Moog coils for a later Pinto, I'm not sure what rate to get. The 2.3 w/AC springs (353lb/in) cost half as much as the 2.8 w/AC (364lb/in) version. That doesn't seem like a very big difference in rate.

I'd like a firm ride, good handling, and I'm not looking to lower car much. My concern is that I'll have to trim the spring to get the right height I want and trimming them will cause the spring rate to increase further.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

JohnW

Ordering springs soon, still can't decide on spring rate. Leaning towards the 100lb Landrums, anyone run 100s or 125s on a street driven car? I'm thinking the 125s are going to be too stiff.
-

dick1172762

I call all limited slip rear ends lockers for Ford and posie(???) for GM. Sorry for that. Like Srt said, I never had one bit of trouble with the 6 3/4 rear end. But now days there no go fast parts for them. Put an 8" under the car and forget about it. It'll out last the car by a long ways. Like I said before, a Pinto with very few mod be faster that most, if not all, of the owners.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Srt

Quote from: dick1172762 on January 20, 2014, 08:54:07 AM
I used an 8" under all of my race Pintos. All started out with a 6 3/4" as a racer. My 72 was built in 75 at which time you could still buy a Mustang II locker for a 6 3/4" rear end. About 1985 I sold the car and built an 80 Pinto which was my daily driver. By this time the locker were no longer for sale at Ford. So in went an 8" with a Detroit locker. I raced the 80 Pinto with both 6 3/4" and 8" and I was quick to see that road racing cars had to have some kind of locker to go fast. Just the locker was worth about 2 seconds a lap on a 1' 30" track. In 88 I bought the 72 back without a rear end so in went an 8" with a Detroit locker. The 6 3/4" is plenty strong but with out a locker it use is limited to the street as the only locker you can get now is an arc welder. The Detroit locker and the welded rear end drive the same on the track but on the street the welded rear end is a real pain in the butt. I have never seen a 6 3/4" blow up because it will only spin one tire. Lock it and it will be the weak link in your car.
Just wondering. I had a limited slip in my 6.75 (not a locker) and never had any problems however; with the turbo and my choice of tires/wheels (185/70-13 continentals or, later, dunlops stretched over 7" steel wheels didn't lend much resistance to a lot of torque being suddenly applied. I have to say that other than the lack of ratios available the little axle treated me well despite my blatant abuse!  All I remember is that over several years of street, canyon, more than a few weekend trips to riverside calclub events and countless trips to irwindale & OCIR the car really never let me down (except once!!!!!)
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

JohnW

82expghost: How much did the Landrum springs lower your car from stock? Someone in another thread said they dropped it 3"
-

Pintosopher

I'll have to plead ignorance on the Leaf spring rates on my 72. Upon questioning the guy who built it, (Lucky 4 me) I was told the leafs were Chrysler  :o ( Blasphemy!) and that the Front coils were Mustang II V8 coils cut down. I was also told I had a MII Competition Front bar and v8 Rear bar.
It was hopeless to street drive with any marginal comfort, and the Open 6-3/4 rear made me eat bananas at the local autocross. But then, I just bit the bullet and bought a 8" rear and then later I had my Trac lok Delivered to a Local 3 day Autocross. I'll post a few images of insanity .... The last frame says it all, And my work group is coming up in 45 minutes!

Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

dick1172762

I used an 8" under all of my race Pintos. All started out with a 6 3/4" as a racer. My 72 was built in 75 at which time you could still buy a Mustang II locker for a 6 3/4" rear end. About 1985 I sold the car and built an 80 Pinto which was my daily driver. By this time the locker were no longer for sale at Ford. So in went an 8" with a Detroit locker. I raced the 80 Pinto with both 6 3/4" and 8" and I was quick to see that road racing cars had to have some kind of locker to go fast. Just the locker was worth about 2 seconds a lap on a 1' 30" track. In 88 I bought the 72 back without a rear end so in went an 8" with a Detroit locker. The 6 3/4" is plenty strong but with out a locker it use is limited to the street as the only locker you can get now is an arc welder. The Detroit locker and the welded rear end drive the same on the track but on the street the welded rear end is a real pain in the butt. I have never seen a 6 3/4" blow up because it will only spin one tire. Lock it and it will be the weak link in your car.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Srt

dick; what rear end did you/do you use under your car?


how many guys here have exploded  a 6.75 differential.


if you did, what were you doing?



the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

JohnW

I wasn't sure if there might have also been a little bit of bind due to the angle of the arms. As an example, putting tension on one of the arms when a wheel hits a bump. I never studied 4 links enough to find out if that was an actual problem.

Either way, I don't have time or money now to ditch the leaf springs. I want to eventually, but I'll have to make due for now.
-

slowride

Quote from: JohnW on January 19, 2014, 12:23:12 AM
Isn't there still a little bind due to the geometry? Do the helms reduce it or do they eliminate it?

The Watts link should fix the instability problem and make it handle decent enough until I can afford and find time to custom build the rear suspension. I have enough on my plate with the turbo swap.

Just got the isolators off of the leafs and the 2nd leaf is split in the middle on one side. That explains why the car was leaning a slight bit. I need to talk to the local spring place on Monday and decide if I'm going to rebuild using the main leafs or just go with new ones.
Because Heims are spherical, they move in multiple axis. Think about all the different movements suspension go through in a simple act like one wheel compressing. The wheel moves up, but because you have a shackle behind the wheel, it creates an inherent bind in the axle housing itself. The angle of the spring perches change relative to each other as each wheel now arcs independently on the front spring mounts. The pinion angle also changes, as well as the relative axle center shifting (which will also happen with a Watts or panhard).
What I like about 4 links is you can use the spring rates and shocks to tune your suspension, not just compensate for binding. No system is perfect, but if you can eliminate inherent defects rather than fight them, you're closer to optimal. 

JohnW

Quote from: 82expghost on January 19, 2014, 08:56:28 AM
i run the 150 landrums and love it, they are on the stiff side, so for a daily and street, the 100 would be fine, also think about what will be in the car, if you put a sound system in the back or your mother in law, you might want the 125, or stick with the 100 and put goooooood shocks on it, i personally like the pro stock shocks (gold ones) but you need boots to keep the dirt off the pistons, they are tough shock and will stiffen it with out the springs, another thing is one day you might want to get a newer style limited slip, that makes a huge difference also on handling, you know when your hammering into a turn and the rear starts to give and next it slides the opposite ? limited slip will let you push and when it gives, it stays side ways till you get traction and go straight, probably go pan hard, not a lot of room for a watts if you go 8 or 8.8 rear. landrum makes new springs for the front too any length you want and rate about 55 a piece

Everything I'm doing with the leaf springs I'm doing is because I ripped it all out to put a 3.73 LS Explorer 8.8 under it. The Landrums claim they're for lighter weight cars than a stock Pinto going by the specs, you have no issues with them on the street?

Quote from: dick1172762 on January 19, 2014, 09:56:16 AM
I agree 100%. The tried and true set up under the Pinto's is very tuneable with just a little work and money. Most of the stuff needs to be replaced anyway. KYB shocks are no more than any other good shock. 1" front bar can be found on some V8 Mustang II in junk yards. Rear lowering blocks can be made at home or bought from Racer Walsh. With just those few mod you will have a car that handle's better than 99.9% of the drivers that own Pintos. Wheels and tires are the biggest and best change you can make to any car you want to go fast in. Watts linkage???? Why? First of all, you have a uni-body car with no real frame. Second of all they hang so low when made right, you'll rip the thing off the first time you go off road, and you will go off road if you try to be a "boy racer" in any car. I've been in this game for 60 years. My new Suburban  handles better than a 69/70 Mustang did when new. All you really need to do is copy what has been done to the new breed of cars to go fast. A Pinto will NEVER be as good as a new anycar. But you can get close if you try.

I'm building a frame into the car. Going to start with subframe connectors that extend the front frame rails back, then later building a simple box tubing frame just inboard the stock rear rails. That way I have way more solid mounts for suspension components and a fuel cell, can get rid of the stock rails that have surface rust in places that are hard to reach, and the whole shell will be extremely stiff.

I was already leaning towards KYB shocks and going to grab a 79 wagon swaybar from my buddy's junkyard. The wagon ones are 1" like the MII right?

I have a pair of 17x8 Mustang GT wheels and I'm trying to find 2 other wheels to go with them. I already have Toyo Proxes in a few different sizes I snagged from work when customers replaced decent tires.
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dick1172762

Quote from: Srt on January 19, 2014, 03:10:56 AM
i used some high rate coils in mine, probably around 350# or so and some koni's set soft with a 1" bar.


at the rear i had a guy i knew who raced an alfa, and also ran a very big leaf spring shop, make me up some mono-leaf rears.


they were very supple. ride was so improved over stock leafs with blocks and rear axle control especially under hard braking was very much improved.


car was very 'tossable' if you know what i mean and not too unreasonably stiff on the street.


now that i'm older i would most certainly go softer on the front and use bars & alignment to control the suspension.


if it's a dual purpose car just experiment , you will find what works and what doesn't.


the solid axle / rear leaf system is tried and true and is very adaptable at a HUGE cost savings over other 'specialized' set-ups.
I agree 100%. The tried and true set up under the Pinto's is very tuneable with just a little work and money. Most of the stuff needs to be replaced anyway. KYB shocks are no more than any other good shock. 1" front bar can be found on some V8 Mustang II in junk yards. Rear lowering blocks can be made at home or bought from Racer Walsh. With just those few mod you will have a car that handle's better than 99.9% of the drivers that own Pintos. Wheels and tires are the biggest and best change you can make to any car you want to go fast in. Watts linkage???? Why? First of all, you have a uni-body car with no real frame. Second of all they hang so low when made right, you'll rip the thing off the first time you go off road, and you will go off road if you try to be a "boy racer" in any car. I've been in this game for 60 years. My new Suburban  handles better than a 69/70 Mustang did when new. All you really need to do is copy what has been done to the new breed of cars to go fast. A Pinto will NEVER be as good as a new anycar. But you can get close if you try.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

82expghost

i run the 150 landrums and love it, they are on the stiff side, so for a daily and street, the 100 would be fine, also think about what will be in the car, if you put a sound system in the back or your mother in law, you might want the 125, or stick with the 100 and put goooooood shocks on it, i personally like the pro stock shocks (gold ones) but you need boots to keep the dirt off the pistons, they are tough shock and will stiffen it with out the springs, another thing is one day you might want to get a newer style limited slip, that makes a huge difference also on handling, you know when your hammering into a turn and the rear starts to give and next it slides the opposite ? limited slip will let you push and when it gives, it stays side ways till you get traction and go straight, probably go pan hard, not a lot of room for a watts if you go 8 or 8.8 rear. landrum makes new springs for the front too any length you want and rate about 55 a piece
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

Srt

i used some high rate coils in mine, probably around 350# or so and some koni's set soft with a 1" bar.


at the rear i had a guy i knew who raced an alfa, and also ran a very big leaf spring shop, make me up some mono-leaf rears.


they were very supple. ride was so improved over stock leafs with blocks and rear axle control especially under hard braking was very much improved.


car was very 'tossable' if you know what i mean and not too unreasonably stiff on the street.


now that i'm older i would most certainly go softer on the front and use bars & alignment to control the suspension.


if it's a dual purpose car just experiment , you will find what works and what doesn't.


the solid axle / rear leaf system is tried and true and is very adaptable at a HUGE cost savings over other 'specialized' set-ups.
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

JohnW

Quote from: slowride on January 17, 2014, 01:19:08 PM
Well aware of binding in 4 link setups with bushings but I use heims. My point about leaf binding was in pivoting (compression) on one side rather than equal compression on each side. Think about the shear created on leaf spring bolts and bushings during articulation and it's a wonder they handle as well as they do. That's not even addressing the instability of an leaf spring axle with a side load (as opposed to a watts link or panhard).
Isn't there still a little bind due to the geometry? Do the helms reduce it or do they eliminate it?

The Watts link should fix the instability problem and make it handle decent enough until I can afford and find time to custom build the rear suspension. I have enough on my plate with the turbo swap.

Just got the isolators off of the leafs and the 2nd leaf is split in the middle on one side. That explains why the car was leaning a slight bit. I need to talk to the local spring place on Monday and decide if I'm going to rebuild using the main leafs or just go with new ones.
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slowride

Oh, and there are times when you just have to compromise (my '31 build)


slowride

Well aware of binding in 4 link setups with bushings but I use heims. My point about leaf binding was in pivoting (compression) on one side rather than equal compression on each side. Think about the shear created on leaf spring bolts and bushings during articulation and it's a wonder they handle as well as they do. That's not even addressing the instability of an leaf spring axle with a side load (as opposed to a watts link or panhard).

JohnW

Leaf springs have a certain amount of side-to-side flex and binding. I want to go to a Watts link/torque arm setup in the future with 2 lower control arms and coilovers. For now I'm going to just leave the leafs and add a Watts link when I can.

My leafs are in kinda rough shape and I agree with not wanting to go too stiff, so I'm really leaning towards the 104lb ones. If they were in better shape I'd just leave them. Can anyone confirm that the stocks are around 80lb?

slowride: Are you aware that 4 link setups have inherent bind as well? 3 link or a torque arm setup would eliminate that, but with stiff bushings in a triangulated 4 link there will still be bind.
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slowride

I understand using leaf springs is easier, but if I were to put out that much effort to tune a suspension, I would probably go individual coilovers with a 4 link rear. The inherent bind in coil spring suspensions throughout articulation bothers me for all but normal street driving. You would likely have to sub the rear, but you would then have maximum adjustability.

dick1172762

I'm from the old school of Herb Adams. Stock springs / big bars / good shocks. At least this set up will drive ok on the street. Stiff springs are great on a table top and that all. Do a you-tube for automotive hill climbs and you will see what race car springs look like on the street. Pretty bad. On three wheels, on two wheels, off the ground with all four wheels. You get the idea. If you want a corner carver and drive it to work too, you've got to use a little race car and use a little street car, mix the two together and what will come out is a nice car that even the wife will ride in  / or drive her self. After you get it up and running you can tweak it all you want to. All poly bushings up front helps a lot. It'll make the front end like new. My way is the cheap way. If you have lots of money, take it to Herb Adams and enjoy. He really knows his stuff. BTW a spring is a spring is a spring. Coil overs are no better than what you have now. They came about because of tube frames. Much easyer to build that than the old way. NASCAR is still using the same set up that Ford made in 1960 on their big cars. Your front in is as good as you will ever need. BTW I've got a 80 Pinto corner carver that is a low rider boy racer. No turbo, just old school to the max. My two cents worth.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.