Mini Classifieds

Pinto Parts Windows & Windshield

Date: 11/12/2020 08:28 pm
1978 Pinto Wagon V8
Date: 04/28/2023 03:26 pm
1973 Pinto Pangra

Date: 07/08/2019 10:09 pm
1973 Interior parts wanted
Date: 01/02/2017 11:02 pm
Wanted 1973 Ford right fender
Date: 06/03/2017 08:50 pm
1980 Pinto taillights
Date: 12/26/2017 03:48 pm
Sunroof shade
Date: 06/19/2019 01:33 pm
77 Cruising Wagon Front Seats
Date: 04/12/2017 12:37 pm
1971 Pinto Do It Yourself Manual

Date: 03/06/2017 01:19 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 1,137
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 774
  • Total: 774
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

how to degree my cam

Started by rowdyrunabout, March 06, 2015, 07:11:03 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

82expghost

my half inch statement was more or less an exaderation, but the head that iv seen milled, the machininst had to redrill the intake and exhaust bolt holes and move them up. and the valves where almost flush with bottom of head, when he does mine for a N/A project, i will post pics, but thats miles down the roads.
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

Wittsend

Are you sure it wasn't .050 (fifty thousandths)? .500 would be half an inch. I'd think head bolts would bottom out, water jackets would open and if it ever sealed the compression would be so high (well, before the valves bent or went through the pistons) that the car wouldn't even crank over.

On level ground or slightly down hill how does the car perform?  My "retarded" Mazda engine seemed close to normal, but the slightest inclination would just bog the car. Then as I stated above at around 4,500 RPM it noticeably improved - at least back towards "normal."  I'm still thinking timing is the issue.

Question of the day: Are you sure the throttle blades are opening up properly? Just throwing things out there that are simple, but often overlooked.

dick1172762

At around .130 off a 2.3L head you will start to get into the intake mounting bolts and have to stop cutting. Heads are plenty strong to do this. Racer Walsh said that for ever .040 removed, it would raise the compression ratio one point. Cheap HP but only with cam / intake / exhaust mods. Do it by its self with a 100% stock motor will not help and will just blow head gaskets due to the stock cams lack of over lap to bleed off the pressure in the cylinders.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY removes 1/2" off a head, 1/8" is a large amount.

He is correct as to the power reference there.

When degreeing one of these gut a hydro lifter and fill the operating metering space with a washer to make a simple solid lifter. Read off the valve retainer top and take rocker arm ratio into account for cam lift but backwards the numbers.

This sounds like one of those examples that is going to be real hard to account for the problem, there are just so many different things and possibly combo of several to make problems. I used to see it in cars that came into our shop all the time. You could find so many things you couldn't count but all appeared to be minor but with a new engine they were all gone and car ran like a totally different animal. Even if the owner seemed to know what he was talking about and doing. No insult intended there of course, it's just that reality can be hard to put logic to.

82expghost

for a reference,
a 77 with everything in tip top shape, with all stock parts should light the rear untill only one is spinning and when rolling, chirp into second, and thats even with the 2.72 rear gear, or 2.92 cant remember

find out how much the head was milled, the shop near me removes almost 1/2 an inch, thats more than a degree or two on the cam wheel, i would watch the lobes when cranking by hand to figure out if your in the ball park, also it will let you know if you have gone too far because you will feel by hand if you start tapping a valve.

as for carbs, four barrels are too much unless you substain 4000+ all day long and dont need to stop and go, a 350 2bbl is almost still to much, i personaly found the autolite carbs on stock ford 60s 289 or 302 are the best, and the jets are super easy to change without spilling gas or taking the carb off the car
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

78_starsky

hi,   I don't know a thing about a 2.3, except that ive junked one once. 

Been following this thread though, and started to think in a different direction. was this car sitting for a long time before you put an engine in it? what is the back story? have you drove the car prior to the engine going in?

I am wondering if you have sticking back & front brake calipers? sticking parking brake?

did a shop build the motor, or did you?   if a shop did can't they make good for the work and be accountable for the service?  i am guessing a shop did, by you saying they put performance cam.  at the moment you running the 2 barrel stuff  or the 4?  and you have checked everywhere for vacuum leaks?

Wouldn't a 2.3 being off the cam (timing) ping, bog and back fire giving you a noticeable problem?   

Lastly, (as i said i never drove a 2.3 before) but what was your or is your comparison of the performance to?  are you going from a charger to a pinto? I am not sure how your car should perform from a standing acceleration, and is it as it should be?

cheers

HOSS429

i dont think you need to worry about degreeing your cam as much as you need to simply make sure it is set on the correct tooth .. your car will run to some extent with the belt being off a tooth or two in either direction .. if you know how to remove the belt then do so and without turning the engine rotate the cam sprocket one tooth in either direction and see what the results are ..if it get worse then go  two teeth in the other direction .. you will have to advance or retard the distributor accordingly ..  degreeing a cam is a simple hop up process for an already top performing engine ..

Wittsend

Well, as I said it is very similar to my retarded came timing experience. One thing that was noticeable for me was about 4,500 RPM there was a definitive increase in power - but that is characteristic of retarded timing - more power on the top end.

  Ideally you would find TDC with a dial indicator on the piston and check that with the mark on the pulley/balancer.  I guess if you used a piston stop you might be able to eyeball it with veneer calipers.  Frankly I do not have a answer for dealing with the hydraulic lifters as they are oriented in the 2.3 regarding cam lift. I've done it with a V-8 and just used the edge of the lifter. But in these OHC engines the lifter is a fulcrum point and any pressure will bleed the lifter unless you use one of those super soft "checking" springs.

I'll just keep throwing things out there..., A Holley with a defective power valve?

rowdyrunabout

The car had no engine or tranny. Found a 79 2.3 and had it built. I have a speedway 3" header down to 2.5" all the way out. Running original 13s. Stock rear end (76 pinto). At take off the car has nothing. I can tach it up dump the clutch and hardly bark the tire. I think it should burn the tire. It does move from gear to gear, but slowly. When I get on the expressway ramp, I have to floor it to keep a moped off by rear. Yes, It may not fall flat, but it is slow.

Wittsend

When you say the car "has not run very good" can you elaborate.

Are you saying it ran better stock before you had this work done? Or, are you saying you have an expectation that it perform better than stock - and it has not met that goal?

Is it an acceleration issue from a standing start, or is it lack of power (falling flat) after the car gets going?

What size tires are you running and what is the rear end ratio?  I've seen people have a sub 3.00 ratio, add 15" or 16" wheels/tires and wonder why the car B-O-G's.

Assuming the cam timing is correct (we don't know, but are assuming) then I might look at an exhaust restriction.

amc49

Compression is OK. A half tooth error when wanting to degree a cam is a lightyears off error. As well you have no idea of where true TDC is, the damper could be wrong there as well.

rowdyrunabout

ok, timing marks are just about perfect. Maybe 1/2 a tooth off or less. compression ... 175 to 180 on all 4.

Wittsend

What you are stating sounds like the cam is retarded.  I just went through this with my daily driver Mazda Protege. In my case the crank balancer bolt had loosened to allow the balancer and lower cam sprocket to bang around and elongate the key slots and even damage the key itself.  This car also has crank triggered ignition so not only the cam, but the the ignition was retarded.  I kept getting frustrated because the car seemed increasingly slower and it wasn't until it got so loose (sounding like a bad rod bearing) that I was able to find the problem.

I doubt this is your problem, but retarded timing is retarded timing. It is possible that the cam timing was incorrect upon installation. On the 2.3 you can compensate the ignition by advancing the distributor.  That takes care of the ignition, but the cam timing would still be off. I would remove the cam covers and see if the timing marks are aligned on the upper and lower sprockets. It has been a while since I did a 2.3, but my recollection is that there is a plastic alignment marker that can be rather ambiguous.

Don't just indiscriminately advance the cam timing because "I think so." It may well be correct and you run the risk of bending valves or putting holes in pistons. Lastly, if in fact the cam timing is off, and does get corrected, then you will also have to readjust the ignition timing also.

amc49



   
   

CAM FORD 4CYL 2.3 274P

Strong street performer. Strong bottom end and mid range. Plus a good top end increase

    Specifications
    Technical Documents

    CC:
        2300
    Make:
        Ford
    Part Name:
        Engine Camshaft
    Advance:
        4
    Application:
        1974-1987 2300CC /2.3 OHC 4CYL
    Brand:
        Erson Cams
    Cam Type:
        HYDRAULIC FLAT TAPPET
    Duration @ .050:
        212/212
    Duration Advertised:
        274/274
    Grind Number:
        274P
    Gross Lift:
        .450/.450
    Lobe Center:
        110
    RPM Range:
        1500-4500
    Valve Lash:
        .000/.000

Cam should not run that bad, it would even work pretty good on an ATX. Might want to run a compression check just to see if motor is rock solid, if not all the part adding in the world won't help you. The valve job alone could easily kill you. The valve springs must have guaranteed clearances with that lift too. Retainer to follower, coil bind, retainer to guide top/seal, the like. The followers have to have clearance at the lifter collapsed too, if not the valve can be slightly held open and kiss all performance gone, gone, gone..................

rowdyrunabout

OK thanks. Yes the head was milled. I think he wrote it on the sheet in the garage. I'll have to look for it. I believe he took extra off to try to give me the most compression he could. I have a stock 4 speed. The cam is 274P,  rpm range 1500-4500, lobe sep 110, advance 4, advertised duration 274. OH, my timing at full advance 42! I'm sure that's not good.

Pintosopher

Was the head machined on the gasket surface?, if so, you'll need to get a Adjustable Cam sprocket to properly degree the cam. If your car has an automatic, be careful about wrong cam profile , it can make a slow car even slower.
More details would help diagnose the issue.  :)
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

rowdyrunabout

My pinto (79 2.3) has not run very good since it was built. The machine shop said try an aftermarket intake, then a new carburetor 4 barrel, then 2 barrel. The car just doesn't have any real acceleration. And it should with what they supposedly did to it. Now I find out (after another wasted $800) that they put an aftermarket cam in it and did not degree the cam. So things look right, but it's not. The tech from erson cams will not call me back to answer my questions. The cam has a 4 degree advance. How should I go about fixing it? Buy an adjustable cam gear and guess or take it apart? Another idea?