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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

2.8l V6 HEADERS

Started by 75BOBCAT, November 05, 2010, 06:00:05 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

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75BOBCAT

I'm 17 and clearly someone needs to do their research before they say a header won't increase horsepower.  My stock header has 2 restrictors on it that aren't nessiscary for making power or efficency.  Horsepower is the ability to get air in and out, so since I have an aftermarket air filter assembly and breather cap it would be in my interest to have a header.  Since I cut out the rusted muffler I've noticed a horsepower gain, and since I've purchased and installed the aftermarket parts i've noticed moreee gain.  So in my opinion, with a header and and y pipe in the dual exhaust with no restrictions, it would be making twice the horsepower I've already achived.  Thanks for the info on where I can find a header, and thank you for the good laugh whoever said it wouldn't add power.  :tgif:
Don't F with American Pride

Pintopower

I know very little about the aftermarket availability of pistons for the 2.8. My thoughts are to start with how the engine was designed to be, and that means looking across the pond. Find out the differences (why the US 2.8 has so much lower compression than the euro) and then see what needs to be done. If it is possible to get a piston with a bigger dome here in the States, then I would do it. Make sure the compression isn't over 10.5 though, then it becomes un-drivable. Unless you want a race car, take it easy. You will be amazed at the top end that you will get after just a dyno tune. My Bobcat was a different car after I got it tuned.

Good luck
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

rctinker

Qoute by Pintopower:(As for a bigger piston, you would be better off with a euro one. I don't know what the cost is but bumping up compression as opposed to increasing displacement would be better. I mild cam would be best as well.)

So are you talking a piston with a bigger dome? Or actually getting a set of euro pistons?
Thanks, Tink
1977 Crusin Wagon when I was 16

Pintopower

I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

popbumper

Quote from: Pintopower on November 18, 2010, 03:44:09 PM
Chris,

Nothing like getting tested. Well I started it so here goes. This is from my experience, never mind that I am a thermodynamic engineer and work on ProEngineer with FloEFD thermal software.

The 2.3 is a different beast than the 2.8.

The 2.3's displacement is pretty big for a 4 cylinder globally speaking. I have a fiat with a 850 CC 4 cyl so you can see what I'm talking about. It also has a greater stroke and higher capacity of air that needs to be removed where the 2.8 has a large bore but a tiny stroke (which give it the ability so wind up like an formula one car, relativly speaking) and has smaller bursts of air. Now the 2.3's exhaust manifold is an excellent unit. The ports are a bit tiny BUT it is essentially a cast header (unlike the 2.0). The 2.8 manifolds are not bad but certainly nothing like the 2.3's swooping shape.

Onto the 2.3 head work. Here is what I have done to my Pangra's in term motor (until i finish its 2.3 turbo).
It is a 74 block with a 79 head. I don't know if there are any differences but I am just stating the facts. I popped in zero deck pistons in the block and milled the head by 120 thou. This made the chamber 52 (I think) CC + the felpro gasket which was 12 CC. Then I clayed the valves to make sure there was clearance (i calculated it before but I wanted to make sure before I ruined everything). This bumped up the compression to 10.9 on paper but 10.6 in reality. Originally it was just under 7.0:1.

Then I bought a basic stage one cam from Esslinger. More lift and duration(i forget the numbers). It is nothing radical but i just wanted something better. I did not do any porting since I ate so much off the head already. When you mill the head, you have changed the geometry of the timing belt. This means that you need an adjustable cam pulley. Mine is advanced 4 degrees.

Once done, I knew that the stock HP at the flywheel was around 79 or so in 1974. When I had the stock autolite tuned (at a smog shop) and the distributor curved, the car had 105 hp at the rear wheels! That means about 130 at the flywheel! This all cost me about $400. By the way, I installed a cat on it (because they are good for the environment, period) and its CO2 output was nearly unreadable and the HC was at 18 ppm. Legal (if this car needed a smog which it does not) is 250 ppm.

A header would probably bump up the hp another 3-5 hp but this car has A/C so I do not want further heat loading. Once the motor needs more fuel, then I would say holley 350. I really stay away from 4bbls unless you have serious engine work and a monster cam. Then you are in the 200 hp range and the car is almost unstreetable.

So yea, milling the head is ok but different pistons is the right way. I take it easy with my stuff so it was fine for me. You don't need to rebuild the bottom end unless its history us unknown.

Best bang? Mill the head, tune the carb perfectly and curve the distributor. I have since ditched the points for an MSD unit (which I hate but gave the car noticeable gain in power), accel 8.8 mm plug wires, and a few other bits.

Moral of the story is, make your car run cleaner, more efficiently and tune it perfectly. Just doing that you will see massive increases in power. Headers, carbs, intakes are all things you get to AFTER you do the hard stuff.

Here's how you know if you did it right: You will get more power, better mileage and your car won't stink like raw fuel like 90% of cars at car shows.

A lot of info there, hope I answered everything. Back to work I go.

Alberto:

  I never had an opportunity to thank you for your inputs. That was very helpful information and a good roadmap to begin with. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your experience here!

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

Pintopower

Just so we are clear, I am by no means an expert on the 2.8, I just have studied the thermodynamic properties of the standard IC engine and have come up with 150 HP at 5600 at the rear wheels on my 2.8.

First things first, the 2.8 is a European engine. It does not act like a US...er... anything. It is a high revving, short stroke, 60 degree V motor. We are used to seeing long stroke, low revving 90 degree V's. You will never be able to do an burnout with a 2.8 easily; it's simply not in its power band yet. You will get the power on the road in the high RPM range. My car is thrilled to be at 4000-5000 on the race track. On a drag strip, where off the line power is needed, you time it with a calendar.

Here is what you do to make your 2.8 happy.

Dual Exhaust. Period. It needs it. Badly. Be careful though, the engine needs to have its own exhaust that unbolts like the stock one in order to allow for the engine, trans and exhaust to be pulled like the stock set up. If not, engine and trans pulling is a nightmare (again, experience talking here). It needs to be a two part system (you will understand once you see how the stock y-pipe to exhaust works on a single exhaust V6). Don't forget about the rear of the car. The gas tank is off set so you need to make sure that the driver's side is done correctly. I do not recommend to cut the exhaust at the  axle as at an idle the fumes go right in the  car (again, experience).

Cleaning all the ports is an excellent move. Don't port them, the walls are WAY too.

As for a bigger piston, you would be better off with a euro one. I don't know what the cost is but bumping up compression as opposed to increasing displacement would be better. I mild cam would be best as well.

Do not mill the heads. That will change the geometry of the head/intake/block. Shave a few off if you have a warp but that's all.

As for the Carb, get a Motorcraft 2150 and have it gone through by someone GOOD (if not yourself). If you cant find one, send it to Pony Carburetors. Those guys are magicians. I am not a Holley fan in the least, nor to I like anything other than Webers or my personal favorite (not joking either), the most advanced and spectacular carb in history, the 2700 VV (never mind that they don't work).

All of this effort has gone into my 2.8. You want streetable? Well this car has 105K miles on the clock since the rebuild. It has been on race tracks and roads. It has A/C and PS. Gets 28 mpg on the highway and passes California State emissions testing. It has 150 hp at the rear wheels. You want streetable, here's what I have to say:



http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2871374725_3239d7b8db.jpg

Fun are reliable.
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

rctinker

Ok, like you said you started it, lol  :o .

What would be, in your opiuion, the break down of the best way to build a good meaty 2.8, nothing exotic, just a good streetable power producer.

ie: cam, headwork, bigger pistons(.30 or .40 over) you said a four barrel would be just a waste, so keep the 2 barrel and go with a ????? carb ect ect ect.

I just dont want to mess around with putting in a V8 in, when i think I can get what I want out of this V6, I just dont have the breakdown of what needs to be done to the V6. So I am reaching out to all the people who have the knowledge, and asking them to throw me a bone please  :o .

Thanks, Tink
1977 Crusin Wagon when I was 16

Pintopower

Chris,

Nothing like getting tested. Well I started it so here goes. This is from my experience, never mind that I am a thermodynamic engineer and work on ProEngineer with FloEFD thermal software.

The 2.3 is a different beast than the 2.8.

The 2.3's displacement is pretty big for a 4 cylinder globally speaking. I have a fiat with a 850 CC 4 cyl so you can see what I'm talking about. It also has a greater stroke and higher capacity of air that needs to be removed where the 2.8 has a large bore but a tiny stroke (which give it the ability so wind up like an formula one car, relativly speaking) and has smaller bursts of air. Now the 2.3's exhaust manifold is an excellent unit. The ports are a bit tiny BUT it is essentially a cast header (unlike the 2.0). The 2.8 manifolds are not bad but certainly nothing like the 2.3's swooping shape.

Onto the 2.3 head work. Here is what I have done to my Pangra's in term motor (until i finish its 2.3 turbo).
It is a 74 block with a 79 head. I don't know if there are any differences but I am just stating the facts. I popped in zero deck pistons in the block and milled the head by 120 thou. This made the chamber 52 (I think) CC + the felpro gasket which was 12 CC. Then I clayed the valves to make sure there was clearance (i calculated it before but I wanted to make sure before I ruined everything). This bumped up the compression to 10.9 on paper but 10.6 in reality. Originally it was just under 7.0:1.

Then I bought a basic stage one cam from Esslinger. More lift and duration(i forget the numbers). It is nothing radical but i just wanted something better. I did not do any porting since I ate so much off the head already. When you mill the head, you have changed the geometry of the timing belt. This means that you need an adjustable cam pulley. Mine is advanced 4 degrees.

Once done, I knew that the stock HP at the flywheel was around 79 or so in 1974. When I had the stock autolite tuned (at a smog shop) and the distributor curved, the car had 105 hp at the rear wheels! That means about 130 at the flywheel! This all cost me about $400. By the way, I installed a cat on it (because they are good for the environment, period) and its CO2 output was nearly unreadable and the HC was at 18 ppm. Legal (if this car needed a smog which it does not) is 250 ppm.

A header would probably bump up the hp another 3-5 hp but this car has A/C so I do not want further heat loading. Once the motor needs more fuel, then I would say holley 350. I really stay away from 4bbls unless you have serious engine work and a monster cam. Then you are in the 200 hp range and the car is almost unstreetable.

So yea, milling the head is ok but different pistons is the right way. I take it easy with my stuff so it was fine for me. You don't need to rebuild the bottom end unless its history us unknown.

Best bang? Mill the head, tune the carb perfectly and curve the distributor. I have since ditched the points for an MSD unit (which I hate but gave the car noticeable gain in power), accel 8.8 mm plug wires, and a few other bits.

Moral of the story is, make your car run cleaner, more efficiently and tune it perfectly. Just doing that you will see massive increases in power. Headers, carbs, intakes are all things you get to AFTER you do the hard stuff.

Here's how you know if you did it right: You will get more power, better mileage and your car won't stink like raw fuel like 90% of cars at car shows.

A lot of info there, hope I answered everything. Back to work I go.

   
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

popbumper

Pintopower:

  So let me ask this, then, from your analysis. I have a stock 2.3L with no upgrades. If I were to do head work ONLY (port/polish/oversized valves, better cam), but leave the stock carb/intake/exhaust in place, would I see an appreciable increase in power just from the head work?

What value then would a change in intake and carb provide?

How about headers?

Shave the head for better compression?

Knowing that the bottom end of the stock motor is reasonably robust, is there really any reason in this scenario to rebuild/upgrade the pistons/crank/etc.?

Trying to get the "best bang for the buck", don't want to spend a fortune on the motor but would like to see horsepower gains above the stock 86 HP.

Thanks!

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

Pintopower

RC,

I agree with Pintosopher. Bolting on headers doesn't always give you power, nor will bolting on a 4bbl. The root problem with a Cologne V6 in the US is that they have little compression. If you look up the numbers from a euro Cologne V6, you will find that they have 50% more HP in some cases (make sure you are comparing like figures, ie. net to net or gross to gross). The reason for this is not a holley 4 bbl or headers, it is compression, cam and timing. A bigger carb will burn more fuel but not give you a proportional gain in HP. Power is all about efficiency. The more efficiently an engine runs, the more HP is produced. Here is an example.

I have two Fiat Stradas. They are identical, including engine type, 1500CC 138A SOHC I4.
One is a US model with US cam, compression (7.1:1), carb (weber 28 dmtr).
I also imported one from Italy with all the euro engine bits: cam, compression (10.2:1), carb (weber 30/32). The both have the same intakes and exhaust manifolds, the same blocks and cranks, both have cats and stock exhaust.

Here are the numbers. Federal Spec Strada: 60 HP, 54 LBFT Torque.
Euro Spec Strada: 110 HP, 101 LBFT Torque.

Those numbers are astounding (Mind you, Fiat engines are more akin to the Cologne 2.8 than anything else Ford has made. Ford used Lancia's V4 to build the Cologne V4 which turned into the V6. It is the Italians that pioneered the V4 & V6 so the cologne had a lot of distinctly European traits).

If I bolted a header to the federal car, there would be no significant delta. On the Euro one, it would go up about 15 %. The reason for this increase is that the car needs to breathe more. The federal one does not because it has no compression, just like the Federal Cologne motor.

If you want HP, you need to do REAL engine work. Change the pistons, cam and timing. You will not need a 4bbl. Those are misconceptions of the V8 community. A holley 350 is perfect. Once you do that, THEN you can consider headers. Until then, you are burning fuel and money to get less HP. Trust me, been there, done that.

Go on to British Capri and Taunus forums and see what they are doing. Simple as that.

I know that is not the simple or cheap news you wanted to hear but it's the thermodynamic truth.
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Pintosopher

Quote from: rctinker on November 18, 2010, 12:42:56 AM
So your opoiun is that headers on a 2.8 actually robs horse power? What about putting on a 4 barrel intake and a holey 390? Have heard that Aerostar vans with the 2.8 have sorta header type manifolds that might work, just looking to dump some poundage with the exhaust manifolds. Would really like to beef this 2.8 up some. Any advice would be awsome.
Thanks, Tink
RC,
Alberto's position on the headers could be based on the premise that a Smog legal V6 2.8 in a pinto stock chassis, is a no gain situation. I have tried headers on a stock Small Block Chevy with a 2 BBL carb and seen little gain. However, if the engine is choked down on the carb, manifold, or heads, and you swap out or modify these areas, look out!
The V6 Ford Capri guys know all about this, but their cars can acommodate a different header Profile.

My 2 cents..

Pintosopher
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

Check my Pinto Poems out...

rctinker

So your opoiun is that headers on a 2.8 actually robs horse power? What about putting on a 4 barrel intake and a holey 390? Have heard that Aerostar vans with the 2.8 have sorta header type manifolds that might work, just looking to dump some poundage with the exhaust manifolds. Would really like to beef this 2.8 up some. Any advice would be awsome.
Thanks, Tink
1977 Crusin Wagon when I was 16

Pintopower

I have a set of Hooker super comps. They are with Skunky right now getting remade. He plans on making half a dozen. Email him for info. I still say that they are garbage on a 2.8 with US compression. My manifolds made 10 hp more than after when I installed the hookers. I have said this a million times, when your car starts to over heat standing still and you loose bottom end, you will toss them just like I did.

Email Paul at:
skunkyp56@comcast.net

Good luck and I will say I told you so.
I have many Pintos, I like them....
#1. 1979 Wagon V6 Restored
#2. 1977 Wagon V6 Restored
#3. 1980 Sedan I4 Original
#4. 1974 Pangra Wagon I4 Turbo
#5. 1980 Wagon I4 Restored
#6. 1976 Bobcat Squire Hatchback (Restoring)
...Like i said, I like them.
...and I have 4 Fiats.

Norman Bagi

Just keep looking, I got a set I purchased along with the entire parts kit to rebuild the engine.  I am going to do it this winter. I hope you find them, just keep looking, found mine on e-bay.

dick1172762

They show up on e-bay about once a year. LOL
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

75bobcatv6

I'm Still looking my self for a set of those but dont know that I will ever get to put them in

Quote from: 75BOBCAT on November 05, 2010, 06:00:05 PM
I'm sick of searching for a set of headers for my Bobcat, it's frustrating knowing that my exhaust is still restricted by the heat shield.  I recently purchased and applied some goodies for her, clearly a header would just knock my socks off if I could put one on.  As far as I'm concerned, the 2.8l came from the factory in Germany and people tear them out of mustang II's for 400 horsepower builds.  I've heard of 1 individual that salvaged an engine from a stang and swapped it into an old cougar, sick results.  Where are the headers someone please tell me?

rctinker

Let me know if you find some!  :o  Guy I talk to on a mustang page said many years ago he put a set of hooker headers on a 2.8 pinto he had. I have looked and have found nothing.
Tink
1977 Crusin Wagon when I was 16

Fred Morgan

Check with pintopower  Alberto there is a chance he could have.  Fred   :)
Fred Morgan- Missing from us...
January 20th 1951-January 6th 2014

Beloved PCCA Parts Supplier and Friend to many.
Post your well wishes,
http://www.fordpinto.com/in-memory-of-our-fallen-pinto-heros/fred-morgan-23434/

75BOBCAT

I'm sick of searching for a set of headers for my Bobcat, it's frustrating knowing that my exhaust is still restricted by the heat shield.  I recently purchased and applied some goodies for her, clearly a header would just knock my socks off if I could put one on.  As far as I'm concerned, the 2.8l came from the factory in Germany and people tear them out of mustang II's for 400 horsepower builds.  I've heard of 1 individual that salvaged an engine from a stang and swapped it into an old cougar, sick results.  Where are the headers someone please tell me?
Don't F with American Pride