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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

My turbo Pinto

Started by Pinto Pro, October 19, 2007, 12:48:10 AM

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Pinto Pro

I have the stock Pinto M/C on it right now, but you would be better to use one from a Mustang SVO as they had discs in the rear so they are valved right.

Bigtimmay

Hey what master cylinder are you running with your rear discs?
I gunna be putting a TC 8.8 with discs under my bobcat and i want to make sure i have a master cylinder that will work with it.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Pinto Pro

Well, what happened was the fuel pump was going out and we did'nt know it...yet. They were cranking the fuel pressure up because it was'nt supplying the needed amount.

After they had the pressure cranked up, and trying to run the injectors at full capacity, it was still failing.
So I was like "what the F"??...I took the fuel pump off and took it apart....the magnets that are expoxied to the main case, came loose and they were spinning with the electric armature!!

Sh!t!!...so I tried to expoxy them back in place, but it did'nt work still.
So I bought another pump (expensive!!...Aeromotive A-1000), and put it on.

Now the fuel pressure was way up there, so we had to lower it. But I could'nt get it go lower than 60 PSI...and I had it all the way backed off!!
Again...what the F??

So I investigated the FP regulator, and it was fine, but as a precaution, I put another brand new one on, and still I could'nt get the pressure down enough. So I had to run a 2nd fuel return line so it would bleed off enough fuel and pressure to get it down into the 40's :mad:

Right now, the injectors need to be reset, as well as almost everything else because I have not yet been back to the dyno shop to get it dialed in.

I was busy putting in the rollbar and fabbing the rear pan and tray for the tank and battery.
This shop knows what they are doing, they specialize in Micro Tech systems and tuning, so I know Im in good shape there, I just gotta get all this other crap in order so I can get it back over there!!

OhSix9

sorry for the long delay in responding. have been out of town on a job and managed to leave my laptop at the g/f 's place so i have been disconnected for a while.

Now that we have an accurate account of the sensors this thing is using we can make some further educated guesses as to what is going on. whether it is on the crank or in the dissy the unit is still using a hall effect sensor to determine crank position

without the o2 sensor in the system it never switches from open loop mode so it is always running on the software maps and no fuel corrections will be made during part throttle operations.   not having a sensor present may be causing issues with the system.  so try a o2 sensor eliminator wired to the output.  usually they consist of a 370ohm resistor to fake a nominal reading.

yes the unit will have "downloadable" tunes from the manufacturer.   these are basic tunes that just describe the baseline operating parameters of the attached engine. baseline would follow 35lb injectors and standard ve tables based on a stock flowing setup. it will encompass injector firing order etc,  i suspect a look at the code would reveal that it closely matches the pe or la3 programming that was found in the best factory computers.  that being said one must still customize the tune to operate with your combination.  I am suspecting that your dyno shop may not have a very good handle on the whole process as their inability to get your combo running properly with the larger injectors would indicate to me that they are not writing the proper values into the unit to actually "describe" the injectors to it and are just using ignition timing and injector pulse width modifications to "tune " the system.

as a further point on the large injectors are you using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator?   this will further richen the mixture on boost as the increased pressure offsets the fuel delivery slope of the injector.  really with the large ones you should be able to tune with a single rate fpr and get much better results. the only reason to raise the fuel pressure is to achieve more flow than the quoted capacity of the injector at its base fuel pressure (usually 40 psi) so a factory brown top rated at 35lbs/hr at 40 psi may flow 38 lbs/hr at 45 psi. this gets exacerbated with a large injector. a 75 lb/hr at 40 psi injector is gonna flow 80ish at 45 psi

anyhow if we assume that your dyno shop is not manned by monkeys and they really do know how to set this thing up my money is still on the ect sensor as an intermittent source of shytty performance. especially if the tuneup was written with a faulty one.  BTW there are two types of this sensor available . one has a solid metal tip and the other uses a composite end.  avoid the ones without a metal tip.  with the amount of cash you have spread around on different systems and tuning  a 40 dollar sensor is cheap insurance.

OhSix'
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

Pinto Pro

I think the crank trigger is optional as it works thru the stock distributor. The o2 sensor would work at part throttle & cruise, but the system goes into open loop mode when the pedal hits the metal.

Bigtimmay

i did a little reading on your efi system and it is suppsoed to have a 02 sensor input built in it along with the use of a crank trigger, air temp, water temp ,TPS plus it controls your iginiton and fuel.

Seems like a very simple an easy to setup. Now tuning it that could be a nightmare.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Pinto Pro

Oh, the system is a LT-10. Remember, Im not the tuner, so Im nearly at the mercy of the dynoshop. According to them, Micro-Tech has downloadable tunups that they can simply input into the control unit.

You may be right about some of the sensors, I know it does not use the 02, but it does indeed use the TPS sensor (sorry, I had to go double check!!...you're right), so that leaves the MAP, air temp, coolant temp, and ignition signal...that Im aware of!! What other sensors could there be?? I guess the TPS is what tells it what kind of load its under.
My understanding is that it operates in a open loop mode according to the tunup thats installed, but it will make slight changes by itself too...not big changes, but I could be wrong on this too!!

OhSix9

Ok so please clarify.

with the new micro tech system what running issue are you having? which model are you using??? i looked at the wiring for the lt8 version and it looks to take input from all the factory sensors.

honestly i do not understand how your system is even functioning using only those 3 sensors you listed.  sure you can do an approximate fuel calculation if you where given air pressure and temp ,VE of the engine and rmp. however the issue there is that without a BAP sensor to reference the map against (or other supporting sensors) you are  guessing on a static value for the original air density. again VE is going to have to be a static value ( which raises the question does the calculation use a ve table for different rpm's or just a single fixed figure)
no O2 sensor says that it is always on the software map and makes no corrections meaning your tuning has to be perfect for every rpm and even more confusing without a tps and using only the sensors you listed it is not possible to calculate load so if what you say is true and you have a fuel injection system running with air pressure, temp and rpm sensors only,  there is one place in the world it will run right. on the controlled environment of a dyno . i guess the centrifugal effect of the dyno would provide a controlled loading condition that would allow you to write a tune profile for a given set of barometric conditions but again with the sensors you have given and no way to determine load how is the appropriate ignition advance determined?

as for the injectors. the dyno shop should bee able to determine the real world required size.  if wot at max rpm under load is lean at full duty cycle then step up a size as you are moving enough air to warrant it. its really that simple. think of injector as the main jet on a carb it has a max value (main)  a min value (kinda the low speed jets) and a slope  (needle taper) electronic tuning is like having an infinite amount of control over needle height and contour. even a 4bbl carb has rudimentary throttle position sensing  if you consider a vac secondary

Something is not right here. 

OhSix'
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

Pinto Pro

I've been told they will handle 85% duty cycle which will raise the threshold somewhat.

I have a set of brand new 72 lb/hr injectors, and they were so rich, even when they lowered all the values, we ended up removing them and going with the 55's.

Bigtimmay

Humm

HorsePower X B.S.F.C / No. of injectors x Duty cycle= Lbs Per hr need for at crank HP

So with you last wheel HP of 405 well just do this.

405x.60/4x.80=
243/3.2=75.9375
B.S.F.C= Brake specific fuel consumption
N/a car should be between.45-.50
Supercharged between .55-.60
Turboed between .60-.65
that should be the right formula to get injector size.

From what i can tell to keep your injectors under a 80% duty cycle you would have to be running 85psi of fuel pressure

Maybe somone else can tell me what im doing wrong or if im right cause i havent seen too many dyno shops be wrong on wat they were shooting for but 55 for over 400 just dont seem right to me.

243/4=60.75

Man that one has me stumped on how 55s would work with that amount of power even at 50psi youd have to run them at 100% duty cycle which would likely fry them.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Pinto Pro

Yeah, something like that....75-80% and 45 PSI fuel pressure.

There is a mathematical formula somewhere (the dynoshop knows it) that says in theory, the 55 pounders are good for about 520 horsepower at the flywheel, or around 450 to the wheels.

Bigtimmay

55lb hr injectors really dont seem like big enough injectors for 400hp at the wheels. I was figureing you was running sumthing like a 70lb hr.
Am i wrong or just missing sumthing all together?

Wats the duty cycle on your injectors and base Fuel pressure?   
Just gunna guess 80% standard duty cycle and around wat 55psi fuel pressure?
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Pinto Pro

Im sorry, I should have specified that the current system is from "Micro-Tech". I already trashed the SDS system. The wiring harness is a custom made set that was installed with the Micro-Tech system (I did'nt install it, I had a friend do it since my job dont give me enough time for such a project).

The only sensors it uses is a MAP (which is a 3 bar unit), and an ignition signal and air temp sensor. It does not use a TPS or an 02 sensor for input, however, when it goes to the dynoshop, they put their wideband 02 in there to "see" whats going on.

The injectors are Bosch (Siemens) 55 lb/hr units, but I cant remember which impedence style they are..Im thinking low, but I can be wrong here.

OhSix9

Pro,

I assumed the sds you are using is the one that pigtails into the original eec IV harness, this may be off base and you might be stand alone. do you have a forum link to some details of your setup. i am not super familiar with their system as i have been concentrating my efforts on hot rodding the original ecu as far as possible but since you are still on the tfi it is interfacing with the factory sensors on some level right?. which ones does it use, from here out i am making some assumptions about the configuration.  it appears to remove the vam and there also doesn't seem to be a maf meter on the deal so its speed density? 

SD is tough since it really doesn't measure the air as much as calculate volume based on temp, pressure, "assumed volumetric efficiency" and load. its the 3rd one that throws a wrench in the works and requires a new tuneup to change to a high flow air filter.  :mad: as restrictive and rudimentary as it was at least the vam system was an attempt to measure the actual amount of air flowing in the system. Maf is ideal since it actually meters air so the VE calculation is determined by volume vs rpm. as long as your mass air base tune is close it will compensate for most changes in intake and exhaust efficiency without dyno time. cam changes can be optimized with a fresh tune up

on the ford eec the spark advance is closely tied to the coolant temp if your system is similar in any of its workings a funky sensor can screw you 6 ways from sunday . can you data log it? do you have a wideband o2 and egt sensors on it? those 3 items will let you do alot of tuning with the crotch chronometer and a flat stretch of blacktop. the modern equivalent of a flat blade screw driver is the 9 pin serial port my friend.

other stuff to look at.
is it expecting IAT or VAT sensor input? similar function somewhat similar packaging different scaling
MAP vs BAP sensor. again factory parts use the same packaging and plug yet do different things.  you got enough bar for your boost levels?   
what injectors are you running? high or low impedance? again not knowing the sds can it drive one or both?   is the scaling set right in the ecu?

do you have any documentation on the sds system you can send me to look over?

Again assuming you just pigtailed into the factory harness i suggested making the original p or la series ecu into mass air. I think i have all the documentation and software assembled to hash together a p series file that will incorporate 96lb low imp injectors, the 80mm maf sensor from an f series pickup and a maf clip function that should allow the use of a good ol fashioned swing style bov without making the dang thing go filthy rich on transition. i am just doing a little more research to see if i can figure out how to use the standard and easily available  iat in place of the vat sensor.

that looks like an esslinger aluminum head on there so i will hazard a guess its got billet rods and is fully studded.  If you got enough turbo you should be able to make a claw hammer reliable 450.  whatever the head can flow the bottom end will take and ask for more.

Just threw a few things out there off the top of my head but provide some additional details and i can try to get this thing figured out. Am willing to take a crack at it anyways

OhSix'

Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

Pinto Pro

Yes, it is a 8" inch rear with TC disc setup on it.

The car has an aftermarket EFI system on it right now, not a stock Ford system.
I know several people running blow thru carbs on turbo'd V8's and they are working awesome...which is whats making me think about going that route.
I can tune a carb with a screwdriver, but I cant tune an EFI system with one!!

I always have to take the car to a dyno shop to have it tuned, and its very costly.
Im just tired of spending big money on this car only to have it continuously disappoint.

Im going to fiddle with the current combo to get it running (which means another expensive dyno session), but Im no longer shooting for a power goal. I just want it to drive under its own power.
This combo is cappable of 450+HP at the rear wheels, but I know if I push it that hard, something is going to fail, so I'll back off from that goal and try to keep it alive instead.


Bigtimmay

Another question is that an 8 inch rearend with turbocoupe rear discs on it?

If not what kinda discs are they?
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

OhSix9

It sounds like a problem with the ect sensor. they are notorious for going bad and will make the car intermittently run like a bag of butt. when you mentioned it wouldn't pull over 4k rpm i was thinking the cam was out a tooth but since some tinkering has resolved that it eliminated that possibility it would make sense to look at other things. one tooth or approx 5 degrees will shift the power range of the cam around about 1500 rpm making it fall on its face around 4500 rpm or if its out the other way it'll be a total dog till about 4500 then wanna rev to 7.  otherwise its an issue with a bad ground/wire or connection in the system, TFI's are somewhat fragile but no t to the extent you describe,  you can beef them up with a large heat sink or relocation to the firewall

if you think an efi is hard to set up try and get a blow thru carb to run right LMFAO. draw through is a much easier tune - up. blow through will almost always be slobbering rich off the boost or way lean on it with no happy middle ground. Plus the joys of having to hat and seal the carb

i can provide you some links to switch the original ford eec system to mass air with a moates device and a little patience. there is enough info out there now to do more with the factory system than you can with most of the aftermarket stuff.  Speed density licks balls, to much tuning every time you change something.

The chassis work looks really nice BTW.

OhSix'
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

Pinto Pro

When they're correctly set up, they are just as good as EFI

Bigtimmay

lol i feel ya on the EFI annoyance i figure ill just grab a MS when i start to build my 2.3t bobcat and if it dont work out how i want itll end up in the ae86 driftcar And ill just go speed density.

Blow thrus are pretty BadA** alot of people dont like um though.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Pinto Pro

I dont know anything about megasquirt. Im pretty much in the dark when it comes to EFI. I might even trash the current system and go with a blow-thru carb system.

I'll never buy another EFI system ever again.

Bigtimmay

Can i ask why you didnt go with sumthing like megasquirt when you where having so many problems with your efi?
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

Srt

Glad to see that you haven't given up!

the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Pinto Pro

Heres some of the progress....








Pinto Pro

Its been a while, and I've done a little bit of work on the car. Cut out the trunk floor and made a new compartment for the fuel cell , battery, and fuel pump.
Added a rollbar, but Im still not done completely.
Trying to make the car legal for the strip, but everytime I go there, it seems like they are not satisfied. Its not an all-out race car, its a street car dammit!!

Anyways, heres where I removed the rear floor....









Pinto Pro

Well, I have been struggling with this thing. I t seems like it would go on one really good run, then crap out all the rest of the time.
Very frustrating.
After changing out literally every electrical and ignition component on the car more than three times each, the only conclusion that I come to, is that the SDS unit is malfunctioning very badly.

So its going in the trash, and a whole new system from "Micro-Tech" is going in the car.

Even with the SDS system not working properly, it was still able to put down 405 ponies at the wheels on the chassis dyno.
There is much more in it, but the current setup will not allow it to be discovered.

I put on some new M/T Drag Radials too...the old "I Block" tires were hard as stones, and it would'nt stay in its own lane when the boost came on!!

There are plenty of NHRA mandatory upgrades I have to do still.

I am going to race a local guy here who has a 1948 Austin (old British car) with a blown 383 Chevy in it. His car runs good, but when he gets his butt handed to him by a Pinto....in front of his buddies, no less....it will be a sweet sight to see.


Pinto Pro

The latest update is that I put on yet another new TFI unit, and low and behold, its working correctly.

I let it warm up, re-checked the timing, and took her for a spin around the block.
And spin is what it did!!......as in, all 3 gears!!

Now Im ready to click off some 10.50's... :o

Pinto Pro

I have had trouble with the TFI units before (kinda like a Mallory "Unilite" system), and I've swapped out for new units and everythging works fine...for a while.
I have brand new one in place, but I'll try swapping it out for yet another one again because I am going thru the process of elimination.

This car has SDS on it, so I have no way of swapping out the ECM for another unless I buy another.  I called SDS and explained what was going on, and they said I could send in the ECM to have them check it out, but that it is rare that anything like that goes wrong with them (of course).
So I can try swapping out the TFI unit, and/or the pickup inside the distributor, before sending off the ECM for a checkup.

I like the camshaft, it certainly makes more power than a stock one, and Im sure theres more left in this combo if I can just make it run!!

Throwing money at it is all water under the bridge now...I lost count of how much I've blown on this thing!!
Everyone says "get a Motec system" or a FAST system or something similar.
But they're talking $5000+ for an injection system....no thanks, I can convert this car over to V-8 for that kind of money, and it will be just as fast, and more reliable!!

77turbopinto

Quote from: Pinto Pro on May 05, 2008, 11:58:53 PM
LOL..but I lose money by constantly dumping greenbacks into it. :amazed:

The cam is the popular Esslinger #2277 hyd.roller

So its either in the ECM, or I need to try yet another TFI module.

So.... are you saying that you swapped out the ECU and/or the TFI before and it fixed it?

I have read that people hated the 2277, and either put a stock T/C or roller back in their cars. I am not saying that IS your problem, its just a thought.


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

turbo toy

No need throwing good money after bad. Whatcha want for it?

Pinto Pro

LOL..but I lose money by constantly dumping greenbacks into it. :amazed:

The cam is the popular Esslinger #2277 hyd.roller

So its either in the ECM, or I need to try yet another TFI module.