Hi folks,
I'm beginning to shop for a sedan like my first car, and I'd like to use it as a weekend driver/canyon carver to go up against my BIL's 2002 Miata. What's the best engine/trans/rear end stock set-up to start with in the 74 - 76 years? I'd like the option of dropping a 2.3 turbo in at a later date, but frankly I'm not excited about all the changes that have to be made - don't want to cut the body or hood at all to make it fit.
From what I've read so far, 2.3 engine, manual trans, not sure about the rear end. Depending on the recommendation for rear end, is there a specific year/package I should be looking for to start with the best baseline before trying any performance mods/tuning?
Wow, must have been a faux pas to even suggest that a Pinto could be a canyon carver... :-]
BTW, was neat to see the Pinto on Top Gear going around the track, nose diving and rolling...
id run a 2.5l short block from a ranger with the roller cam from the same t-5 trans from a v8 mustang 8 inch or 9 inch rear with 3:50 to 3:90 gears but thats just me
brad :)
Thanks for playing Brad! Which rear end is faster off the line, the 3:50 or the 3:90, everything else being equal? I get that the 3:90 means more torque, but what does that mean for overall speed performance? I'm pretty sure I understand the theory, just don't know what happens in the real world.
Different question for everyone - how difficult is it to go from automatic to manual? Pedals I get, but is that a nightmare to do, or piece of cake? Other considerations when swapping?
And Brad, thanks again, but the real question was what car to start with, in what combination available as stock. Most seem to lean toward the 2.3, but I've seen others rally around the 2.0. I also know several rear end ratios were offered depending on what package you got. Again, I'm assuming manual trans.
Me personally, I would go for a 2.3L 4-banger, with a factory 4-speed manual. That is what my car started as.
The nice thing about the 2.3L is that there is a but-load of bolt-on things to make the car go faster, such as head, cam, intakes etc etc. The 4-speed would work fine to run stock. I have roughly 135K on my factory 4-speed manual trans, with no issues.
You could look to replace the factory rear end housing with a Ford 8" unit. I swapped mine out from a Mustang II Ghia, and everything flew in, the spring perches were in the correct location and the width was perfect.
Brakes you may want to upgrade. They make kits to use the GM calipers with 11" rotors. You can also get the same kit that will convert your car to 5-lug, which will make wheel selection much easier. I did the 11" upgrade and converted it to 5-lug on my car.
I think the biggest thing will be tires if you are intending on driving the car hard. I am running the BF-Goodrich Radial TA's on my car, and they seem to grip okay for how I drive, but there are better tires out there.
My car is an 80 Pinto, with a modded 2.3L, factory 4-speed, 8" rear end, upgraded brakes and bigger tires. The car really shines in the corners. Off the line, the car is a bit sluggish, due to the 3.00's for the rear end gears, the bigger tires, and the super aggressive cam (power-band in my car is about 4,500 to 6,000 RPM's).
(http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l478/blindfaith429/IMG_2252.jpg)
(http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l478/blindfaith429/IMG_2250.jpg)
(http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l478/blindfaith429/IMG_2255.jpg)
Dont know how fast your trying to go, but to beat the miatas handling you have to remember the miata is as light as a feather, you get a t9 or t5, 4 speed is fine, but i like more options, drop the pinto on the ground, 2 inch drop spindles and new springs, i have landrum springs on all four corners, 650 rates in the front and 150s in the rear, when you do that get different wheels, cant run 13s unless you space them in the front, or they will hit the ball mounts, good old mustang wheels on 1 inch spacers will do the trick, 15x7s with 225 50 15s, good shocks are a must, afcos will act like drag shocks after a while, pro stock shock are awsome and then get swaybars, run a light swaybar on the rear or none at all, you will love the rear steer, for speed, 2.3 and the sky is the limit with that thing, thats my setup and i take corners faster than all my friends, they drive m3s, crxs, cameros and s2ks, and they cant touch me in the turns, staight aways are different storys thoe
Shocks and tires are by far the most important item on a Pinto "Boy Racer". Lower it till the front control arm is level with the ground (about 1/3 to 1/2 a coil cut off on the front). Aluminum fly wheel will make a really big improvement out of the turns. I've got a 3:50 / 8"/ posie in mine, with 205/60/13 tires on all four corners. 7"wide wheels too. Works for me.
Quote from: 80_2.3_ESS on February 29, 2012, 11:43:15 AM
My car is an 80 Pinto, with a modded 2.3L, factory 4-speed, 8" rear end, upgraded brakes and bigger tires. The car really shines in the corners. Off the line, the car is a bit sluggish, due to the 3.00's for the rear end gears, the bigger tires, and the super aggressive cam (power-band in my car is about 4,500 to 6,000 RPM's).
Nick, I saw your car in another post - nice set up. If I can find the original 3:40 rear end that came in the '76, is there any reason to swap up to the 8" rear end? I've seen a lot of people use the 3:55, which I'm guessing is why they switch to the 8", but I figure the 3:40 will be a huge improvement. [Does anyone have a history of rear ends that came in the Pinto for all years?]
Quote from: 82expghost on February 29, 2012, 04:17:10 PM
Dont know how fast your trying to go, but to beat the miatas handling you have to remember the miata is as light as a feather, you get a t9 or t5, 4 speed is fine, but i like more options, drop the pinto on the ground, 2 inch drop spindles and new springs, i have landrum springs on all four corners, 650 rates in the front and 150s in the rear, when you do that get different wheels, cant run 13s unless you space them in the front, or they will hit the ball mounts, good old mustang wheels on 1 inch spacers will do the trick, 15x7s with 225 50 15s, good shocks are a must, afcos will act like drag shocks after a while, pro stock shock are awsome and then get swaybars, run a light swaybar on the rear or none at all, you will love the rear steer, for speed, 2.3 and the sky is the limit with that thing, thats my setup and i take corners faster than all my friends, they drive m3s, crxs, cameros and s2ks, and they cant touch me in the turns, staight aways are different storys thoe
Thanks for the info dump 82expghost - that's a lotta great info! I like the sound of "rear steer". Not sure I understand the issue with the 13" rims...
Quote from: dick1172762 on February 29, 2012, 05:46:29 PM
Shocks and tires are by far the most important item on a Pinto "Boy Racer". Lower it till the front control arm is level with the ground (about 1/3 to 1/2 a coil cut off on the front). Aluminum fly wheel will make a really big improvement out of the turns. I've got a 3:50 / 8"/ posie in mine, with 205/60/13 tires on all four corners. 7"wide wheels too. Works for me.
Dick, any noticeable tire sidewall deflection in the corners? Toying with the idea of bumping up to 15" wheels like a lot of folks, but like the look of the originals. I see now that you're running 7" wides, which I'm sure helps.
I run 7" wide but I have a friend with a Pinto with 8" on all 4 corners. And I think Pintony has 16x9" on his wagon. The tire /wheel combo is the key to sticking to the track. Lots of rubber is the answer.
Are you using spacers at all, or they work fine with what lowering you've done? Wondering if you can lower with drop spindles enough to get handling improvement w/o having to use spacers. Maybe a wheel with offset will eliminate the need for spacers?
Cutting a 1/3 to 1/2 coil and a set of Racer Walsh 1" lowering blocks will get it as low as you can stand on city streets. Lowering spindles will put the bottom ball joint almost on the ground with 13" wheels, and if you have a flat, on the ground. Not worth it!!!!
Dick, for racing, (and I have it also reg as a historic vehicle, ) I put the axel on top of the leaf spings, and used 3 inch lowering blocks avail everywhere to raise axel even higher from springs. I use 14 x7 wheels with Toyo Proxes 255x50x14 tires with 2 each wheel spacers avail from Racer Walsh
Quote from: dick1172762 on March 01, 2012, 03:00:55 PM
Cutting a 1/3 to 1/2 coil and a set of Racer Walsh 1" lowering blocks will get it as low as you can stand on city streets. Lowering spindles will put the bottom ball joint almost on the ground with 13" wheels, and if you have a flat, on the ground. Not worth it!!!!
How high up does the ball joint normally sit? 13" wheels or 15", I plan on keeping the overall tire diameter the same. Want to keep this a sleeper car as much as possible, but thought lowering a couple inches max would be worth it for any handling gains, plus to fill up the wheel wells a little more without up-sizing the tires...
if you want to keep the sleeper look, dimond racing can put the centers of the original steelies on wider 13 inch rims, thats what im going to do here soon so i can run the beauty rings and so i can get the offset needed so my rims dont rub the balljoints from the drop spendles, cutting springs will lower the car and stiffen the front, but then you have the side effect of bad camber, also it puts the steering in a bind messing with the bump steer, vw cut those springs all day, ford pinto, mabe a rung or rung and a half, as for the rear springs, landrum race leafsprings bolt rite in and lower the car like 2 inches, and if you to slam your pinto, remember you have that subframe that sits realy low already, or you will get stuck in a walgreens parking lot on a speed bump roasting tires trying to get off of it
Ghost, I like that idea - can they do the same with the alloy wheels?
Or you can try to back fit the I.R.S. from any Mustang G.T. that NO ONE WANTS....Add a panhard bar etc.....
Quote from: D.R.Ball on March 03, 2012, 03:04:52 PM
Or you can try to back fit the I.R.S. from any Mustang G.T. that NO ONE WANTS....Add a panhard bar etc.....
Mustang GT's have NEVER had an I.R.S. - the only Mustang that came from the factory with I.R.S. is the 99-04 Cobra and since those cars are rare and collectible, I don't think you will find too many rear ends assemblies from them available.
Also IRS set ups don't use a Panhard bar, that is for live axles only.
You could use the IRS out of a thunderchicken or a merkur, that's a lot of work for a gain not worth the hassles, the leafspring rear end is so much better in my opinion in so many ways, for instance the rear steer, and is lighter than the mustangs four link binding crap
Great message thread.
Anyone here fabricated a rear panhard rod to their Pinto rear end?
panhard is old school, go watts linkage, unless u drive in circles then panhard bar is fine
OK, anyone installed a watts linkage system on their Pinto?
The pivots are more complicated than a simple panhard rod. I would guess it is best to get a kit.
Try Racer Walsh.They have most of the other go fast stuff too. They do not update their web page however, best thing to to is call them with the part number. Also Speedway has some Pinto parts.
most range rovers come stock with them, cut it off of the frame, pretty simple when you look at it long enough
the panhard rod & the watts link are really best suited to a live axle non leaf spring car to limit lateral movement of the 3rd member under the chassis.
the leaf springs will provide more than adequate lateral motion restraint in most cases.
i don't think that the trouble gone thru to apply either to a leaf sprung Pinto would be worth the gain. (if any).
that's not to mention the rather tight space available at the rear of a Pinto.
others may have a differing opinion. please chime in if you do.
just my $0.02 worth.
You must run a panhard bar if and only if you use long shackles to place the rear spring eyes on a level plain like the GT-Pinto boys do. Otherwise you will never see a differance on any thing short of an all out race track. Been there/done that!!!!
I second what Dick is saying.My GT3 Pinto was a killer
at the autox and did well roadracing(down on hp) without all the exotic
stuff such as a panhard bar and a coil over front end.
The thread asks best stock setup,so for a minimal outlay
I would lower the car(cut front coils and use blocks in the rear) clamp the rear springs on the front half,13x 7 or 8 or 15x7 10 hole Mustang wheels with sticky street tires (less than 200 tw rating).The Mustang wheels would throw off the sleeper look though.
Move the battery to the right rear and get the car on a set of scales.
A PERFORMANCE alignment will go a long way to help handling but isnt
optimal for treadware.
You dont want to hear this but,the Pinto will never be on a level playing field
with the Miata.I have run GT3 with a Pinto and a RX2/RX7 and now run Spec Miata
and the Spec Miata will beat the spats off of the Pinto with less hp.The SM is also
quicker at the autox than the Pinto.
And therein lies the challenge. So what does the pinto need to come close to the miata? Is there a horsepower amount that is the breakeven on performance? Or is it a suspension issue?
chassis and weight and where the weight is, and how deep your pockets are and resources, build wheels and go from there, doesnt feel stiff enough, change springs and so on, i think it can be done, i beat my buddys m3 all day in handling, hes running r compound WIDE wheels, raceland coilovers, huge sway bars, it will pin you to the door, my pinto will put you through the door, my only problem is my 0-60 is five days long
That's what I like to hear! Frankly, I'm not too concerned about 0-60 as much as off the line. If I've got the low-end torque to get into the corner faster and back out the other side, should be fun. I read another thread where folks suggested the V6 might even be better due to weight distribution, if you can fix some of the performance issues with tuning. Thoughts?
2300 is the only way to go!!!! You can't get go fast stuff any more for the other two. Theres tons of stuff out there for the 2300.
Dick is right. The 2300 has lots of stuff available. I personally chose a 2000 for vintage racing, but if you are streeting the car, or racing SCCA or NASA choose the 2300. I am at a great disadvantage in SCCA and NASA because the 2000 and 2300 are in the same class, the stock 2300 has 40 lbs of grunt more than the 2000.
it would be even cooler if you can get a taurus 3.0 24v bolted to the tranny, its alittle lighter and its stock 200hp, thats my route someday after im bored with th 2.3
Quote from: dennll on March 14, 2012, 06:02:14 AM
If I've got the low-end torque to get into the corner faster and back out the other side, should be fun. Thoughts?
Its not the in you need to worry about, its corner exit speed you want.
After tracking the differences on a race GPS setup I finally got it.
I remember a quote from a drivers school I was at for one of my roadrace licenses.A Brumos Porsche driver
said," Slow in,fast out fast in,spin out, you will find the arc of the infinite apex!"
Canyon carver? Get a set of early 90s 16x7 Pony wheels, some good 205 or 215 45 16s(the later will require a spacer in the rear)tires, the best you can afford and a good set of performance shocks. It will be a go-cart. Beefing up the brakes is a good idea but then you might as well go five lug, then you need new rear axles, which means you might as well go to an 8.8 with discs.........
Or this...
(http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/robertdbreedlove/102_6371.jpg)
(http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx36/robertdbreedlove/Christmas2010033.jpg)
Those wheels really do look good on a Pinto!
Grumpy
those wheels look almost stock on that car!!!!
Quote from: dick1172762 on March 13, 2012, 03:00:45 PM
You must run a panhard bar if and only if you use long shackles to place the rear spring eyes on a level plain like the GT-Pinto boys do. Otherwise you will never see a differance on any thing short of an all out race track. Been there/done that!!!!
good point. i hadn't thought of that.
Look in a very old Racer Walsh catalog (mid 70's) and you will see the one he sold back then. Really simple, and easy to build, and it 100% bolt on.
Find youself a V-8 Mustang II from way up north (Canada) and look at the front sway bar. A 1" bar was on some and was ease to fit on a Pinto. Had one on my 72 race car, and its still on there after 37 years. By the way, if a sway bar doesn't line up with your control arms, just tie it down, stick a pipe over the end and bend it. It will bend very easy, even a 1" bar.
FYI, Addco still advertises large (1" F & 7/8" R) sway bars for the Pinto and Bobcat. Might be easier to locate than a parts V8 Mustang II.
Caution: this is a 10 MB download pdf catalog.
http://www.k2graphicservices.com/ebooks/AddcoSwayBars/document.pdf (http://www.k2graphicservices.com/ebooks/AddcoSwayBars/document.pdf)
Grumpy is that an IRS rear end ?
Quote from: racer99 on March 15, 2012, 03:59:18 PM
Its not the in you need to worry about, its corner exit speed you want.
After tracking the differences on a race GPS setup I finally got it.
I remember a quote from a drivers school I was at for one of my roadrace licenses.A Brumos Porsche driver
said," Slow in,fast out fast in,spin out, you will find the arc of the infinite apex!"
i remember taking a couple of laps at riverside a (long) while back. The ride was in a Chevy Van driven by a course instructor at a CalClub event. All track 'virgins' were required to take a lap this way to help familiarize them with the track & the best way around (relatively speaking).
This guy took a lap around that track with one arm on the drivers side widow sill quicker than 1/2 the guys 'racing' later that day. Your 'slow in / fast out' saying is some good advice
Heres 2 more tidbits,
"When your a$$ is hung out,both feet in!!!
Translation,
If you get in over your head,1 foot on the clutch and the other on the brake.
Exit speed is king!!!
Faster out = faster at the braking point for the next corner=
quicker lap times.
To keep this on topic,
bigger diameter bars doesnt always equal faster.
Its all about balance front to rear.
Anything to stiffen the chassis will help also.
On our old IMSA RS Pinto they used 3/4 inch square tube
welded to the back side of the pinchwelds and tied it into the
rear suspension and rollcage.
Thanks for keeping us on topic! But the diversions have been helpful as well. Just as a teaser, I hope to have a significant update to this post mid-week. In the meantime, I'm following that the best path from stock is to upgrade suspension before engine? If I were to create a project plan that could be implemented in a modular fashion as money is available, what would be the breakdown and order? Here's a list in no particular order; feel free to break down or combine components and rearrange as necessary to make things continue to work along the way:
- rims: taller? wider? lighter? Taking into account other suspension changes (drop spindles, bigger brakes, spring/shock changes)
- tires: wider/lower profile/matched to rims obviously
- drop spindles
- sway bars
- springs (lower, or higher to counteract drop spindles?)
- shocks (any real advantages to coilovers?)
- performance leaf springs (added stiffness - but lower too?)
- what other chassis stiffeners? (do not want roll cage, want this still a street car with a tolerable ride)
- lowering overall? (covered with above components, but curious how much handling gain for lowering front/back; not looking to slam it, would almost prefer to keep it looking stock, but lower geometry of drop spindles then back up with springs or tires if there is actually a handling improvement)
Similar list for drive train separately (can do in parallel)
- Intake mods? (air filter, placement, etc.)
- Exhaust? (don't mind a new "growl", but want it still somewhat "factory", i.e. not too loud)
- flywheel?
- cams?
- pistons/rods?
- over-bore?
- crank?
- head?
- carb?
- supercharger? (would love to see this work vs. turbo; something different; see fast forward supercharger for Miata)
- rear-end size/ratio?
- driveshaft?
- 5-speed vs. 4-speed? (what performance gains, or just better for gas mileage at cruising speed? :-])
Thanks for playing!
wheels are first, if you decide to use drop spindles, you can use stock front springs not cut, addco rear springs are normal height, landrum rear springs drop the rear of the car perfect with the drop spindles, when using the drop spindles, there will be clearance issues, i would suggest new rotors with arp wheel studs ready with wheel spacers, also your brake lines will need to be moved closer because at wheel lock you will be pulling them apart, you can run a 750 rate spring in the front, don't skimp on shocks, addcos will act like drag shocks after a while of "spirited driving" or hooning as i call it, so in my opinion go for pro stock shocks, thats the name of the company, ugly gold color
1st wheels
2nd front spindles with new rotors with arp wheel studs
3rd springs and shocks
4th adjustable upper a arms for camber adjustment if you want to make finer tuning
sway bars can go any time in the order and change all of those decrepit bushings
this is what i run, and its my daily, it works, just watch where you drive and potholes hurt
Also recommend PRO SHOCKS company. They will custom make shock ends for lowered Pinto. I am using Corvette rear shocks, PRO SHOCKS fitted the two correct shock ends for very low price. Front shocks fit perfect on lowered racing Pinto
D.R.Ball
Yes, it's out of a 03 Cobra with 3.55 and a traction lock+the beefy halfshafts.
So it's one of the so called rare rear ends.....Cool find and on a seperate thread show us how to install one...BTW the guy at Trucks are working on a Ford Ranger with a V-8 Mod motor and a IRS rear end...And it's for the twisty racing that this thread is about...