Hello all,
first of all is the C4 the stock tranny in Pinto's?
second of all will a 302 bolt up to the bellhousing of this stock C4 or will I have to get one out of a Mustang II in order for a V8 to bolt up to it? specifically a stock 72 runabout. It is the car I am looking into purchasing and the seller claims it has the stock C4 which he says bolts up to a 302.
Also if anyone knows the stall converter that came in these things I would appreciate it!
Thanks a bunch!
Andrew
The V8 will not bolt up to the pinto bellhousing. The '72 might even have a C3. MII's had a smaller V8 bell. A standard V8 bell will not fit w/o modifying the firewall. And Pintony will curse at you if you do that. Oh wait, he is going to curse at you for even thinking about a V8 swap. >:(
modified firewall in my car.
So obviously the guy selling me the car is wrong then?
Well with the C4 I know I won't have to go all out on the firewall like 71PintoRacer had to for his T5. But you guys are saying I NEED to change the tranny to a C4 from a mustang II because the stock pinto one will NOT WORK?
Just clarify that for me guys if you can!
Thanks a bunch!
Just kidding Pintony!! ;D
1. If the trans is indeed a C4 it will work, you just need to change the bell to one for a V8.
2. The MII V8 had a smaller bell. And a smaller flywheel.
3. If you can't find a MII bell (good luck) and have to use the bigger bell you will have to modify the firewall like I did.
The stock 4 cyl c4 also has some weeker internals then the the v8 version.
I assume finding the C4 from a Mustang II is quite the task?
Well this is grrrrreat! :accident:
Now now , Anything thats going to be fun in the end is worth a little work right?
Yes finding a complete C4 from a Mustang II is going to be a challenge to say the least. SO just peice it together. However you WILL have to get a doner V8 C4. As the C4 that did come in the pintos have a different valve body, a smaller clutch pack with only 3 clutches in the low reverse drum, and 4 in the other verses 4 or 5 and 5 or 6 (aftermarket HP stuff). Also it has a different govenor. otherwise its the same. I took my Pinto C4 and put all V8 internals in it. It works but probably cheaper to get it all at once especially if its your first transmission.
If you do get another C4 for your doner get a 70 and up trans. The earlier models have a 24 spline input shaft and youll need a 26. That just complicates things more.
I'll start you off.
C4 Bellhousing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/8BIN-Ford-C4-C-4-Bell-Housing-Bellhousing-302V8-D5ZP-AA_W0QQitemZ290211733905QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116)
C4 Inspection Cover (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/C4-INSPECTION-PLATE-COVER-MUSTANG-II-COBRA-302-5-0-351_W0QQitemZ350073726738QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116)
C4 Block Plate (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MUSTANG-II-C4-BELLHOUSING-BLOCK-PLATE-COBRA-302-5-0_W0QQitemZ350073727394QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p4506.m20.l1116)
Youll still need a torque convertor, and a flexplate. They are both specific as well. The convertor has a 9 3/8 bolt spacing and the flexplate has 144 teeth. The only one in the V8 ford group.Plus all that stuff was only made for the Mustang II for 3 years 75, 76 ,77.
This is the cleanest way to do it, You can do it MUCH easier by stuffing the larger common as nails 157 bell and youll have a plethora of choices on convertors, flexplates, etc etc. But then you HAVE to start pounding or cutting the firewall.
BTW be carefull about pounding the tunnel. The Heater box is just above the tunnel and made of fiberglass. It will get destroyed. Remove it if you want to keep it in good shape.
I have lots more info to share, just let me know your serious and ill devulge. Ive already spent over an hour researching the parts for ya so far and i need to get moving to the next thing LOL!
GL!
Wow MAN!
Thank you so much for all your help mr 71HotrodPinto!!!!
I really appreciate the fact you took the time to look into all that stuff. It has given me a better idea of what I am going to need!. So those links you sent me pretty much cover the shell of the tranny but contain no internals which I would have to buy seperately?
Well I am going to try my luck with MII's. The town I was in where the pinto was I saw 2 of them! one was fully restored and looked pretty sweet, but the other looked like it was sitting there so maybe I will go knock on his door and try to work something out as well. I have already been to my local yard many times, no mustang II's anywhere!
I appreciate your help and I will keep in touch with you for sure!
Quote from: 71pintoracer on August 11, 2008, 07:19:50 PM
The V8 will not bolt up to the pinto bellhousing. The '72 might even have a C3. MII's had a smaller V8 bell. A standard V8 bell will not fit w/o modifying the firewall. And Pintony will curse at you if you do that. Oh wait, he is going to curse at you for even thinking about a V8 swap. >:(
The C3 came out in 74, so unless it was swapped in there should not be one in there.
No, he won't, but if the project goes unfinished he WILL give you a BIG "I told you so...".
No matter what year Pinto is done (later ones are 'easier'), a V8 swap requires lots of modification (cutting) to the car. I have seen so many 'hack-job' v8 swaps it's not funny. IF someone wants to do a V8 swap, go ahead, but be warned it is not an easy thing to do 'correctly'.
Quote from: CHEAPRACER on August 11, 2008, 09:32:14 PM
The stock 4 cyl c4 also has some weeker internals then the the v8 version.
That is correct, a V8 will kill it in short order.
As mentioned any non-2.0/2.3 C4 SHOULD do the trick, but you should use the Gov. from your 4-banger one. Also, your bell for the 2.0 is worth about 200 bucks by itself; this will help you offest your costs.
IMHO: Along with the bell (for the starter motor location), the Mustang II oil pan and pick-up are THE most critical items to have, as most of the other items are far easier to work around. Yes, you could modify a different pan, but not having it leak is important (I can build a great roll cage, but it won't hold oil).
Bill
Quote from: pintobassdude on August 12, 2008, 07:14:21 AM
Wow MAN!
Thank you so much for all your help mr 71HotrodPinto!!!!
I really appreciate the fact you took the time to look into all that stuff. It has given me a better idea of what I am going to need!. So those links you sent me pretty much cover the shell of the tranny but contain no internals which I would have to buy separately?
Well I am going to try my luck with MII's. The town I was in where the pinto was I saw 2 of them! one was fully restored and looked pretty sweet, but the other looked like it was sitting there so maybe I will go knock on his door and try to work something out as well. I have already been to my local yard many times, no mustang II's anywhere!
I appreciate your help and I will keep in touch with you for sure!
Not a problem. Just do me a favor and plan at least a year to do this right. As said this swap can go well but its not a slam dunk. There are rare, hard to find parts,(sometimes not, if you get lucky or pay enough for them) that are needed, time to lay it out correctly and last but never least , life will get in the way so you have to lay your project aside for a time or 4. So Just keep this in mind before cutting up your ride.
That said , the C4 transmission is Modular. The transmission is removable from the bellhousing. Many different c4s will work with many different bells. So you don't NEED to find a shell to put parts into. However you can do it that way. Best way to start is to get a Haynes C4 trans book from your local auto-zone, kragen, etc. Then read up on the trans and see what makes it tick. Then check the local craiglist for c4 transmissions. Some people just want to clear out there garage. Then you can put the bellhousing it came with on ebay for a few dollars to start you on your way. ( I paid for about 60% of my parts on my V8 conversion by reselling my stuff )
After all that this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many other issues that would take a book to fit it all into. Ask and learn one issue at a time.
Robert
I forgot to mention that this car has many things that might help offset the cost of the conversion. If you do it right with lots of new and reliable parts it will still cost a fairly good amount of cash but everything helps.
The 2.0 if in good condition will bring a 100 or so depending on many factors. the bellhousing for the 2.0/C4 interface is a HIGHLY sought after bell. Lots of folks are after that for their Turbo 2.3/C4 setups. Ive seen them go for a couple hundred and even more on ebay.
You will NEED an 8in rear end out of a later Pinto V6 model. Those are harder and harder to find.
The drive shaft doesn't need any modification but you should have it rebuilt and balanced.
The radiator is a pain in the pocket book ( Read Custom or Griffen aluminum Radiator $250+). The pinto has a very small front and the tallest radiator you can fit is about 16" tall. Otherwise it will go below the front valance or into the hood. I put a 27 x 16 x 2 in mine and had to cut the front radiator core support almost out completely and then made some support out of square tubing. Fabrication time!
As mentioned the C4 Mustang II bellhousing, block plate, flexplate 28oz balance, torque converter, oil pan, oil pump pickup.
Headers are at best a nightmare. Hooker still makes headers for them but at around $500 uncoated they aren't cheap. Or you can get early 65 mustang style "log" manifolds. Or Again with the mustang II, the manifolds for that car work well. I went the road untraveled by buying older mustang II headers and then cutting them up almost completely and modifying them to work and fit just the way i wanted. They don't hit the steering shaft (cable) and the collector is just about 1/4" away from the floorboard. WAS ALOT OF WORK!!! 6 weekends worth.
Don't forget the battery should go in the trunk now to help offset the weight let alone get it out of the heat of the tiny engine bay.
This is the short list LOL! hope not to scare you , just educate you.
Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 12, 2008, 10:46:38 PM
........You will NEED an 8in rear end out of a later Pinto V6 model. Those are harder and harder to find.
The drive shaft doesn't need any modification but you should have it rebuilt and balanced......
Not all V6 Pintos had the 8" (not all Mustang IIs had them either). I would hate to hear of anyone buying an axle out of a "V6" Pinto, or even a Pinto wagon thinking they were getting the right one, only wind up with another 6.75". Also, after 30 years who knows what has been swapped out so be careful when looking.
The driveshaft length is fine UNTIL the axle is swapped out. When swapping from a 6.75" to an 8" a shorter shaft is needed. It is my experience that one 45.5" O/C works great for a C4-8" combo. This can be had at almost any JY; 79-86 fox body Mustang, or 94-97 Areostar AWD (alum.) rear shaft. Be warned for either: Use the correct PINTO u-joints, and keep the 'front' the 'front'.
Bill
Quote from: 77turbopinto on August 13, 2008, 05:47:31 AM
Not all V6 Pintos had the 8" (not all Mustang IIs had them either). I would hate to hear of anyone buying an axle out of a "V6" Pinto, or even a Pinto wagon thinking they were getting the right one, only wind up with another 6.75". Also, after 30 years who knows what has been swapped out so be careful when looking.
The driveshaft length is fine UNTIL the axle is swapped out. When swapping from a 6.75" to an 8" a shorter shaft is needed. It is my experience that one 45.5" O/C works great for a C4-8" combo. This can be had at almost any JY; 79-86 fox body Mustang, or 94-97 Areostar AWD (alum.) rear shaft. Be warned for either: Use the correct PINTO u-joints, and keep the 'front' the 'front'.
Bill
Wont fit? Hmmm i guess i have to pull it out and stop using it.......
Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 07:39:54 AM
Wont fit? Hmmm i guess i have to pull it out and stop using it.......
"Fit" is a realtive term. Yes, people do just use what they have, don't think twice about it, and don't have any issues, but the fact of the matter is the 8" rear pinion yoke is further 'foward' than the one on the 6.75" rear. DEPENEDING on the tranny and rear used, swapped to, or relocated to, and/or IF the ORIGINAL rear or driveshaft had ever been swapped at some point in the cars' history, it might or might not cause a problem.
Also, there is the fact that the Pinto rear u-joint has two different size caps. This is something that has left people stranded in the middle of no-where because they did not know about it when they swapped parts.
My goal in posting this information was to make people aware of this so they might avoid having problems. The last thing I would want posted is: "If I had known what to look for....."
Bill
Ok,well here it is.
The car has been in the family since new. So I know the shaft never been swapped out. The 71 i have had the c4 with the 6.75 rear stock with 3.18s. I reused the original stock driveshaft with the same ( not original) HD u-joints that i had it balanced with when i was still using the 6.75 rear.
I got a good condition 8" out of a 76 V6 Pinto coupe and then swapped it out. The shaft still had around 3/4 of an inch before it bottomed out into the trans. I then put 3000 miles on it before i swapped in the V8. Still have that 3/4 of an inch that i can push the shaft into the trans with the conversion and thats with the drivers side head as close as possible to the wire harness that comes out of the firewall. (little too close really).
Realisticly most splines in the yoke are somewhat worn out after 300000 miles and if you could push the shaft in that would actually do more for reliability with the torque of a V8.
Im really not understanding the different size cap issue because if i look at the ujoints that are availble for our pintos, i only see one set of part#s for 71-80 All.
So as far as his situation stands, If he truly has the stock 72 C4 then yes his driveshaft rebuilt and balanced with HD u-joints will fit just fine with mild V8 street duty.
Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 09:38:10 PM
Ok,well here it is.
The car has been in the family since new. So I know the shaft never been swapped out. The 71 i have had the c4 with the 6.75 rear stock with 3.18s. I reused the original stock driveshaft with the same ( not original) HD u-joints that i had it balanced with when i was still using the 6.75 rear.
I got a good condition 8" out of a 76 V6 Pinto coupe and then swapped it out. The shaft still had around 3/4 of an inch before it bottomed out into the trans. I then put 3000 miles on it before i swapped in the V8. Still have that 3/4 of an inch that i can push the shaft into the trans with the conversion and thats with the drivers side head as close as possible to the wire harness that comes out of the firewall. (little too close really)......
Here it is:
I did not say that YOURS did not work, but you imply I did (please point out were I did). What I
did say is that it won't necessarily work out for EVERYONE like it did for YOU, and that they should look before they just toss everything together.
I have seen 'significant' differences between driveshaft lengths in Pintos with the same drivetrain combinations. I can also say that sometimes a different driveshaft is needed because I have HAD to swap a driveshaft (2 actually) because
I did not have correct clearance at the yoke after installing an 8" rear. (not even sure he needs to at this point) I posted that a different driveshaft would be 'needed', and that was inccorect, I should have said 'might', but the fact of the differences of the pinion locations is still true.
You seem to indicate that you re-located the engine/tranny; this is also something that not everybody does, as some installers locate the engine by the tranny.
Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 09:38:10 PM
.......So as far as his situation stands, If he truly has the stock 72 C4 then yes his driveshaft rebuilt and balanced with HD u-joints will fit just fine with mild V8 street duty.
Even with the "If" in that statement, I don't think I would make a claim like that without either asking a bunch of questions, or looking everything over myself. (please note I did not say that you should not).
Also, I have never needed to rebalance a driveshaft, but its not a bad idea (please note I did not say that you did not need to).
Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 09:38:10 PM
....... Im really not understanding the different size cap issue because if i look at the ujoints that are availble for our pintos, i only see one set of part#s for 71-80 All......
YES, as you mentioned, they are a 'set', one part number for the FRONT, and one for the REAR. WHY the different numbers? The rear has two different size caps; two that fit the shaft, two LARGER ones to fit in the pinion yoke (properly). Someone CAN install two 'fronts' and bolt the driveshaft in, but that is asking for trouble. (please note I did not say you would have problems)
One note: Sometimes I have seen the '80 showing a different number for the rear than the '71-79 and I have never found out why. (please note that I did not say that you could not find out why)
Bill
So Mr 71HotRodPinto
From what I understand I can use any C4 trans as long as I use the smaller Mustang II bellhousing? In that case would that mean that the non bellhousing part of the tranny would fit even it is out of a bigger car?(the actual housing minus the bell) SO what I mean is: The only part of the tranny that would interfere with the firewall would be the bellhousing? or would the rest of the size of the tranny need the tranny tunnel to be modded?
One more question but would the Mustang II bellhousing only bolt up to a 5.0L out of a mustang II or any 5.0?
Thanks for your help, I hope these aren't stupid questions, i am only 19!
Yesterday I went to a local show and met a guy with a V8 pinto, he was great nice and cool and gave me lots of info but he talked soooo fast I couldnt understand half the stuff he said to me! BUT he has a shop and has offered me his help and gave me his number. (his son has a V8 monza and he says that his pinto handles perfectly fine and hooks REAL well!)
I also a couple of days before that went over to a man named Tom Morana's house. He used to race a 72 pinto in the 9's (my father told me about him) his shop used to be called afFORDable performance but he is out now and just works out of his garage. He has a website if you search his name but he is really into turboing V6's now. His pinto has a 460 ;Dbut he used to have a 351C in it that he said scared every chevy off the road!
Thanks guys!