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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

V8 fitting into stock C4?

Started by pintobassdude, August 11, 2008, 05:29:48 PM

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pintobassdude

So Mr 71HotRodPinto

From what I understand I can use any C4 trans as long as I use the smaller Mustang II bellhousing? In that case would that mean that the non bellhousing part of the tranny would fit even it is out of a bigger car?(the actual  housing minus the bell) SO what I mean is: The only part of the tranny that would interfere with the firewall would be the bellhousing? or would the rest of the size of the tranny need the tranny tunnel to be modded?

One more question but would the Mustang II bellhousing only bolt up to a 5.0L out of a mustang II or any 5.0?

Thanks for your help, I hope these aren't stupid questions, i am only 19!

Yesterday I went to a local show and met a guy with a V8 pinto, he was great nice and cool and gave me lots of info but he talked soooo fast I couldnt understand half the stuff he said to me! BUT he has a shop and has offered me his help and gave me his number. (his son has a V8 monza and he says that his pinto handles perfectly fine and hooks REAL well!)

I also a couple of days before that went over to a man named Tom Morana's house. He used to race a 72 pinto in the 9's (my father told me about him) his shop used to be called afFORDable performance but he is out now and just works out of his garage. He has a website if you search his name but he is really into turboing V6's now. His pinto has a 460 ;Dbut he used to have a 351C in it that he said scared every chevy off the road!

Thanks guys!

77turbopinto

Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 09:38:10 PM
Ok,well here it is.
The car has been in the family since new. So I know the shaft  never been swapped out. The 71 i have had the c4 with the 6.75 rear stock with 3.18s.  I reused the original stock driveshaft with the same ( not original) HD u-joints that i had it balanced with when i was still using the 6.75 rear.
I got a good condition 8" out of a 76 V6 Pinto coupe and then swapped it out. The shaft still had around 3/4 of an inch before it bottomed out into the trans. I then put 3000 miles on it before i swapped in the V8. Still have that 3/4 of an inch that i can push the shaft into the trans with the conversion and thats with the drivers side head as close as possible to the wire harness that comes out of the firewall. (little too close really)......

Here it is:

I did not say that YOURS did not work, but you imply I did (please point out were I did). What I did say is that it won't necessarily work out for EVERYONE like it did for YOU, and that they should look before they just toss everything together.

I have seen 'significant' differences between driveshaft lengths in Pintos with the same drivetrain combinations. I can also say that sometimes a different driveshaft is needed because I have HAD to swap a driveshaft (2 actually) because I did not have correct clearance at the yoke after installing an 8" rear. (not even sure he needs to at this point) I posted that a different driveshaft would be 'needed', and that was inccorect, I should have said 'might', but the fact of the differences of the pinion locations is still true.

You seem to indicate that you re-located the engine/tranny; this is also something that not everybody does, as some installers locate the engine by the tranny.

Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 09:38:10 PM
.......So as far as his situation stands, If he truly has the stock 72 C4 then yes his driveshaft rebuilt and balanced with HD u-joints will fit just fine with mild V8 street duty.

Even with the "If" in that statement, I don't think I would make a claim like that without either asking a bunch of questions, or looking everything over myself. (please note I did not say that you should not).

Also, I have never needed to rebalance a driveshaft, but its not a bad idea (please note I did not say that you did not need to).

Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 09:38:10 PM
....... Im really not understanding the different size cap issue because if i look at the ujoints that are availble for our pintos, i only see one set of part#s for 71-80 All......

YES, as you mentioned, they are a 'set', one part number for the FRONT, and one for the REAR. WHY the different numbers? The rear has two different size caps; two that fit the shaft, two LARGER ones to fit in the pinion yoke (properly). Someone CAN install two 'fronts' and bolt the driveshaft in, but that is asking for trouble. (please note I did not say you would have problems)

One note: Sometimes I have seen the '80 showing a different number for the rear than the '71-79 and I have never found out why. (please note that I did not say that you could not find out why)



Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

71hotrodpinto

Ok,well here it is.
The car has been in the family since new. So I know the shaft  never been swapped out. The 71 i have had the c4 with the 6.75 rear stock with 3.18s.  I reused the original stock driveshaft with the same ( not original) HD u-joints that i had it balanced with when i was still using the 6.75 rear.
I got a good condition 8" out of a 76 V6 Pinto coupe and then swapped it out. The shaft still had around 3/4 of an inch before it bottomed out into the trans. I then put 3000 miles on it before i swapped in the V8. Still have that 3/4 of an inch that i can push the shaft into the trans with the conversion and thats with the drivers side head as close as possible to the wire harness that comes out of the firewall. (little too close really).

Realisticly most splines in the yoke are somewhat worn out after 300000 miles and if you could push the shaft in that would actually do more for reliability with the torque of a V8.

Im really not understanding the different size cap issue because if i look at the ujoints that are availble for our pintos, i only see one set of part#s for 71-80 All.

So as far as his situation stands, If he truly has the stock 72 C4 then yes his driveshaft rebuilt and balanced with HD u-joints will fit just fine with mild V8 street duty.


95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

77turbopinto

Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 13, 2008, 07:39:54 AM

Wont fit? Hmmm i guess i have to pull it out and stop using it.......

"Fit" is a realtive term. Yes, people do just use what they have, don't think twice about it, and don't have any issues, but the fact of the matter is the 8" rear pinion yoke is further 'foward' than the one on the 6.75" rear. DEPENEDING on the tranny and rear used, swapped to, or relocated to, and/or IF the ORIGINAL rear or driveshaft had ever been swapped at some point in the cars' history, it might or might not cause a problem.

Also, there is the fact that the Pinto rear u-joint has two different size caps. This is something that has left people stranded in the middle of no-where because they did not know about it when they swapped parts.

My goal in posting this information was to make people aware of this so they might avoid having problems. The last thing I would want posted is: "If I had known what to look for....."


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

71hotrodpinto

Quote from: 77turbopinto on August 13, 2008, 05:47:31 AM
Not all V6 Pintos had the 8" (not all Mustang IIs had them either). I would hate to hear of anyone buying an axle out of a "V6" Pinto, or even a Pinto wagon thinking they were getting the right one, only wind up with another 6.75". Also, after 30 years who knows what has been swapped out so be careful when looking.

The driveshaft length is fine UNTIL the axle is swapped out. When swapping from a 6.75" to an 8" a shorter shaft is needed. It is my experience that one 45.5" O/C works great for a C4-8" combo. This can be had at almost any JY; 79-86 fox body Mustang, or 94-97 Areostar AWD (alum.) rear shaft. Be warned for either: Use the correct PINTO u-joints, and keep the 'front' the 'front'.

Bill


Wont fit? Hmmm i guess i have to pull it out and stop using it.......


95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

77turbopinto

Quote from: 71hotrodpinto on August 12, 2008, 10:46:38 PM
........You will NEED an 8in rear end out of a later Pinto V6 model. Those are harder and harder to find.
The drive shaft doesn't need  any modification but you should have it rebuilt and balanced......

Not all V6 Pintos had the 8" (not all Mustang IIs had them either). I would hate to hear of anyone buying an axle out of a "V6" Pinto, or even a Pinto wagon thinking they were getting the right one, only wind up with another 6.75". Also, after 30 years who knows what has been swapped out so be careful when looking.

The driveshaft length is fine UNTIL the axle is swapped out. When swapping from a 6.75" to an 8" a shorter shaft is needed. It is my experience that one 45.5" O/C works great for a C4-8" combo. This can be had at almost any JY; 79-86 fox body Mustang, or 94-97 Areostar AWD (alum.) rear shaft. Be warned for either: Use the correct PINTO u-joints, and keep the 'front' the 'front'.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

71hotrodpinto

Quote from: pintobassdude on August 12, 2008, 07:14:21 AM
Wow MAN!

Thank you so much for all your help mr 71HotrodPinto!!!!

I really appreciate the fact you took the time to look into all that stuff. It has given me a better idea of what I am going to need!. So those links you sent me pretty much cover the shell of the tranny but contain no internals which I would have to buy separately?

Well I am going to try my luck with MII's. The town I was in where the pinto was I saw 2 of them! one was fully restored and looked pretty sweet, but the other looked like it was sitting there so maybe I will go knock on his door and try to work something out as well. I have already been to my local yard many times, no mustang II's anywhere!

I appreciate your help and I will keep in touch with you for sure!



Not a problem. Just do me a favor and plan at least a year to do this right.  As said this swap can go well but its not a slam dunk. There are rare, hard to find parts,(sometimes not, if you get lucky or pay enough for them) that are needed, time to lay it out correctly and last but never least , life will get in the way so you have to lay your project aside for a time or 4. So Just keep this in mind before cutting up your ride.

That said , the C4 transmission is Modular. The transmission is removable from the bellhousing. Many different c4s will work with many different bells. So you don't NEED to find a shell to put parts into. However you can do it that way. Best way to start is to get a Haynes C4 trans book from your local auto-zone, kragen, etc. Then read up on the trans and see what makes it tick. Then check the local craiglist for c4 transmissions. Some people just want to clear out there garage. Then you can put the bellhousing it came with on ebay for a few dollars to start you on your way. ( I paid for about 60% of my parts on my V8 conversion by reselling my stuff )

After all that this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many other issues that would take a book to fit it all into. Ask and learn one issue at a time.
Robert

I forgot to mention that this car has many things that might help offset the cost of the conversion. If you do it right with lots of new and reliable parts it will still cost a fairly good amount of cash but everything helps.
The 2.0 if in good condition will bring a 100 or so depending on many factors. the bellhousing for the 2.0/C4 interface is a HIGHLY sought after bell. Lots of folks are after that for their Turbo 2.3/C4 setups. Ive seen them go for a couple hundred and even more on ebay.

You will NEED an 8in rear end out of a later Pinto V6 model. Those are harder and harder to find.
The drive shaft doesn't need  any modification but you should have it rebuilt and balanced.
The radiator is a pain in the pocket book ( Read Custom or Griffen aluminum Radiator $250+). The pinto has a very small front and the tallest radiator you can fit is about 16" tall. Otherwise it will go below the front valance or into the hood. I put a 27 x 16 x 2 in mine and had to cut the front radiator core support almost out completely and then made some support out of square tubing. Fabrication time!
  As mentioned the C4 Mustang II bellhousing, block plate, flexplate 28oz balance, torque converter, oil pan, oil pump pickup.
Headers are at best a nightmare. Hooker still makes headers for them but at around $500 uncoated they aren't cheap. Or you can get early 65 mustang style "log" manifolds. Or Again with the mustang II, the manifolds for that car work well. I went the road untraveled by buying older mustang II headers and then cutting them up almost completely and modifying them to work and fit just the way i wanted. They don't hit the steering shaft (cable) and the collector is just about 1/4" away from the floorboard. WAS ALOT OF WORK!!! 6 weekends worth.
Don't forget the battery should go in the trunk now to help offset the weight let alone get it out of the heat of the tiny engine bay.

This is the short list LOL! hope not to scare you , just educate you.


95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

77turbopinto

Quote from: 71pintoracer on August 11, 2008, 07:19:50 PM
The V8 will not bolt up to the pinto bellhousing. The '72 might even have a C3. MII's had a smaller V8 bell. A standard V8 bell will not fit w/o modifying the firewall. And Pintony will curse at you if you do that. Oh wait, he is going to curse at you for even thinking about a V8 swap.  >:(

The C3 came out in 74, so unless it was swapped in there should not be one in there.

No, he won't, but if the project goes unfinished he WILL give you a BIG "I told you so...".

No matter what year Pinto is done (later ones are 'easier'), a V8 swap requires lots of modification (cutting) to the car. I have seen so many 'hack-job' v8 swaps it's not funny. IF someone wants to do a V8 swap, go ahead, but be warned it is not an easy thing to do 'correctly'.

Quote from: CHEAPRACER on August 11, 2008, 09:32:14 PM
The stock 4 cyl c4 also has some weeker internals then the the v8 version.

That is correct, a V8 will kill it in short order.

As mentioned any non-2.0/2.3 C4 SHOULD do the trick, but you should use the Gov. from your 4-banger one. Also, your bell for the 2.0 is worth about 200 bucks by itself; this will help you offest your costs.


IMHO: Along with the bell (for the starter motor location), the Mustang II oil pan and pick-up are THE most critical items to have, as most of the other items are far easier to work around. Yes, you could modify a different pan, but not having it leak is important (I can build a great roll cage, but it won't hold oil).

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintobassdude

Wow MAN!

Thank you so much for all your help mr 71HotrodPinto!!!!

I really appreciate the fact you took the time to look into all that stuff. It has given me a better idea of what I am going to need!. So those links you sent me pretty much cover the shell of the tranny but contain no internals which I would have to buy seperately?

Well I am going to try my luck with MII's. The town I was in where the pinto was I saw 2 of them! one was fully restored and looked pretty sweet, but the other looked like it was sitting there so maybe I will go knock on his door and try to work something out as well. I have already been to my local yard many times, no mustang II's anywhere!

I appreciate your help and I will keep in touch with you for sure!


71hotrodpinto

Now now , Anything thats going to be fun in the end is worth a little work right?
Yes finding a complete C4 from a Mustang II is going to be a challenge to say the least. SO just peice it together. However you WILL have to get a doner V8 C4. As the C4 that did come in the pintos have a different valve body, a smaller clutch pack with only 3 clutches in the low reverse drum, and 4 in the other verses 4 or 5 and 5 or 6 (aftermarket HP stuff). Also it has a different govenor. otherwise its the same. I took my Pinto C4 and put all V8 internals in it. It works but probably cheaper to get it all at once especially if its your first transmission.

If you do get another C4 for your doner get a 70 and up trans. The earlier models have a 24 spline input shaft and youll need a 26. That just complicates things more.

I'll start you off.

C4 Bellhousing

C4 Inspection Cover

C4 Block Plate

Youll still need a torque convertor, and a flexplate. They are both specific as well. The convertor has a 9 3/8 bolt spacing and the flexplate has 144 teeth. The only one in the V8 ford group.Plus all that stuff was only made for the Mustang II for 3 years 75, 76 ,77.


This is the cleanest way to do it, You can do it MUCH easier by stuffing the larger common as nails 157 bell and youll have a plethora of choices on convertors, flexplates, etc etc. But then you HAVE to start pounding or cutting the firewall.
BTW be carefull about pounding the tunnel. The Heater box is just above the tunnel and made of fiberglass. It will get destroyed. Remove it if you want to keep it in good shape.
I have lots more info to share, just let me know your serious and ill devulge. Ive already spent over an hour researching the parts for ya so far and i need to get moving to the next thing LOL!
GL!


95' 302,Forged Pistons,Polished rods
B303,1.7 Rockers,beehives
'68 port/polish heads                   
Coated Must II headers
Edelbrock Airgap
Holley570,Msd dist,CraneHI6
Mil

pintobassdude

I assume finding the C4 from a Mustang II is quite the task?

Well this is grrrrreat!  :accident:

CHEAPRACER

The stock 4 cyl c4 also has some weeker internals then the the v8 version.
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

71pintoracer

Just kidding Pintony!!  ;D
1. If the trans is indeed a C4 it will work, you just need to change the bell to one for a V8.
2. The MII V8 had a smaller bell. And a smaller flywheel.
3. If you can't find a MII bell (good luck) and have to use the bigger bell you will have to modify the firewall like I did.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

pintobassdude

So obviously the guy selling me the car is wrong then?

Well with the C4 I know I won't have to go all out on the firewall like 71PintoRacer had to for his T5. But you guys are saying I NEED to change the tranny to a C4 from a mustang II because the stock pinto one will NOT WORK?

Just clarify that for me guys if you can!

Thanks a bunch!


71pintoracer

modified firewall in my car.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

71pintoracer

The V8 will not bolt up to the pinto bellhousing. The '72 might even have a C3. MII's had a smaller V8 bell. A standard V8 bell will not fit w/o modifying the firewall. And Pintony will curse at you if you do that. Oh wait, he is going to curse at you for even thinking about a V8 swap.  >:(
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

pintobassdude

Hello all,

first of all is the C4 the stock tranny in Pinto's?

second of all will a 302 bolt up to the bellhousing of this stock C4 or will I have to get one out of a Mustang II in order for a V8 to bolt up to it? specifically a stock 72 runabout. It is the car I am looking into purchasing and the seller claims it has the stock C4 which he says bolts up to a 302.

Also if anyone knows the stall converter that came in these things I would appreciate it!

Thanks a bunch!


Andrew