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Author Topic: manifold cooling  (Read 3244 times)

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Offline wx7pinto

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manifold cooling
« on: August 22, 2006, 09:07:26 AM »
I have a 79 Pinto wagon I have been slowly customizing for 18 years, mostly just to keeping it running. 18 years ago I removed all the air pump tubing and  converted to a small air cleaner removing all the excess stuff, put on a header, slightly modified cam. Lots of chromed parts etc. Has been running great all these years till this year. This year had a leak in the heater core so I replaced it and decided to put stainless braid on many of the hoses, (something I always wanted to do) including the metal pipes to the heater that run along the valve cover. (Always thought they were the ugliest part of the engine compartment.) One of those pipes had a tube running to what I now guess is the manifold cooler intake below the carburetor. I assumed it was associated with the choke, I had replaced the original automatic choke with a manual one 18 years ago and it has worked fine, so I thought removing this tube would not be a problem, I am always trying for less clutter in the engine compartment. Now it starts with great difficulty and only idles very slow, only with my foot all the way to the floor and won't run at all.
Do I need to put the tube back? I saved all the parts so it will be easy but just wanted to know if that is necessary or do I just need a carburetor rebuild? (Haven't done that for 17 years! but it was running fine up till now.)

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2006, 09:16:12 AM »
If the car ran fine for 18 years without it, I doubt that is the problem.

Was this a sudden problem, or has it gotten worse over a long time?

Have you tested the fuel pump and filter?

More later,
Bill
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Offline goodolboydws

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 10:56:26 AM »
I may be mis reading your post, but my take is that you just removed/disconnected that intake manifold pipe recently, correct? If it was running fine until you removed it, that should be your answer.

If so, I think that that pipe, (if it contains coolant) is for HEATING (at least of the time) as well as cooling the base of the carburetor, to assist in more complete fuel vaporization when the engine is warming up, AND to keep the carb running within a narrower temperature range than it would if the coolant did not circulate through. This would tend to make it easier to adjust the carb for decent operation under varying conditions.   

Offline wx7pinto

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 11:16:14 AM »
The problem just now occurred, that's why I assume it was related to removing the hose that runs coolant to the manifold. I just don't understand why it would affect the engine so much since when the engine is cold the coolant isn't going to have any effect until it warmed up. I'm not the most mechanically inclined, that's why I like working on my Pinto, its pretty basic. So this coolant line doesn't seem to fit the simple idea of basic carburetor operation.

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 12:47:20 PM »
I had to read you post again, but I am still un-sure of the timing.

Did you try putting it all the way it was before this problem?

Bill
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Offline wx7pinto

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 02:09:48 PM »
I have not put the coolant line back on, I probably will try it tonight, it should not be to difficult to do, I just wondered if anyone else had this experience and why coolant is needed at all for the engine to start. It just doesn't make sense yet.

Offline onefarmer

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 03:22:49 PM »
I may be mis reading your post, but my take is that you just removed/disconnected that intake manifold pipe recently, correct? If it was running fine until you removed it, that should be your answer.

If so, I think that that pipe, (if it contains coolant) is for HEATING (at least of the time) as well as cooling the base of the carburetor, to assist in more complete fuel vaporization when the engine is warming up, AND to keep the carb running within a narrower temperature range than it would if the coolant did not circulate through. This would tend to make it easier to adjust the carb for decent operation under varying conditions.   



This is correct. It keeps the intake warm for better fuel atomization. Removing it should not effect how the engine runs when it is cold. If your having issues getting it started look else where. Lost a vacumm plug or bumped the timing?

Offline wx7pinto

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 08:14:48 AM »
Thanks everybody for the suggestions, especially onefarmer because I was trying a variety of things and got it started but found out there's a bigger problem going on. Most likely the hard starting was due to the fact I store this for the winter and haven't run it this year until now because I had so much work to do on it. Now I find when it is completely warmed up the header is glowing a dull red, it is so hot! My first thought is the catalytic converter I had to put on for mandatory emission testing is plugged. Remember I have removed all the air pollution add-ons, so the catalytic converter doesn't have a chance of working correctly without the rest of the mechanism to make it work. I will start another thread on this topic to see if anyone has any better ideas on why this is running so hot.

Offline onefarmer

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 01:34:35 PM »
Exhaust temps that hot would indicate a lean mixture or maybe a plugged converter. All the air pump does is supply fresh air just past the exhaust valve to continue the burning process a bit longer for those hydocarbons that didn't get burnt in the cylinder. Removing it shouldn't do much.

On my 77 years ago the first thing I did was plug the egr and remove the air pump. Had a milage improvment but no adverse effect on the cat.

Offline goodolboydws

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Re: manifold cooling
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 06:07:39 PM »

Cars that sit for a long time can have all sorts of interesting things happen. Mice and insects can chew up upholstery and wiring, build nests in places that cause a problem, like in the ductwork, or exhaust, etc.

 
Anyway, looking at it from the other side of the mixture, maybe there's a partially plugged cat (or a restriction of something ELSE in the exhaust system ahead of the cat) combined with too much partially unburned gas making it through the cylinders and into the exhaust, and it's continuing to burn there in quantity instead of in the cylinders or the cat, raising the temperature in that part of the exhaust system to a higher level than "normal". If so, I would think that the plugs could just as well be showing evidence of a too RICH running condition.

 When a cat is partially plugged, the cat, (which is supposed to run at a fairly high temperature normally), is no longer able to be sufficiently cooled by the now lessened amount of air able to be flowing through it quickly enough to carry the "normal" amount of heat with it, instead allowing additional heat to be transferred to a smaller area of the entire exhaust system by remaining longer than "normal" inside the cat and maybe even backing up closer to the exhaust manifold, in the header pipe and exhaust pipes. 

Removing an air pump CAN make a cat be much more liable to plug up-eventually, and usually does IF an engine is run long enough under those conditions.  Many things can work to improve performance over the short term, yet cause other problems or cause problem later on. There ain't no free lunch, sooner or later, SOMEBODY pays.

When an air pump is removed from a system with a cat still present, the volume of relatively clean air being fed into the exhaust is diminished, while the unburned hydrocarbons making it to that point are not. This results in less than optimal conditions for the complete combustion of any residual hydrocarbons still present while passing through the cat. With incomplete combustion, there will be, as a minimum, sooty accumulations building up, and there is also likely to be a crustier type of buildup, both similar to what forms on spark plugs over time when presented with a too rich mixture of gas to air or when  having to handle excessive oil in addition to a proper fuel to air mix coming from the carb.

Looking at it from the best case scenario,  if the fuel air mixture provided by the carb is relatively close to optimal much of the time, and the ignition system is working close to optimally muchof the time also, it may take quite a long time to cause a problem, as there will be a fairly small amount of unburned hydrocarbons actually reaching the cat, so any buildup from incomplete combustion would be likely to take a long time to compromise the cats' performance.  Obviously, the farther from optimal the mixture is, and the less efficient the ignition system is, the sooner the problem would tend to start becoming serious enough to be noticeable.

I had one partially plugged cat (on a very cheap, just acquired car) and it was running so hot that nearly the entire cat itself was able to be glowing orange/red with the engine being run for only a very short time.   On that one, it turned out that there was a slow coolant leak as well as the slow internal oil usage from the engine both going into the exhaust and over time there was a build up of carbon on the honeycombing of the cat that gradually diminished it's capacity to allow air to pass through. Taking the cat off temporarily allowed the slow coolant leakage to be much more apparent as a slightly steamy fog out the exhaust.

On that car, taking the cat off temporarily allowed the slow coolant leakage to be apparent as a slightly steamy fog out the exhaust pipe that the cat had been burning well enough to hide.
(I didn't keep the car, as in the process of disconnecting the cat, I discovered that the car had been stitched together from 2 others-and not that well. From the exterior and interior it was undetectable, but the frame and floor told the story.  The body and paint looked fine, so the body shop evidently did a good job on that part of the job. I've been closely inspecting car frames and unibody support structures on any prospective cars ever since.) 

It's not uncommon to hear of someone getting better mileage when a car with an early clean air system, (mainly comprised of just an EGR, air pump, and cat) is circumvented. Without the drag from the air pump, ANY engine's performance should improve. If the carburetor is not subsequently readjusted, the engine is then being presented with a cooler, denser, easier to ignite mixture, so performance may also improve significantly from that.  However, the exhaust is tremendously dirtier when this type of removal is done and the car will not be allowed in most states to even be tested to find out if it will pass a clean air test in such an altered condition.